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If we cannot save ourselves, how can we then condemn ourselves?
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I do have to hope for others. That's the mission; hope to see not one person lost.
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FreeNChrist
Guest
The "we" are the faithful whose salvation is assured. For those who are not the "we", faithfulness is not even an option.
Salvation is assured as long as "we" remain faithful. That is why "we" are hopeful. Surely Peter was one of the "we" and he acknowledges the hope that should be in "we" all. So does Paul.
1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asks you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Titus 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,
Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
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FreeNChrist
Guest
The "we" are the faithful ones who do not turn away.....
"BUT we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved." Hebrews 10:39
No the writer is making a *call* to the reader to persevere in hope and faith. He's not stating a fact as if to say "we, the faithful ones, do not possibly turn away". That's taking the passage out of context.
Hebrews 10
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way opened for us through the curtain of His body, 21 and since we have a high priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold resolutely to the hope we confess, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how to spur one another on to love and good deeds. 25 Let us not neglect meeting together, as some have made a habit, but let us encourage one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
26 If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and raging fire that will consume all adversaries. 28 Anyone who rejected the Law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
32 Remember the early days that you were in the light, when you endured a great conflict in the face of suffering. 33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to ridicule and persecution; at other times you were partners with those who were so treated. 34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, knowing that you yourselves had a better and permanent possession.
35 So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward. 36 You need to persevere, so that after you have done God’s will, you will receive what He has promised. 37 For,
“In just a very while little,
He who is coming will come and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one will live by faith;
and if he shrinks back,
I will take no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved..
The entire passage in context is imploring the reader to remain faithful.
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FreeNChrist
Guest
That mis-understanding is exactly why I brought up that passage, because it speaks to what you are doing. You are applying what is speaking about "them" onto "we". Contrast. Contrast. All through the NT there is a contrast being made between the lost and the saved, miss that and you will do just what you do, apply onto the saved what is speaking about the lost, and just make a mess of everything.
With respect, that's what you're doing. The pronouns "we" and "us" represent the same group of people, where "we" is the subject and "us" is the object. When the writer says "let us", he's talking about the same group as "we": He and the reader. Remember this is a letter sent *to* believers.
When the writer says "do not throw away your confidence...", he's not speaking *about* the lost who have thrown away theirs, he's speaking *to* the reader encouraging them not to. The only section that speaks about the lost is verses 26-31 in contrast to the whole of the passage.
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FreeNChrist
Guest
That "but" is there for a reason. There is a distinction being made between who was and who was not being spoken of before it.
Man I honestly hate this debate anymore, neither side accurately represents the other and it's ALWAYS a "this or that" argument. Just thinking about it as I started reading these post had me out of my seat to go do anything but rehear this again, just right this second I wasn't in the mood for it, but as I was walking away this popped into my head and I wanted to share it.
I disagree with anyone that says or believes we HAVE to do works, on any level. I still to this day, a professing reborn, regenerated, follower of Christ, do not have to do a dang thing. I can still choose to do or not do anything I want.
My next understanding is that a true Christian, someone who has been supernatural changed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, WILL do works, but they will never take credit for it because we know that these works, and the passion that drives them is from God, and God get all the glory because we know that without Him we would never even do these things in the first place. That last point I can only speak for myself and my understanding.
We do not HAVE to do anything, but we WILL do it because of Him. These works are not chain's, not a burden, they are in complete awe of the splendor of our God, and in total gratitude for the undeserved and unearned gift of salvation.
As far as the "can't lose your salvation" issue, I think there are a lot of warnings for us believing Christians to watch and stay aware of false profits leading folks astray. I think it careless to think #1. you can't be deceived once saved and #2 that you can technically do anything you want know with no fear of hell. I think both of those are false and I know I am going to keep watch and check everything against His word like He advised us too. I trust Christ and He says "Do not be deceived".
I disagree with anyone that says or believes we HAVE to do works, on any level. I still to this day, a professing reborn, regenerated, follower of Christ, do not have to do a dang thing. I can still choose to do or not do anything I want.
My next understanding is that a true Christian, someone who has been supernatural changed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, WILL do works, but they will never take credit for it because we know that these works, and the passion that drives them is from God, and God get all the glory because we know that without Him we would never even do these things in the first place. That last point I can only speak for myself and my understanding.
We do not HAVE to do anything, but we WILL do it because of Him. These works are not chain's, not a burden, they are in complete awe of the splendor of our God, and in total gratitude for the undeserved and unearned gift of salvation.
As far as the "can't lose your salvation" issue, I think there are a lot of warnings for us believing Christians to watch and stay aware of false profits leading folks astray. I think it careless to think #1. you can't be deceived once saved and #2 that you can technically do anything you want know with no fear of hell. I think both of those are false and I know I am going to keep watch and check everything against His word like He advised us too. I trust Christ and He says "Do not be deceived".
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Man my nice little rant about how much I just hated this "debate" at first. I actually meant to end that comment with a thank you, because is a reasonable question and it's always good to think these things through, but also because it helped me to share my thought here as well as everyone else too. So even though I wanted to roll my eyes and just get away from it, God used it to help me share and to read the comment of you as well. Anyway my conclusion was "thanks for making another one of these threads".
But the "but" doesn't discount the point of the entire passage, it supports it. The "but" simply contrasts the previous statement of "IF [my righteous one] turns away". There's significant evidence to suggest the letter to the Hebrews was Paul's because it appears to be the same writing style. Paul is known for encouraging the reader through declaration where he basically says "but you are better than that" or "but [that] shouldn't still apply to you", which - on its face - implies that the reader wasn't living up to the godly standards of their new life, prompting the correction. He's teaching the reader how they should act. This is the same style shown in Hebrews 10:39. These NT letters are letters of instruction and encouragement.
If there's simply a distinction being made, how would you interpret Hebrews 10:35-36? Why would the writer need to give the faithful these instructions if it's not even possible for the faithful to throw away their faith?
35 So do not throw away your confidence; it holds a great reward.
36 You need to persevere, so that after you have done God’s will, you will receive what He has promised.
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FreeNChrist
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No. The "but" makes the distinction between "them" and "we". "We" being those who are faithful and whose soul will be saved.
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willybob
Guest
Paul said to depart from foolish questions that might seek to divide....Therefore just be holy as HE is holy
That sounds great,that was exactly my point when I posted a month or two ago about how many people here not only complicate God's word just to pass the time but also get themselves in a world of trouble by doing that,I just couldn't articulate it like you did.
Also it's my belief that not only can we save ourselves but we are the only ones that can.
Because God gives us the choice as individuals to live by His advice or not,also He says that people that think that they are doing His work are wrong,that sure sounds like those people teaching unconditional forgiveness.
Because God gives us the choice as individuals to live by His advice or not,also He says that people that think that they are doing His work are wrong,that sure sounds like those people teaching unconditional forgiveness.
My doctrine is the New Testament only (with Old Testament as back reference). I do not follow man-made doctrines. I am in no way biase to my own personal thoughts or opinions, but have an open mind to what the scriptures are telling me. And there are many scriptures that disprove OSAS. This would have to be a book to mention them all.
For one, the parable of the prodigal son. He was genuinely born of the father, was with the father, then left the father. He did return to the Father before he died. And his father said "My son was dead, but now he is alive." The son did not die physically- that means that while he was away from the father he was spiritually dead.
Lets talk about this kind of dead/alive. God says He is the God of the living, not the dead (spiritually). So if this parable represents God the Father (and it does), that means that if we leave Him, we are spiritually dead- which means we are not in a safe spiritual state, and if we die physically in that state, we have lost our salvation.
Jesus said "Let the dead bury the dead" He meant let the spiritually dead bury the physically dead. Jesus says "I tell you the truth, unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink His blood (Lords Supper) you have no life in you." In the physical body, the life is in the blood. The heart continuously pumps the blood through the whole body to keep all tissues alive. In the same way spiritually, the life is in Christ's blood- which gets distributed throughout His whole body (the church). So if you leave the church, you leave Christ's body, and His life-saving blood, and it's only a matter of time before you die (spiritually).
I'll mention one more for now- the Elect (of God) (Christians), and the VERY Elect. What's the difference? Say you have a bullseye. The outer circle represents the worst of humanity- the most evil and depraved people you can imagine. But inside that circle are people who live for pleasure. Their bumper sticker says "Whoever dies with the most toys wins." But inside that circle are people who seem genuinely good. They don't go to church, but they are kind to their neighbor. But inside that circle are Christians. They go to church, but when they walk out the door, they deny God by their lifestyle- these are the Elect of God- those who profess His name.
And you would think that that's where it ends. But inside that circle is the Very Elect of God- Christians that not only go to church and profess His name, they OBEY Him in every day. They are not just Christians on Sundays, but are faithful the whole week, and the whole rest of their lives. Now listen closely, cause I'm going to biblically prove what I'm about to say...
The Elect of God will NOT make it to heaven. Only the VERY Elect of God will make it to heaven...
"For if it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what hope is there for the ungodly and the sinner?"
And how is it hard for the righteous to be saved if all they have to do is trust that Jesus did everything for them, and they can kick up their feet and relax? How is that "carrying your cross daily" or "working out your salvation with fear and trembling"?
Judas lost his salvation.
King Saul lost his salvation.
The couple who brought a strange fire before the Lord lost their salvation.
You must, must, must remain faithful till the end.