In context: Romans 4:4-5

[SeaBass]

if good works could save us...then Jesus is irrelevant.

Obedient works save, Heb 5:9, then for those already in a saved position must do good works to maintain that saved position, Eph 2:10.

 

[Jackson123]

Good deeds do not save one who has never been a Christian before. Good deeds are for those who are ALREADY Christians....

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Good deeds are for those that are ALREADY in a saved position > Christians. God before ordained that Christians walk in good works.

Can one who becomes a Christian today NEVER do any good works yet still be saved anyway?

Good deed happen only if the motive is love. One may give to the poor, but the motive can be popularity, not love.

Jesus said, only if the branch abide to the vine will produce fruit/ love/ agape love.

Non Christian have a love, they love they children, spouse, but agape love like Stephen, who pray for his killer, is not possible without Jesus involvement.

In this case, I with you that good deed never save us. Good deed is product of salvation not produce salvation.

Brother Seabas, how about question 2

 

[SeaBass]

Good deed happen only if the motive is love. One may give to the poor, but the motive can be popularity, not love.

Jesus said, only if the branch abide to the vine will produce fruit/ love/ agape love.

Non Christian have a love, they love they children, spouse, but agape love like Stephen, who pray for his killer, is not possible without Jesus involvement.

In this case, I with you that good deed never save us. Good deed is product of salvation not produce salvation.

Brother Seabas, how about question 2

You did not answer my question:
Per Eph 2:10 - Can one who becomes a Christian today NEVER do any good works yet still be saved anyway ?

What is question 2?

 

[Jackson123]

You did not answer my question:
Per Eph 2:10 - Can one who becomes a Christian today NEVER do any good works yet still be saved anyway ?

What is question 2?

To answered your question, I have to ask you what is your definition about good work.

The thief next to Jesus save without helping the poor, or the needy.


Jesus look his heart more then action. He doesn't have time to helping the needy.

And this is my second question:

Re: In context: Romans 4:4-5

Originally Posted by SeaBass


No.




The purpose of me starting this thread is to demonstrate how those that follow the man-made faith only doctrine twist the Rom 4:4,5 passage.

I just posted a question: in Rom 4:4 what kind of work is Paul talking about in this verse, what kind of work would make one's reward of debt and not of grace?



1. The question: is possible one believe in God and a rapist ? your answered is no.

It mean you believe there is correlation between believe in God and good deeds.

Salvation is product of Believe and believe produce good deeds.>>>>>> good deeds is product of salvation

2. what do you mean by follow man made faith only doctrine?

would you give me specific example?

​

 

[Cassian]

....a context that is frequently taken out of context...

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Paul is contrasting "him that worketh" to "him that believeth". Since we know from verses as Jh 6:27-29 belief is itself a work then the "worketh" Paul speaks of cannot include the obedient work of believing. Paul in verse 4 tells us the type of work he is speaking about, a work where ones reward is "not reckoned of grace but of debt". If one could work to keep the law perfectly, sinlessly then his reward is not of grace but something owed him, a debt. So in verse 4 Paul is speaking about works of merit where the reward is earned and contrasting "works of merit" to "works of obedience/believing". (Paul makes this same contrast between works of merit and submitting/obeying the righteousness/commandments of God in Rom 10:3)

In the context of Rom 4, Abraham was one who did not do works of merit trying to earn his salvation for Abraham sinned but Abraham had an obedient belief. James 2:21-24 says Abraham was justified by works...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified. So the "worketh not" that Paul speaks of in Rom 4:5 CANNOT include the works James speaks of that do justify.

Since Paul and James do not contradict each other, it becomes apparent that the works Paul speaks of that do not justify are "works of merit" and the works James speaks of that do justify are obedient works.

Paul says in Rom 4:5 that -----believing>>>>>>>>justifies
James says in Jam 2 that ------works>>>>>>>>>> justify

Since there is just one way to be justified/saved, then believing is an obedient work that justifies and not a work of merit where one's reward is of debt and not of grace.


So when one takes "worketh not" of Rom 4:4 out of context and tries to make it include ALL types of works, then they are creating a whole host contradictions. They create a contradiction with James who said by works a man is justified and with Paul also who in Rom 6:17,18 shows that when one obeys from the heart, then he is freed from sin/justified.

A very good expose of understanding the relationship of grace, faith and works. it didn't take long for the opposition to expound on all the theories of man is trying to refute scripture.

However, in reading most of the opposition statements the unifying element is that they conflate the work of Christ, the salvation of the world from death and sin and man's response via a personal relationship with God. One has nothing directly to do with the other.

Due to Adam's sin Satan took man captive through the power of death. Our sinning is the result of humans being mortal, under the control of death by Satan. Christ came ONLY to reverse the fall thus providing the means by which God and man could return to the purpose for which He created man, an eternal union of communion.

Now, when Paul is speaking of works not saving, He is referencing the work Christ did to atone for sin. Christ keep the law perfectly by living a perfect life. Man cannot do this. Any reference to such a some make that if we add works it means Christ's work was not sufficient totally misunderstand what Christ actually accomplished and the purpose of why God created man.

As you very well stated, James is not contradicting Paul since he is NOT referencing any work that might substitute for what Christ did, but man's individual response of being in a relationship with Christ which is premised on works. We are justified by faith but works are the evidence of our faith. It is not evidence of salvation.

God created man to be prophet, priest and king with God in this created order. Christ redeemed those functions for man and made it possible for man to freely join with God now and for an eternity. it is absurd to think that He is going to let man off the hook and not enforce the purpose for which He created man.

This faith only doctrine is as unscriptural as a view that God does not exist. It is all work, but work through faith. It is not for the purpose of our salvation from death and sin, but for the purpose of attaining perfection, being Christlike and attaining eternal life. It is a testing period just as much as Adam was being tested in the beginning.

 

[Jackson123]

A very good expose of understanding the relationship of grace, faith and works. it didn't take long for the opposition to expound on all the theories of man is trying to refute scripture.

However, in reading most of the opposition statements the unifying element is that they conflate the work of Christ, the salvation of the world from death and sin and man's response via a personal relationship with God. One has nothing directly to do with the other.

Due to Adam's sin Satan took man captive through the power of death. Our sinning is the result of humans being mortal, under the control of death by Satan. Christ came ONLY to reverse the fall thus providing the means by which God and man could return to the purpose for which He created man, an eternal union of communion.

Now, when Paul is speaking of works not saving, He is referencing the work Christ did to atone for sin. Christ keep the law perfectly by living a perfect life. Man cannot do this. Any reference to such a some make that if we add works it means Christ's work was not sufficient totally misunderstand what Christ actually accomplished and the purpose of why God created man.

As you very well stated, James is not contradicting Paul since he is NOT referencing any work that might substitute for what Christ did, but man's individual response of being in a relationship with Christ which is premised on works. We are justified by faith but works are the evidence of our faith. It is not evidence of salvation.

God created man to be prophet, priest and king with God in this created order. Christ redeemed those functions for man and made it possible for man to freely join with God now and for an eternity. it is absurd to think that He is going to let man off the hook and not enforce the purpose for which He created man.

This faith only doctrine is as unscriptural as a view that God does not exist. It is all work, but work through faith. It is not for the purpose of our salvation from death and sin, but for the purpose of attaining perfection, being Christlike and attaining eternal life. It is a testing period just as much as Adam was being tested in the beginning.

It depend of what people interpretation of what is faith alone.

Salvation is depend on faith alone, the thief next to Jesus never helping the poor. He didn't have the time for that and die.

His salvation is base on faith alone and so do my salvation.

But, I agree, that for people who after his encounter with Jesus Christ, life for another years, he will change, he will do love work.

His love work is not produce salvation, salvation produce by faith alone, His love work is product of salvation.

 

[Cassian]

It depend of what people interpretation of what is faith alone.

Salvation is depend on faith alone, the thief next to Jesus never helping the poor. He didn't have the time for that and die.

His salvation is base on faith alone and so do my salvation.

But, I agree, that for people who after his encounter with Jesus Christ, life for another years, he will change, he will do love work.

His love work is not produce salvation, salvation produce by faith alone, His love work is product of salvation.

You can believe that if you wish, but scripture does not teach faith alone. Faith alone is meaningless, empty. If one's initial faith never leads to repentance it becomes null and void. If faith is not evidenced by works, it is dead, meaningless. Salvation does NOT produce faith. Faith if continued to the end produces salvation.

 

[Jackson123]

You can believe that if you wish, but scripture does not teach faith alone. Faith alone is meaningless, empty. If one's initial faith never leads to repentance it becomes null and void. If faith is not evidenced by works, it is dead, meaningless. Salvation does NOT produce faith. Faith if continued to the end produces salvation.

I don't say salvation produce faith. I said Faith produce salvation and salvation produce good work.

What you tray to said is work and faith produce salvation.

What I believe is Faith produce salvation and good work in the same time.

What do you think about the thief next to Jesus, what kind of work he did for his salvation?

 

[Cassian]

I don't say salvation produce faith. I said Faith produce salvation and salvation produce good work.

I know that is what you stated which is why I stated it is incorrect. Faith evidences good works. It is faith that brings salvation, not the other way around as you state.

What you tray to said is work and faith produce salvation.

precisely, they must be in tandem. Either one separated from the other is meaningless. Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is nothing. Scripture never separates the two elements.

What I believe is Faith produce salvation and good work in the same time.

almost. faith and works produce salvation, more correctly, attain eternal life.

What do you think about the thief next to Jesus, what kind of work he did for his salvation?

he repented as well as witnessed to the other thief. But what the thief did is quite irrelevant. It is what scripture states and what each believer does. We all will give an account of our works. Never give an account of our faith. Rom 2:6-11, Rev 20:12b.

 

[Jackson123]

I don't say salvation produce faith. I said Faith produce salvation and salvation produce good work.

I know that is what you stated which is why I stated it is incorrect. Faith evidences good works. It is faith that brings salvation, not the other way around as you state.

precisely, they must be in tandem. Either one separated from the other is meaningless. Faith without works is dead, and works without faith is nothing. Scripture never separates the two elements.

almost. faith and works produce salvation, more correctly, attain eternal life.

he repented as well as witnessed to the other thief. But what the thief did is quite irrelevant. It is what scripture states and what each believer does. We all will give an account of our works. Never give an account of our faith. Rom 2:6-11, Rev 20:12b.

I don't see that why.

Jesus said if branch not abide the vine, it not produce fruit/ fruit of the Holy spirit is love/lovely work.

Jesus said branch can't bear fruit of itself.

How can branch produce fruit before save/ abide to the vine.

My conclusion is: good work/agape love only possible after salvation. And salvation is by faith.

So this is the order.

Faith, >>>>salvation and good work.

If one said they have faith and no love, he is a liar.

If the requirement to save is Faith and work. then no body save.

Jesus said fruit is come after you abide to Him/save.

So the requirement to be save is faith alone, than after save, you produce work.

This is your formula.

Faith + work = save.

This is what I believe bible formula.


Faith = save + work.

 

[Cassian]

I don't say salvation produce faith. I said Faith produce salvation and salvation produce good work.

I don't see that why.

Jesus said if branch not abide the vine, it not produce fruit/ fruit of the Holy spirit is love/lovely work.

Jesus said branch can't bear fruit of itself.

How can branch produce fruit before save/ abide to the vine.

My conclusion is: good work/agape love only possible after salvation. And salvation is by faith.

So this is the order.

Faith, >>>>salvation and good work.

If one said they have faith and no love, he is a liar.

If the requirement to save is Faith and work. then no body save.

Jesus said fruit is come after you abide to Him/save.

So the requirement to be save is faith alone, than after save, you produce work.

This is your formula.

Faith + work = save.

This is what I believe bible formula.


Faith = save + work.

scripture does not teach salvation before faith or works. When a person believes, repents and is baptized, he enters into the Body of Christ. The fact one enters does not constitute salvation. You can say you possess it, but it has not been finalized until the time of your death. Many believers have left the fold and forfeited their salvation. We are being tested through our faith. As long as we exist with our fallen natures sin is a possibility and falling back into sin is a continuing struggle.

Your formula is faith/works =salvation/attaining eternal life.

 

[Jackson123]

scripture does not teach salvation before faith or works. When a person believes, repents and is baptized, he enters into the Body of Christ. The fact one enters does not constitute salvation. You can say you possess it, but it has not been finalized until the time of your death. Many believers have left the fold and forfeited their salvation. We are being tested through our faith. As long as we exist with our fallen natures sin is a possibility and falling back into sin is a continuing struggle.

Your formula is faith/works =salvation/attaining eternal life.

Brother Cassian.

We talking about the requirement of salvation. We not talking about if one have a faith in Jesus, today, can he back to the world another day?

We talking about how to be save.

To my knowledge, only faith is the requirement.

So my formula is.

Faith = salvation + work.

Your formula is

Faith + work = salvation.

to me work is product of faith in Jesus.

Jesus said if branch not abide to the vine, it will not produce fruit/lovely work.

How you expect work as requirement of salvation?

requirement is something you provide before.

example, to be accepted as post master, one must have high school diploma and pass the post office special test.


It mean if you only have high school diploma, without pass the test, you not going to be accepted.

to be save, only faith is requirement.

Work will be the evident of salvation, not the requirement.

How about if one said he is save but is a rapist in daily life. Then he is a liar, he is not save.

faith mean entrust mean to surrender his life to be direct by Holy spirit. And if he really drive by Holy spirit, he will not being rapist in his daily. He may fall in to sin once a while, but Holy spirit will keep remain him and he will repent.

 

[Cassian]

Brother Cassian.

We talking about the requirement of salvation. We not talking about if one have a faith in Jesus, today, can he back to the world another day?

there are many requirements for salvation. Not any one of them saves a person, It is a live lived in faithfulness to Christ.

We talking about how to be save.

To my knowledge, only faith is the requirement.

which scripture tells us categorically is not true. Faith is just the beginning and it is the foundation for salvation. Repentance is of utmost importance. Baptism is the ONLY way to enter into Christ in order to be saved. Works of righteousness evidences one's faith. We are as righteous as we do righteousness, I John 3:7. We are to work with the Holy Spirit to perfect ourselves, to be transformed into little Christs, to be conformed to His Image. All are necessary in order to attain eternal life.

So my formula is.

Faith = salvation + work.

Your formula is

Faith + work = salvation.

to me work is product of faith in Jesus.

Jesus said if branch not abide to the vine, it will not produce fruit/lovely work.

How you expect work as requirement of salvation?

you just answered your own question with the statement just before your question. If one does not love one cannot be saved. If you love Me, you will keep my commandments. The converse is also true, if we don't love Him, we cannot keep His commandments.

requirement is something you provide before.

example, to be accepted as post master, one must have high school diploma and pass the post office special test.


It mean if you only have high school diploma, without pass the test, you not going to be accepted.

to be save, only faith is requirement.

on the contrary. faith only is dead. James 2:24 works are mandatory through faith. Somehow, you are assuming something not present in scripture and that is a person is finitely saved at some point before death. There is nothing in scripture to support such a notion. Possessing salvation at any time is not a guarantee that you will endure to the end in order to actually inherit eternal life.

Work will be the evident of salvation, not the requirement.

scripture never makes this claim. It does make the claim that works are evidence of faith, NOT salvation. Let me ask you how one can be already perfected upon initial faith, meaning one is saved. You are assuming that everyone that simply believes is completely mature and needs no growth.

How about if one said he is save but is a rapist in daily life. Then he is a liar, he is not save.

I'm not the judge. He might have been, but sinned, then repented. We should not be concerned with someone else's walk, but only our own. We will answer for our walk, not someone else.

faith mean entrust mean to surrender his life to be direct by Holy spirit. And if he really drive by Holy spirit, he will not being rapist in his daily. He may fall in to sin once a while, but Holy spirit will keep remain him and he will repent.

the Holy Spirit does not drive you or do anything for you. You are the active agent in your life. It is You, that sins not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit influences you but cannot do your bidding. Same holds true for Satan. He cannot make you sin. You are the determinate of whether you do or not and it is you that will give an accounting for what YOU do.

 

[Jackson123]

Brother Cassian.

We talking about the requirement of salvation. We not talking about if one have a faith in Jesus, today, can he back to the world another day?

there are many requirements for salvation. Not any one of them saves a person, It is a live lived in faithfulness to Christ.

which scripture tells us categorically is not true. Faith is just the beginning and it is the foundation for salvation. Repentance is of utmost importance. Baptism is the ONLY way to enter into Christ in order to be saved. Works of righteousness evidences one's faith. We are as righteous as we do righteousness, I John 3:7. We are to work with the Holy Spirit to perfect ourselves, to be transformed into little Christs, to be conformed to His Image. All are necessary in order to attain eternal life.

you just answered your own question with the statement just before your question. If one does not love one cannot be saved. If you love Me, you will keep my commandments. The converse is also true, if we don't love Him, we cannot keep His commandments.

on the contrary. faith only is dead. James 2:24 works are mandatory through faith. Somehow, you are assuming something not present in scripture and that is a person is finitely saved at some point before death. There is nothing in scripture to support such a notion. Possessing salvation at any time is not a guarantee that you will endure to the end in order to actually inherit eternal life.

scripture never makes this claim. It does make the claim that works are evidence of faith, NOT salvation. Let me ask you how one can be already perfected upon initial faith, meaning one is saved. You are assuming that everyone that simply believes is completely mature and needs no growth.

I'm not the judge. He might have been, but sinned, then repented. We should not be concerned with someone else's walk, but only our own. We will answer for our walk, not someone else.

the Holy Spirit does not drive you or do anything for you. You are the active agent in your life. It is You, that sins not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit influences you but cannot do your bidding. Same holds true for Satan. He cannot make you sin. You are the determinate of whether you do or not and it is you that will give an accounting for what YOU do.

Our disagreement here is on definition of faith.

Your believe one can have a faith but not repent.

I believe the faith mean entrust to the Lord or invite Jesus to be your leader in your life. Mean surrender you heart to Jesus.

Like a branch abide to the vine.

This is the foundation that I use for my formula.

John 15
4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you.[SUP][/SUP] No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit;[SUP][/SUP] apart from me you can do nothing.

verse 4.

No branch bear fruit of it self. And fruit in this verse is fruit of the Holy spirit/lovely work.

Mean if work is the requirement, than no body save, because no body can bear fruit of itself.

Verse 5

Jesus never lie, He said if a man remain in Him / I interpreted as if a man invite Jesus in his heart as a driver/leader/ not a servant. than he will bear fruit/lovely work.

So, as soon as a man invite and have a true faith in Jesus, than he change, not because he have ability to repent from within, but because he abide to the vine.

I repeat one more time, branch doesn't ability to bear the fruit of itself.

 

[mailmandan]

The reason we receive grace unto obedience is because without obedience grace doesn't save anyone.

We have access by faith into grace which then results in obedience/good works. The "whole picture" rests on cause and effect. Are we obedient/do we produce good works TO QUALIFY for God's grace or is salvation by grace through faith which then consequently leads TO obedience/good works? Which is cause and which is effect? Without faith there is no obedience.

The grace of God brings salvation when that grace is yielded to wholeheartedly. That is the dynamic of grace THROUGH faith which produces a changed heart. If there is no obedience then grace is received to no working effect.

Grace is yielded to through faith which produces a changed heart that subsequently leads to obedience. If there is no obedience, then there was no changed heart by grace through faith.

People like you who argue in favour of not having to turn from evil in order to be saved are just lying to yourselves.

When did I say that believers don't turn from evil but remain evil as believers? Straw man argument.

Jesus preached repentance and used Nineveh as an example of people who repented. In Nineveh they forsook their evil ways BEFORE God granted them mercy.

In Matthew 12:41, when God saw their works, that they turned from their wicked ways, then God "relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them." In Jonah 3:4, we see that Jonah told the people of Ninevah that the city of Ninevah would be overthrown in 40 days if they do not repent of their wickedness (Jonah 1:2). The people of Ninevah repented "changed their minds" at the preaching of Jonah, believed God, and "turned from their evil ways" - "fruit of repentance" (Jonah 3:5,10; Matthew 3:8). Keeping with Strong's designation, the Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. Repentance is a "change of mind" and the context must determine what is involved in this change of mind. For the people of Ninevah, the object of their repentance was changing their mind about continuing in their wicked ways, not trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation. The content of their faith was believing that God would overthrow Nenevah, not trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption for salvation. Unfortunately, the city of Ninevah reverted within one generation to its old pagan ways (Nahum 3:7,8).

You don't want to believe in that and thus when anyone writes that salvation is conditional upon turning from evil and yielding to God you oppose it. Your basically a proxy mouthpiece for Satan telling people they can sin and not surely die. Don't be a fool.

Absolute false accusation/straw man argument. When we repent and believe the gospel, we become new creations in Christ and our hearts have been changed. Believers do not continue in sin. 1 John 3:7 - Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. ​Get your facts straight before making false accusations and calling me a fool.

 

[mailmandan]

John's baptism was for (eis) meaning looking forward, in order to obtain remission of sins.
Lk 7:30 "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him."

Was John’s baptism for (eis) looking forward to repentance in Matthew 3:11? I baptize you with water for (eis) "in order to obtain" repentance or "with reference to" repentance? Repentance precedes baptism so baptism looks back at repentance and baptism is not the means by which sins are forgiven but is a sign that one has truly repented. The remission of sins is signified, yet not procured in the waters of baptism (Acts 10:43-47). As Greek scholar AT Robertson said - Certainly John did not mean that the baptism was the means of obtaining the forgiveness of their sins or necessary to the remission of sins. Probably "with reference to" is as good a translation here as is possible. The baptism was on the basis of the repentance. Amen! It’s the same in Matthew 3:11.

Those that rejected John's baptism was rejecting having their sins remitted, they were rejecting God' counsel. Now what can be said of those that reject Christ's baptism for remission of sins?

By refusing baptism, the Pharisees and lawyers demonstrated that they rejected John's call to repentance (which is the means of having their sins remitted, which is signified in baptism, which demonstrates that they rejected God Himself. Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (SIGNIFIED BY) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (SIGNIFIED BY) not having been baptized by John.

When the thief was promised paradise the gospel (ggod news) was not yet in effect, Christ had no yet even died or been resurrected when the thief was promised paradise. So the thief could not even have the type of belief the NT gospel requires..."

... and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised (past tense) him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom 10:9.
The thief could not believe God "hath raised' Christ from the dead when Christ had not even died.

You sound like a dispensationalist who is arguing progressive revelation. Prior to Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, we read John 3:16..whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life John 3:18..he who believes in Him is not condemned..The thief obviously believed in Him and was saved, yet you want to argue the content of what was believed. Was the thief on the cross saved by works? How many works did he accomplish on that cross just prior to his death? Prior to the cross, what was the message "repent and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15) in regards to?

Again, the fact the thief mocked and blasphemed Jesus does not prove he was never baptized. There were many that once followed Christ but later quit.....

The fact that the thief was being put to death for being a thief and he mocked, blasphemed and shook his head at Jesus prior to his repentance is all the proof I need. In regards to these quitters, in John 6:64-66, Jesus said - But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. In John 8:31, Jesus said - "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine. They did not continue; they were not truly His disciples.

Heb 6:4,5 describes those that were once disciples/Christians but fell away to a state where they put Christ to shame and crucify Him afresh. Their putting Him to shame and crucifying Him afresh now does not mean they were never disciples of Christ before.

I've heard multiple interpretations for Hebrews 6:4-6 (lost salvation, hypothetical statement, not genuine Christians) and your interpretation does not fit the thief previously being a disciple/Christian who fell away then got saved all over again. Verse 6 says "after they fall away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance." So the thief does not fit your argument here.
Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.

The fact the thief knew so much about Christ makes it possible he could have one been a disciple.

The Pharisees knew plenty about Christ. Does that mean they were His disciples? You are grasping for straws here.

My question was:

Is Christ on earth today personally forgiving the sins of those whom He thinks is deserving?

Our sins are forgiven because we are deserving? Where did you come up with that? The wages of sin (what we earned, deserve) is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The obvious answer is NO. So no one today can make the claim they are saved in the same manner as the thief.

The thief was saved through faith and we are saved through faith, even though we are not hanging on a cross next to Jesus when we receive salvation through faith. You can argue all you want that the content of the faith of the thief and the content of our faith is different (because of progressive revelation), yet it's still saved through faith and the object of faith for the thief and for us is still Christ.

The thief did not live under the gospel, Heb 9:16,17. Who today can be saved outside the gospel, Rom 1:16? No one!

What was repent and believe the gospel (Mark 1:15) prior to the cross? What did the thief live under? Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life..He who believes in Him is not condemned.. Did the thief believe in Him and receive eternal life? Romans 1:16 states - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. According to your 4 step gospel plan, those who BELIEVE are not saved yet and must accomplish a list of "additional requirements" AFTER they believe in order to become saved.

Nor would Christ contradict Himself by saving the thief supposedly by belief only but then turn around and require belief in His resurrection Rom 10:9,

Through your dispensational progressive revelation argument, Christ is not contradicting Himself. What was revealed to the thief about Christ up to that time? The thief obviously believed in Christ and was saved. Did the thief simply believe that Jesus was the Son of God and would save the world from their sins, but just didn't understand the whole story on how he would do that up to that time? What works did he accomplish after he believed that supposedly saved him as well?

repentance, Lk 13:3,5, confession Mt 10:32,33 and baptism Mk 16:16 to be saved. Obviously the thief is an OT example of salvation and not an NT gospel of salvation that requires belief in the resurrection, repentance, confession and baptism.

Repentance actually precedes saving belief in Christ. Through poor semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you reverse the order of repentance and faith in receiving salvation. To the contrary we find: Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him Mark 1:15 - Repent and believe the gospel (not believe the gospel then afterwards repent). Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

In Matthew 10:32-33, the broader context of this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples spoke about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like these Pharisees do on every occasion they get), I will deny him before my Father in heaven. Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust exclusively in Him for salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust exclusively in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:16; 10:9; 14:6). The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Him three times - Luke 22:34), but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

In Mark 16:16, He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. Continue to meditate on Acts 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 15:8-9.

 

[mailmandan]

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, not works, then created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Saved unto/for good works, NOT by good works. You have it backwards.

It's impossible for one to become a Christian today and NEVER do any good works yet still be saved. If he never does any good works he was never converted.

I agree that if someone claims to be a Christian but never does any good works then he was never converted. Faith is the root and good works are the fruit of salvation. No fruit would demonstrate there is no root.

So these good works are a necessity for one to be a Christian and remain a faithful Christian

These good works are a necessity to demonstrate that one is a Christian, not to become a Christian. Salvation is neither attained or maintained by good works. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works. So how many good works does it take to remain a faithful Christian? Are you taking inventory? Is your faith in your works and not exclusively in Christ for salvation?

so Paul's "worketh" in Rom 4:4 cannot include these God works God BEFORE ORDAINED Christians walk in.

These good works that God ordained that Christians walk in are what we are saved FOR and not by. Paul never said that we are saved by good works. He said not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us. Works of righteousness are good works, so "does not work" are (any works that we add to salvation through faith) and the alternative is "believes on Him who justifies the ungodly."

So if Paul's "worketh" in Rom 4:4 includes any work then that is a total contradiction of Paul's. How can Paul ever be excluding "BEFORE ORDAINED works in Rom 4:4? He couldn't without contradiction.

No contradiction at all. If Paul meant to include certain types of works "in addition to" believes on Him in Romans 4:5, then he certainly would have listed them. Paul said "works" and James said "works." In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" that God has ordained believers to walk in yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). You can't detach good works from the moral aspect of the law, so the "saved by good works, just not specific works of the law" argument is bogus.

Jn14:15 "

If ye love me, keep my commandments".

Jesus here emphasizes the need to keep His commandments as evidence of the believer's love for Him. True saving faith is manifest by works produced by God in the transforming, regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Those works are expressions of the love in which the Holy Spirit pours into the believer's heart (Romans 5:5). Do you believe that "keep" His commandments means sinless perfect obedience to ALL of His commandments? The word "keep" comes from the Greek word "tereo" Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. Are you taking inventory of how many commandments you believe that you have kept and are trusting in that to merit eternal life?

If Paul was excluding "any works" in Rom 4:4 then he was excluding obedient works making it impossible for anyone to ever love Christ. So evidently Paul was NOT excluding obedient works in Rom 4:4

Paul is excluding any works that "add" to salvation through faith. Obedient works which follow saving faith in Christ are still works and we are not saved by works. It's not impossible to love Christ as a believer. 1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us. Romans 5:5 - Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. Your arguments are based in faulty human logic, not in scripture.

Heb 5:9 "

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"
If Paul excludes obedient works in Rom 4:4 then he made it impossible for anyone to be saved.

Obey Him does not equate to salvation by works here. Do you believe that the word "obey" here means that we are saved "by" obedience/works which follow saving faith in Christ? If that is the case, then how can you say that you have truly "obeyed" Him (in that sense) unless you have done it completely, 100%? Are you sinless and perfect? Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by keeping His commandments and practicing righteousness. (1 John 2:3; 3:10). In either sense, believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16). Unbelievers remain in darkness and do not keep His commandments or practice righteousness because without faith, it is impossible to please God, so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh. In either sense, unbelievers (no matter how religious they think they are, the Pharisees and modern day Pharisees of various false religions and cults for example) do not obey Him.

Noah building the ark was to the "

saving of his house" Had he disobeyed God, that is sinned and done unrighteousness he would have been lost with that wicked generation too. Are you suggesting Noah could have disobeyed God in not building the ark and been saved anyway?

Building the ark was a demonstration of Noah's faith. If Noah would have refused to build the ark then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith and would have drown with the rest of civilization.

 

[newbirth]

]Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). Believing is the origin of our faith and obeying the word afterwards is works. Faith is believing and obedience which follows is works. You don't seem to make a distinction between the root of salvation (faith) and the fruit of salvation (works). You seem to think that faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works. This leads to your errant theology that salvation is through faith/works. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1).

you quote a verse an immediately makes a uturn .....if believing is the origin of your faith....and you have not heard then what do you believe?
God's word is alive ....it sparks faith into us ...that is why faith comes by hearing....

Although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of coming to faith in Christ and receiving salvation as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" by believing the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God. Paul also mentions "obedience of faith" in Romans 1:5. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). In Romans 1:5, Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by FAITH into GRACE..Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works.

You just babble about things.....obedience of faith....obedience to what you believe....when you hear the word and you believe you obey what the word says...

Which eventually led him to the place in which God brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 And he believed the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. (Genesis 15:5-6). This happened many years before Abraham was said to be justified by works in James 2:21. Notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The works of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous," not accounted as righteous.

he believed the first words ...Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

if he did not believe he was not going anywhere....
[SUP]4 [/SUP]So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. The harmony of Romans 4:2 and James 2:21 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show or prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

Abraham did it in vs 4 not of constraint but because he believed

[/QUOTE]
contrary to what you say ...faith comes by hearing...and obedience of faith is doing what you heard and believe...

James 1:22-25King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

[Cassian]

Brother Cassian.

We talking about the requirement of salvation. We not talking about if one have a faith in Jesus, today, can he back to the world another day?

Our disagreement here is on definition of faith.

Your believe one can have a faith but not repent.

I believe the faith mean entrust to the Lord or invite Jesus to be your leader in your life. Mean surrender you heart to Jesus.

Like a branch abide to the vine.

This is the foundation that I use for my formula.

John 15
4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

verse 4.

No branch bear fruit of it self. And fruit in this verse is fruit of the Holy spirit/lovely work.

Mean if work is the requirement, than no body save, because no body can bear fruit of itself.

Verse 5

Jesus never lie, He said if a man remain in Him / I interpreted as if a man invite Jesus in his heart as a driver/leader/ not a servant. than he will bear fruit/lovely work.

So, as soon as a man invite and have a true faith in Jesus, than he change, not because he have ability to repent from within, but because he abide to the vine.

I repeat one more time, branch doesn't ability to bear the fruit of itself.

everyone has a measure of faith. It is what we do with that faith that matters.

Your sequence seems to be out of line with scripture. One is not attached to the vine until and unless one repents and is baptized and joins with Christ.

Also the Holy Spirit does not have fruit. The fruit is produced by YOUR spirit. It is produced with the influence of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not do the work for you, but guides you into doing the good work. One can reject that influence/guidance at any time and return to his sinful ways of living. Which is why your citation of John 15:4 has a condition attached.

 

[ELECT]

if good works could save us...then Jesus is irrelevant.

If bad evil works can make us lose salvation then what ?