Yes they that hear shall live .Those in whom their temporal corrupted spirits have returned to the father and flesh that has returned to the dust. Will not hear . Having no means to make it possible. They carry out of the judgement they will be cast into the second death never to rise to new spirit life forever and ever.
IF there was a Rapture at the start off a 7 year tribulation period, then
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It would seem that particular all represents as many as the Father has given to the Son.
The timing is the "last day, ' the Lord day. In the twinkling of the eye those who hear the call will arise and receive the promise of a new incorruptible body and the execution of the judgment as the second death. That first creation will go up in smoke never rising to new life.
There will not be those who have received their new incorruptible bodies (neither male nor female, Jew nor Gentile as the bride of Christ) and those who remain in there bodies of death walking around like Zombies at the same time for a literal thousand years.
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall "rise again" in the resurrection at the last day.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Six times in John the Holy Spirit emphasizes the timing the "last day". The day of resurrection and the second death for those who know not Christ..Just like in the days of Noah.This time the end of the world .
Here's how I see it.
Jesus was giving "the parables of the kingdom" ("the kingdom OF THE HEAVENS" [not meaning "UP IN Heaven," to be clear]).
The parables in the Gospels very often pertain to Israel (I believe MOST do), including their "future" (far future to that time). But especially the parables in Matthew. (I'm not saying that "the Gentiles" do/will not have any part, when I say this.)
So Jesus is doing the vast majority of the speaking here (teaching them about that... and this is the basis of their LATER Q of Him in Matt24:3 and His drawn out response in both chpts of Matt24-25).
I only see the disciples (in His Matt13 talk) say one thing about "the tares," and that is, "Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field." They are merely asking Him to elaborate on THAT PARABLE [teaching], they are not asking Him (in that request to "declare unto us"), "hey, those tares we [presently] see over there, what do you want us to do about them?" They are just asking Him to elaborate on what He'd said.
Jesus was giving "the parables of the kingdom" ("the kingdom OF THE HEAVENS" [not meaning "UP IN Heaven," to be clear]).
The parables in the Gospels very often pertain to Israel (I believe MOST do), including their "future" (far future to that time). But especially the parables in Matthew. (I'm not saying that "the Gentiles" do/will not have any part, when I say this.)
So Jesus is doing the vast majority of the speaking here (teaching them about that... and this is the basis of their LATER Q of Him in Matt24:3 and His drawn out response in both chpts of Matt24-25).
I only see the disciples (in His Matt13 talk) say one thing about "the tares," and that is, "Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field." They are merely asking Him to elaborate on THAT PARABLE [teaching], they are not asking Him (in that request to "declare unto us"), "hey, those tares we [presently] see over there, what do you want us to do about them?" They are just asking Him to elaborate on what He'd said.
^ oh, and to clarify a bit further, I don't believe it is referring to the MK time period (as in, the end of the MK), but rather "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" that is followed by "the age [singular] to come" [Matt12:32--the MK age (singular)]. "The end [singular] of the age [singular]" is not "the age [singular] to come"/the MK, NOR "this present [/evil] age [singular]" we ["the Church which is His body"] are in "NOW" (at the present time).
IOW, it [Matt13] is telling of the same time period that Jesus' Olivet Discourse [Mt24/Mk13, parts of Lk21] is covering (and He is NOT covering the SUBJECT of our Rapture, by the way, but the point in time STARTING with [in Matt24/Mk13] "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" [the INITIAL ONE of which is in 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"], which correlate with the SEALS of Rev6 [the FIRST ONE being the rider of the white horse with a "bow," often meaning "DECEPTION", aka the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" (2Th2:9a) of the "man of sin" IN HIS TIME (parallel with the "prince THAT SHALL COME" of Dan9:27[26] "FOR ONE WEEK [7-yrs]")])… and that specific future time period is what leads UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (commencing upon His "return" there).
[DURING the trib/those years, Matt24:14 will be being preached in all the world..." (note: "the Church which is His body" will not be present on the earth during that time period)]
IOW, it [Matt13] is telling of the same time period that Jesus' Olivet Discourse [Mt24/Mk13, parts of Lk21] is covering (and He is NOT covering the SUBJECT of our Rapture, by the way, but the point in time STARTING with [in Matt24/Mk13] "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" [the INITIAL ONE of which is in 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"], which correlate with the SEALS of Rev6 [the FIRST ONE being the rider of the white horse with a "bow," often meaning "DECEPTION", aka the "whose coming/advent/arrival/presence/parousia" (2Th2:9a) of the "man of sin" IN HIS TIME (parallel with the "prince THAT SHALL COME" of Dan9:27[26] "FOR ONE WEEK [7-yrs]")])… and that specific future time period is what leads UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (commencing upon His "return" there).
[DURING the trib/those years, Matt24:14 will be being preached in all the world..." (note: "the Church which is His body" will not be present on the earth during that time period)]
What rapture?
The one in rev 14?
Again rev 14 speaks against "NOONE KNOWS THE DAY"
Postrib rapture has no basis.
None
The one in rev 14?
Again rev 14 speaks against "NOONE KNOWS THE DAY"
Postrib rapture has no basis.
None
And i do not believe in the pre-trib rapture..
Thank you for responding you know i sure do not understand all of Gods ways...but wow i do know He is able to complete his work in us, on the earth now and forever even since the beginning of time for us his creation...go figure God has no beginning and no end, He always has been in our humanness we cant grasp such a concept ...yet God is God i cant wait to be with my Abba God forever and ever...(1 tim. 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen...(Ps. 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God...(Ps. 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite...love in Christ Sherril......
View attachment 192150
(Ps. 90:1-2
Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God........
...
View attachment 192150
(Ps. 90:1-2Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God........
I also am in awe of those same components
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I see gathering of still-living people in Matthew 25:31-34, do you agree?
I believe that is at His Second Coming to the earth [where "nations" ARE] (not at our Rapture), do you agree?
I see some being "punished," do you agree? Do you agree that the "goats" do not enter the MK? But the Sheep DO? (or do you see this as not taking place "on the earth" where "nations" are [Rev19:15b and the like], but UP IN Heaven?)
Here's a post I just made in another place (slightly different convo, but may help here):
[quoting my post]
I'm saying that the Isaiah 24:21-22[23] passage (with its "TWO 'punish' words") correlates like this:
--Isaiah 24:21-22a ("punish" ['pit' and 'prison' (I'm not saying this doesn't mean 'death')]) correlates with Revelation 19:19/16:14-16/early-part-of-Rev-20 (at the time of of His Second Coming to the earth--here it says "SLAIN")
[see "And it shall come to pass in that day, thatthe LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison..." correlates with Rev19:19/16:14-16/early-parts-of-Rev20 at the time of His "RETURN" to the earth (only the "righteous" [the "BLESSED"] will ENTER the MK time period; those later born to them are not "born automatically righteous" however)]
--[then] Isaiah 24:22b ("and AFTER MANY DAYS shall they be punished" [that is, after the MK time period]) correlates with Revelation 20:11-15's GWTj (after ppl have been "dead"--"And I saw THE DEAD" ['__ gave up the dead']--which I believe is "the dead, unsaved" of all times--for the final carrying out of the sentence [eternal separation from God, the "second death," the "lake of fire"]; and the only ppl who die in the MK time period are the rebellious, death will be much more rare during that time period! And they won't be being "left alone / let be UNTIL the 'harvest'" but dealt with summarily! and individually! as I see it [during His "reign" and this with His "rod [sceptre] of iron" (righteousness and strength)])
So, I am NOT saying that the first "punish" word (where "the weeping and the gnashing of teeth" takes place, time-wise [in all of its contexts where used]) means ANYTHING like [something that] can reverse one's status (as some are wanting to think I mean). No.
And I AM pointing out the TWO "punish" points in time (of this passage, which I believe correlate to these other passages in Rev19-20 [and other places])
...and I AM saying that the words "tormented" and "in this flame" are used in a context that shows "[still ALIVE] brothers" still have time to change where they are headed (meaning, when the rich man died, his brothers hadn't yet--this is both then [back in that day] and now--in the here and now!--when death occurs for some and not others--and the "rich man who had died" can NEVER change his status as forever separated from God/unsaved--I'm not suggesting he could!)
[end of that post]
____________
Please let me know if anything needs clarifying.
I believe NO "unrighteous" ENTER the MK time period, but only the "BLESSED"/"righteous" (this doesn't count those later BORN to them)… and that Satan is imprisoned DURING the 1000-yrs, so hasn't "sown tares" then/throughout, and is only "loosed out from his prison" when the 1000-yrs are completed, and only then for "a little season/time" (compare "a little season/time" in Jn7:33 & 12:35, to the somewhat contrasted phrase "[been with you] for so long a season/time" [referring to His 3.5yr earthly ministry, MAX], and how the other "a little season/time" usages did not mean something like 50 years or anything like that...). The "[Satan] shall go out to deceive the nations" [and] "to gather them together to battle" [and] "fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them" doesn't seem to me to be the same thing as what "shall send forth His angels" ("and they shall GATHER OUT") does, to me.
[note to readers: I'm pre-trib, so these are not "Rapture" contexts either]
I believe that is at His Second Coming to the earth [where "nations" ARE] (not at our Rapture), do you agree?
I see some being "punished," do you agree? Do you agree that the "goats" do not enter the MK? But the Sheep DO? (or do you see this as not taking place "on the earth" where "nations" are [Rev19:15b and the like], but UP IN Heaven?)
Here's a post I just made in another place (slightly different convo, but may help here):
[quoting my post]
I'm saying that the Isaiah 24:21-22[23] passage (with its "TWO 'punish' words") correlates like this:
--Isaiah 24:21-22a ("punish" ['pit' and 'prison' (I'm not saying this doesn't mean 'death')]) correlates with Revelation 19:19/16:14-16/early-part-of-Rev-20 (at the time of of His Second Coming to the earth--here it says "SLAIN")
[see "And it shall come to pass in that day, thatthe LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison..." correlates with Rev19:19/16:14-16/early-parts-of-Rev20 at the time of His "RETURN" to the earth (only the "righteous" [the "BLESSED"] will ENTER the MK time period; those later born to them are not "born automatically righteous" however)]
--[then] Isaiah 24:22b ("and AFTER MANY DAYS shall they be punished" [that is, after the MK time period]) correlates with Revelation 20:11-15's GWTj (after ppl have been "dead"--"And I saw THE DEAD" ['__ gave up the dead']--which I believe is "the dead, unsaved" of all times--for the final carrying out of the sentence [eternal separation from God, the "second death," the "lake of fire"]; and the only ppl who die in the MK time period are the rebellious, death will be much more rare during that time period! And they won't be being "left alone / let be UNTIL the 'harvest'" but dealt with summarily! and individually! as I see it [during His "reign" and this with His "rod [sceptre] of iron" (righteousness and strength)])
So, I am NOT saying that the first "punish" word (where "the weeping and the gnashing of teeth" takes place, time-wise [in all of its contexts where used]) means ANYTHING like [something that] can reverse one's status (as some are wanting to think I mean). No.
And I AM pointing out the TWO "punish" points in time (of this passage, which I believe correlate to these other passages in Rev19-20 [and other places])
...and I AM saying that the words "tormented" and "in this flame" are used in a context that shows "[still ALIVE] brothers" still have time to change where they are headed (meaning, when the rich man died, his brothers hadn't yet--this is both then [back in that day] and now--in the here and now!--when death occurs for some and not others--and the "rich man who had died" can NEVER change his status as forever separated from God/unsaved--I'm not suggesting he could!)
[end of that post]
____________
Please let me know if anything needs clarifying.
I believe NO "unrighteous" ENTER the MK time period, but only the "BLESSED"/"righteous" (this doesn't count those later BORN to them)… and that Satan is imprisoned DURING the 1000-yrs, so hasn't "sown tares" then/throughout, and is only "loosed out from his prison" when the 1000-yrs are completed, and only then for "a little season/time" (compare "a little season/time" in Jn7:33 & 12:35, to the somewhat contrasted phrase "[been with you] for so long a season/time" [referring to His 3.5yr earthly ministry, MAX], and how the other "a little season/time" usages did not mean something like 50 years or anything like that...). The "[Satan] shall go out to deceive the nations" [and] "to gather them together to battle" [and] "fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them" doesn't seem to me to be the same thing as what "shall send forth His angels" ("and they shall GATHER OUT") does, to me.
[note to readers: I'm pre-trib, so these are not "Rapture" contexts either]
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32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left
Ok,yes i see what you are saying.
Very plausable.
Hmmm
Thank you for that.
Good find.
Made my day actually
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left
Ok,yes i see what you are saying.
Very plausable.
Hmmm
Thank you for that.
Good find.
Made my day actually
Yes the dead shall precede the living but they will be raised ( the dead ) and raptured ( the Living) on the same day..
This actually points against the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture.. Because The return of the LORD Jesus Christ revealed in Matthew 24 includes a clear raising of the dead.. Now if the rapture happened earlier then the living saints would would be raptured before the dead.. This goes against scripture..
The rapture will happen on the day of the second coming of the LORD Jesus Christ..
This actually points against the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture.. Because The return of the LORD Jesus Christ revealed in Matthew 24 includes a clear raising of the dead.. Now if the rapture happened earlier then the living saints would would be raptured before the dead.. This goes against scripture..
The rapture will happen on the day of the second coming of the LORD Jesus Christ..
taking the role of arguing neither for or against a pretrib gathering, but rather just pointing out what doesn't make sense to me, this is not a slam dunk.
If it is true there is a pretrib gathering (I say IF), and if it comes suddenly and unexpectedly, while people are going about their business normally, marrying and throwing parties (as it says), it would be that gathering and THAT appearing that could not be calculated or known as to timing.
if you have read revelation, it becomes quite apparent to you (the reader) that you could fairly easily know when He was coming because there is great detail regarding the horrible things that will happen.
so what I'm trying to convey to you is that you yourself, having read revelation, could follow the timeline of awful events and get a quite good estimation of when He would be coming. And yet it will be unexpectedly? And people will be carrying on as normal amid worldwide famine, decimated water supply, the sun burning men, etc.?
your argument doesn't help your argument. Doesn't mean there IS a pretrib gathering. Just means you might have to drop that part of your argument.
so your own argument comes back on you.
If it is true there is a pretrib gathering (I say IF), and if it comes suddenly and unexpectedly, while people are going about their business normally, marrying and throwing parties (as it says), it would be that gathering and THAT appearing that could not be calculated or known as to timing.
if you have read revelation, it becomes quite apparent to you (the reader) that you could fairly easily know when He was coming because there is great detail regarding the horrible things that will happen.
so what I'm trying to convey to you is that you yourself, having read revelation, could follow the timeline of awful events and get a quite good estimation of when He would be coming. And yet it will be unexpectedly? And people will be carrying on as normal amid worldwide famine, decimated water supply, the sun burning men, etc.?
your argument doesn't help your argument. Doesn't mean there IS a pretrib gathering. Just means you might have to drop that part of your argument.
so your own argument comes back on you.
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1 Thessalonians 4: KJV
16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Nothing i have stated has declared 1 Thessalonians 4 false.. In fact as it says the dead shall Rise first before the Living are raptured and together we shall both be caught up together ( note the risen dead a caught up from earth with the raptured living) into the clouds to meet the returning LORD Jesus Christ..
16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Nothing i have stated has declared 1 Thessalonians 4 false.. In fact as it says the dead shall Rise first before the Living are raptured and together we shall both be caught up together ( note the risen dead a caught up from earth with the raptured living) into the clouds to meet the returning LORD Jesus Christ..
If you are referring to the Second Coming of Christ, it is true that by following the chronology of Revelation you will find that He comes after all the 6th and 7th seal judgments. And all the inhabitants of the earth at that time will see His descent from Heaven.
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)
But if you are talking about the Rapture, Christ says that it will be sudden, unexpected, and unannounced.
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come... Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (Mt 24:42,44)
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Rev 1:7)
But if you are talking about the Rapture, Christ says that it will be sudden, unexpected, and unannounced.
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come... Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (Mt 24:42,44)
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