In context: Romans 4:4-5

[mailmandan]

Yes you are right here, believers do get judged and given rewards by the works they did. But you can not say you are a believer, and produce no good works or only bad works.

Amen to that!

 

[Delivery]

In the context of Rom 4:4 the one who "worketh" is the one is trying to keep God's law flawlessly, perfectly, he is an obedient man in trying to gain acceptance with God.

This means the "non-worker", the one who has no works is being totally, entirely, completely disobedient to God, a law-breaker, one who can never gain acceptance with God, never be justified in his "non-works".

Nobody can keep God's law flawlessly, nor can anyone gain acceptance with God by trying to be obedient and keeping the law and the rules flawlessly.

The term "non-worker" is not mentioned anywhere in the verses you quoted in your OP. It's just you term you cooked up tto try and justify your Salvation by works false doctrine. The verses in the OP do mention the believers who trust in God alone for their Salvation by believing in Jesus and therefore receiving His free gift of Salvation by Faith through grace, not works.

 

[mailmandan]

The WHOLE BIBLE tells us THAT good words will be rewarded with eternal life. Love to all, Hoffco

Is eternal life/salvation a reward (something we work for and earn) or a free gift (Romans 6:23) that we receive by grace through faith? (Ephesians 2:8).

 

[Hoffco]

to Ken , I thought you did not believe in eternal punishment, I Hope you are right; But i think not. so be that , time will tell.Love Hoffco

 

[kennethcadwell]

Nobody can keep God's law flawlessly, nor can anyone gain acceptance with God by trying to be obedient and keeping the law and the rules flawlessly.

The term "non-worker" is not mentioned anywhere in the verses you quoted in your OP. It's just you term you cooked up tto try and justify your Salvation by works false doctrine. The verses in the OP do mention the believers who trust in God alone for their Salvation by believing in Jesus and therefore receiving His free gift of Salvation by Faith through grace, not works.

That is the problem with people who look at works as being wrong.

They refer to the works of the law. ( As in one who is trying to keep commandments to earn salvation. )

The works that matter, are works of love. ( Loving all including enemies, helping others that are in need, preaching the gospel, and doing thins that edify others; make them feel better. )

 

[kennethcadwell]

to Ken , I thought you did not believe in eternal punishment, I Hope you are right; But i think not. so be that , time will tell.Love Hoffco

No I do believe some will be punished for eternity, the bible makes that clear, but it also makes clear that not all will burn for eternity.

There is a level of punishment for those who do not believe, or walk in darkness. Just like there is a level of rewards for believers.

 

[Hoffco]

to dan the mail man ,LOL It is a gift with strings attached. PLEASE read Rom.6:22 " sanctification " leads to eternal life, "enslavement to God" leads to eternal liofe. Love Hoffco

 

[Delivery]

....and this refutes what I post about Rom 4:4,5 in what way?

Eternal security can never be found for it does not exist.
1 Jn 1:7 those that walk in the light then Christ's blood washes away ALL sins keeping one out of the "pit"
Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing the word of God. Faith is not a gift God randomly gives to some and withholds from others.

So, now I see why you are preaching that we need to have works to be saved. You're trying to prove that we can lose our salvation if we don't work hard enough or are obedient enough. But in order to do this you have to prove that our salvation is by works and not grace. Because common sense would dictate that if it's a free gift of God that can't be earned, no matter how hard we try then that would mean Eternal security, or Once saved, always saved is the correct doctrine. If you could earn your salvation by doing good works to get saved, or by doing good works to retain your salvation once you are saved, then you could boast and pat yourself on the back for how good and righteous you are and how much better you are than other people. Cause you were "obedient".

But since it's a free gift then you can't boast. You just have to accept Salvation as a free gift and give God all the glory for it. This is what Paul was saying in Ephesians 2:8-9:

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[mailmandan]

to dan the mail man ,LOL It is a gift with strings attached. PLEASE read Rom.6:22 " sanctification " leads to eternal life, "enslavement to God" leads to eternal liofe. Love Hoffco

No strings attached. So eternal life is not a present possession now and will not be a reality until we reach final sanctification or glorification? John 5:24 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. Is that still future? Salvation has three tenses. Justification - have been saved from the penalty of sin; Sanctification - being saved from the power of sin; Glorification - will be saved from the presence of sin. Which tense is being addressed in Romans 6:22? Are lost unbelievers or saved believers going through sanctification and are enslaved to God?

 

[Delivery]

That is the problem with people who look at works as being wrong.

They refer to the works of the law. ( As in one who is trying to keep commandments to earn salvation. )

The works that matter, are works of love. ( Loving all including enemies, helping others that are in need, preaching the gospel, and doing thins that edify others; make them feel better. )

True. The new testament commandment that Jesus gave us which replaces the old testament of the laws of Moses was to love one another.

13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

But what we are talking about here is works that are necessary for Salvation. No works, of whatever kind of works your talking about, are necessary for Salvation. The only thing that saves us is the blood of Jesus. So that we can only give Him all the glory for it, instead of boasting in ourselves. Then, of course, after we're saved the Lord expects us to love one another and follow Him but that doesn't mean that every time we make a mistake and succumb to some temptation or do an unloving thing to somebody or don't love others as much as we could that we're going to lose our Salvation over it. That's what I understand we're talking about here.

 

[kennethcadwell]

These scriptures make it clear when the true salvation of eternal life is received.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.

Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Hebrews 12:1-3
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

2 Timothy 4:2-8
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.

1 Timothy 4:16
Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.

1 Corinthians 9:24-25
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

Romans 11:19-22
Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

Mark 13:9-13
“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

 

[kennethcadwell]

True. The new testament commandment that Jesus gave us which replaces the old testament of the laws of Moses was to love one another.

13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

But what we are talking about here is works that are necessary for Salvation. No works, of whatever kind of works your talking about, are necessary for Salvation. The only thing that saves us is the blood of Jesus. So that we can only give Him all the glory for it, instead of boasting in ourselves. Then, of course, after we're saved the Lord expects us to love one another and follow Him but that doesn't mean that every time we make a mistake and succumb to some temptation or do an unloving thing to somebody or don't love others as much as we could that we're going to lose our Salvation over it. That's what I understand we're talking about here.

Read Matthew 25 it shows two groups in front of the judgment seat that believe in Jesus.

One group gets eternal life for doing good works of helping others, the other group gets sent to eternal punishment for not doing those works of helping others.

 

[Billyd]

I am saved by the Grace of my Lord Jesus through my Faith in him. I have The Eternal Security of that Salvation.

Don't tell me or attempt to show me that I Don't have Eternal Security! I know that I do!

Tell me exactly what works that you are telling me that I have to do to maintain my Salvation (Eternal Security). Provide me a scripture to support the fact each work that I must do to maintain my Salvation. Caution. I probably was doing most of them before I was saved, and I was just as lost as a grain of salt in the ocean.

 

[Kerry]

I would beg to differ. We are accepted by our faith in the cross. The ones that are punished had faith in their works and not the cross. Church is not a Kiwanis club, it is a place to worship God and thank Him for the cross. It is possible and happens more than you think for a person to place their faith in the cross and then by deception and or leadership place their faith in their works and possibly lose their salvation. God will only accept the cross and nothing else. Where is your faith?

 

[Alligator]

I Believe salvation has two parts. The first part is Christ. He has certainly done his part and it made the ultimate sacrifice by shedding his blood on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins. The second part is acceptance of that grace by us. Or to except it means to follow Christ and obey him throughout the remainder of our life. Salvation is not a spur of the moment thing. It is a process and that is why the Scripture says be thou fateful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life. A Christian can know if he is remaining faithful to Christ by his own life. See I John I. As long as we walk in the light, our salvation is secure.


I think Revelation 20:12 is pretty clear referring to our eternal destiny depending upon what we had done. (How we had lived our life. Any works we do along the way are to honor Christ, not to take away from what has done. That is a foolish notion.

This is what Christians do AFTER they HAVE BEEN saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8). Following Christ and obeying Him throughout the remainder of our life is what we are saved FOR. Believers don't follow Christ and obey Him throughout the remainder of their life in order to become saved but BECAUSE they are saved

Well of course. My point was one has to lead a Christian life (unto death) and then he will receive eternal life.


[/QUOTE=mailmandan] alvation is a past event with present results. Why do you think that Paul said we HAVE BEEN saved through faith? (Ephesians 2:8). That is not a process. It's a present reality

It is a process because we have made a commitment to Christ for life, not one day.

[/quote=mailmandan] alSanctification is a process, not Justification. Therefore, HAVING BEEN justified by faith, we HAVE peacegh our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1)

i never said anything about sanctification or justification

As I already explained, if Revelation 2:10 teaches that we must be "faithful enough" in addition to having faith in Christ for salvation, then just how faithful would you have to be? That is vague and could include any number of good works. This verse is meant to be an encouraging statement from the Lord to Christians at the church of Smyrna who were being persecuted, even to the point of death. The Lord was telling them that they will receive the crown of life after death, be faithful, hang in there. The very next verse says, "He who OVERCOMES shall not be hurt by the second death." *1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God OVERCOMES the world. And this is the victory that OVERCOMES the world---OUR FAITH. We are clearly saved through FAITH, not faith plus being faithful enough. Having faith to the end is being faithful. Faith that endures to the end is rooted in Christ and is not some shallow temporary belief that has no root

Dont patronize me. You know faith cannot be measured. As I told you before, I St. John I tells us how to,remain faithfiul.

=mailmandan]here does John say that Christians don't walk in the light? Are Christians in the light or in darkness? You need to read verses 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6 - IF we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth (See 1 John 3:10; 2:11). But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who aresanctified by faith in Me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Lost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Genuine saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other[/quote]

Of course Christians walk in the light if they are true Christians. I never said otherwise. But a Christian can lose his first love and fall away from Christ (Gal. 5:4) and as a result begins to walk in darkness. This is what Paul is warning against.





Upon what we have done? That is WORKS. See how you continually base salvation on works? Read Revelation 2:11 along with 1 John 5:4. How do we overcome? By works or through our faith? 1 John 4:4 - You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. Genuine good works glorify God, but they do not earn our salvation and are not the means of our salvation. If salvation is based on our works, then it does take away from what Christ has done because we then have to help Him save us and that makes Him an insufficient Savior. God forbid! What is foolish is REFUSING to BELIEVE the gospel.[/quote]

That is works? Well, so what. You may not like it but I choose to believe John, he's the one who wrote it. As I have already said, your last statement is ridiculous and I'm going to comment on it again

 

[mailmandan]

Well of course. My point was one has to lead a Christian life (unto death) and then he will receive eternal life.

Has to or wants to? Living a Christian life is not forced or legalistic for those who are truly born of God. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works (Romans 4:6; Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

Of course Christians walk in the light if they are true Christians.

Amen!

I never said otherwise.

So you understand that those who say they have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, lie and do not practice the truth (1 John 1:6) are not Christians? Read in contrast with 1 John 1:7 and along side 1 John 3:10 and 1 John 2:11 that is clear to me.

But a Christian can lose his first love and fall away from Christ (Gal. 5:4) and as a result begins to walk in darkness. This is what Paul is warning against.

Where did John or Paul say that a Christian permanently fell away from Christ and as a result went back to walking in darkness? "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." The present tense of the word "justified" in Galatians 5:4 implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. But had they fully come to that place yet? They were obviously getting side-tracked by legalistic teachers, but I don't see the words "went back to walking in darkness" there. Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error. If it was a done deal, and they were no longer Christians and are back to walking in darkness, then why did Paul say in verse 10 - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

That is works? Well, so what.

So we are saved by works and so what you say? From beginning (Ephesians 2:8) to end (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works (Romans 4:6; Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:9).

You may not like it but I choose to believe John, he's the one who wrote it.

I believe John and he does not teach salvation by works. The end of your faith--the salvation of your souls is being faithful unto death. You may not like it that your works are not the means of your salvation. No credit for you.

As I have already said, your last statement is ridiculous and I'm going to comment on it again

How is it ridiculous? Either Christ is an ALL-sufficient Savior or else He is an IN-sufficient Savior. Either Christ's finished work of redemption is ALL-sufficient to save us or else it is IN-sufficient to save. Either we are saved by believing or else we are saved by works. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Alligator]

Has to or wants to? Living a Christian life is not forced or legalistic for those who are truly born of God. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works (Romans 4:6; Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

its both. Is it legalistic to obey a command of Christ

so you understand that those who say they have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, lie and do not practice the truth (1 John 1:6) are not Christians? Read in contrast with 1 John 1:7 and along side 1 John 3:10 and 1 John 2:11 that is clear to me.

John is clearly writing to Christians. However, these apparently were fallen Christians are those in danger of falling. That is why John was issuing the warning.



Where did John or Paul say that a Christian permanently fell away from Christ and as a result went back to walking in darkness? "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." The present tense of the word "justified" in Galatians 5:4 implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. But had they fully come to that place yet? They were obviously getting side-tracked by legalistic teachers, but I don't see the words "went back to walking in darkness" there. Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error. If it was a done deal, and they were no longer Christians and are back to walking in darkness, then why did Paul say in verse 10 - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Well, either way the meaning is still the same. Either some had fallen from Grace or they were in danger of it. Why else would he issue the warning.



So we are saved by works and so what you say? From beginning (Ephesians 2:8) to end (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is through faith and is not by works (Romans 4:6; Ephesians 2:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:9).

The bible talks about several kinds of works and that comes into play here.

 

[mailmandan]

its both. Is it legalistic to obey a command of Christ

So you are saying that we are saved through faith AND works? Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation; yet you say that BOTH faith AND works are the root of salvation? It's not legalistic to genuinely obey a command of Christ. It's legalistic when you twist a command of Christ as a means to merit salvation by works. The Pharisees thought they were obeying God, yet they were caught up in legalism, works righteousness/salvation by works.

John is clearly writing to Christians. However, these apparently were fallen Christians are those in danger of falling. That is why John was issuing the warning.

Where does John say they were fallen Christians? John makes a contrast between two walks. One in darkness and one in the light. Just because John is writing to Christians does not mean that everyone John discusses in the book of John are Christians. Read 1 John 2:19 for example. Notice in 1 John 3:7-10 the contrast between children of God and children of the devil.

Well, either way the meaning is still the same. Either some had fallen from Grace or they were in danger of it. Why else would he issue the warning.

Paul was making a strong statement to the Galatians who were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers that justification by faith and justification by the law are mutually exclusive. I didn't hear Paul say some had absolutely fallen from grace, no time to fix the error, you lost your salvation. If that were the case, I find it very strange in verse 10 that Paul would say - "I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is?" You don't have confidence in hopeless cases.

The bible talks about several kinds of works and that comes into play here.

So which kind of works did Paul say we are saved by in (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:9)? Or did he say we are saved through believing in Him/faith? (Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..).

 

[Alligator]

So you are saying that we are saved through faith AND works? Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation; yet you say that BOTH faith AND works are the root of salvation? It's not legalistic to genuinely obey a command of Christ. It's legalistic when you twist a command of Christ as a means to merit salvation by works. The Pharisees thought they were obeying God, yet they were caught up in legalism, works righteousness/salvation by works.

I am using faith in a broad sense, which is made up of works. Not merely mental assent.

Shere does John say they were fallen Christians? John makes a contrast between two walks. One in darkness and one in the light. Just because John is writing to Christians does not mean that everyone John discusses in book of John are Christians. Read 1 John 2:19 for example. Notice in 1 John 3:7-10 the contrast between children of God and children of the devil.

Im saying that in the first chapter of John, he is referring to Christians, or former Christians If for no other reason notice how many times he uses the word we.

Saul was making a strong statement to the Galatians who were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers that justification by faith and justification by the law are mutually exclusive. I didn't hear Paul say some had absolutely fallen from grace, no time to fix the error, you lost your salvation. If that were the case, I find it very strange in verse 10 that Paul would say - "I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is?" You don't have confidence in hopeless cases.

Hey was making a strong statement to the Galatians because they did not want to turn loose of the law of Moses. He's telling them that if they try to justify themselves by the Law, they have fallen from grace.

SSo which kind of works did Paul say we are saved by in (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Peter 1:9)? Or did he say we are saved through believing in Him/faith? (Acts 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..).

I don't have time to answer this one now I will later.

 

[mailmandan]

I am using faith in a broad sense, which is made up of works. Not merely mental assent.

Is faith made up of works? Are works the essence of faith? Should we simply define faith as works? Many people can't seem to separate the root of salvation (faith) from the fruit of salvation (works) which is how people come up with saved by works. The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in (James 2:19), or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 16:31).

In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons also believe "mental assent" that there is "one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. I believe "mental assent" that George Washington existed and I also believe in the historical facts about George Washington, but I am not trusting in Him to save my soul. See the difference? Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith trusts exclusively in Christ's finished work of redemption as the allsufficient means of our salvation.

Im saying that in the first chapter of John, he is referring to Christians, or former Christians If for no other reason notice how many times he uses the word we.

Where does John spell out that these were former Christians who went out from us, but were not of us, in 1 John 2:19 and who practice sin and not righteousness and does not love his brother in 1 John 3:8,10? Just because John says "we" does not mean that everyone in a professing group of Christians really is a Christian. John sorts them out.

Hey was making a strong statement to the Galatians because they did not want to turn loose of the law of Moses. He's telling them that if they try to justify themselves by the Law, they have fallen from grace.

There cannot be two grounds of salvation, two means of justification, two ways of life. To accept the one means to reject the other. It is either law or grace, either works or faith, either self-righteousness, or the righteousness of God. These Galatians were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers and were in danger of substituting law for Christ as a means of salvation, but was justified by law their final answer?

I don't have time to answer this one now I will later.

I'll be waiting for that answer.