In context: Romans 4:4-5
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What has God worked within?It's called "working out" what God has already "worked within."
They may be for you, but not in scripture, In scripture regarding how a person is saved faith and works is an unbroken tandem. If either one is taken away, both are useless. They only have meaning if they are together.You are confusing salvation by "faith not works,"
with "faith without works."
They are two entirely different things.
I'm not God. God does not need to operate by the means that He specifically gave to us. Many are saved without faith as you are understanding it. But as far as God's revelation to man as witnessed in scripture, faith is not valid without works.1. You seem to agree that fruit is product of faith
2. you seem to agree that faith is requirement to be save.
3 You said faith must have work to be valid. On this, I have question for you. how about if one have a faith and die in the same second.
4. Don't you believe when you go to ritual water baptism you sin all you past was forgiven ? mean if in that very second you die, you go to heaven pass the purgatory?
Also, scripture never states that baptism is a mere ritual. It does forgive past sins, one has also fulfilled a work to confirm one's faith. Again, I am not the judge, I do not know other men's hearts so whether this person goes to heaven or not, is not for me to say. I don't believe in Purgatory so that is irrelevant as it is also not in scripture as the Roman Catholic understand the doctrine.
I am not very sure what do you mean by red sentence.
the faith by which one is justified is based on one's belief that Christ died, was raised to life and thereby saved the world from death and sin. The world was saved from death and sin so that God and man could be rejoined in an eternal union of communion. We enter that union by being justified by faith.
1Co 3:12-15 was previously addressed. . .below:Eph 2:10 no way one can be a Christian and saved yet NOT do good works. So good works are a necessity for those that are Christians. God before ordained Christians walk in good works. Who here can undo, change what God before ordained?Elin said:The good works of a Christian can be built with wood, hay and stubble, which will be burned up
and he will lose his conditional reward in heaven, although he will not lose his unconditional salvation (1Co 3:12-15).
In 2Co 6:1, Paul is addressing the saved who are his fellow workers, and therefore
is not referring to unconditional saving grace given to them, which has already saved them.
He is referring to enabling grace given to the already saved for the Christian life.
If one's Christian works are wood, hay and stubble,
then they have received God's enabling grace in vain.
They themselves are saved by their unconditional saving grace,
but they will suffer loss of their reward in heaven (1Co 3:12-15)
if they receive in vain his enabling grace and build with wood, hay and stubble in their Christian life.
Contradiction of terms. . .How does 1 Cor 3:12-15 undo the fact that God before ordained Christians to walk in good works (Eph 2:10) thereby making it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to become and Christian and be saved WITHOUT doing good works?
Can "Joe" become a Christian and not do any good works as a Christian and yet still be saved anyway?
God's perfect justice cannot remit the sin of the guilty, and remain perfect justice.It does mean to make righteous or to put a person in a right standing with God. ButElin said:Justification is God's declaration of "not guilty," rightwise/in right standing with him,
through grace by faith in Jesus Christ, which saves from God's wrath (Ro 5:9; 1Th 5:9) on their guilt.
In the NT, justification is salvation from God's wrath and eternal death, and into eternal life.
there is no "not guilty" included.
God's perfect justice does not declare anyone "rightwise/in right standing" with him if they are guilty of sin.
Their guilt must first be dealt with before his justice can remit their guilt.
That guilt is dealt with through grace by faith in Jesus Christ,
which applies his ransom for their sin (Mt 20:28) to them,
satisfying God's perfect justice so that he can declare them "not guilty."
Both Ro 5:9; 1Th 5:9 show that salvation is from God's wrath at the final judgment.
I'm not God. God does not need to operate by the means that He specifically gave to us. Many are saved without faith as you are understanding it. But as far as God's revelation to man as witnessed in scripture, faith is not valid without works.
Also, scripture never states that baptism is a mere ritual. It does forgive past sins, one has also fulfilled a work to confirm one's faith. Again, I am not the judge, I do not know other men's hearts so whether this person goes to heaven or not, is not for me to say. I don't believe in Purgatory so that is irrelevant as it is also not in scripture as the Roman Catholic understand the doctrine.
I believe when Jame said faith without work is death. He quip to the people who profess to have faith but not follow His teaching.
Jesus said the tree seen by it fruit.
The tree represent a man/woman.
If he or she have a genuine faith, than he must demonstrate with lovely work. or the tree is bad tree/doesn't have faith.
I interpret this teaching as: the evident of faith is good work. If one who have faith not die in the same second as he entrust himself to Jesus.
So what Jesus tray to say is: a good tree must bear good fruit. or it is impossible for a man profess have a faith in Jesus and is a robber as his daily work.
Profess to have a faith in Jesus doesn't always mean have a faith in Jesus.
But salvation require genuine faith in Him.
It is in the meaning of the words "justification," "salvation," "rebirth," "eternal life," "righteousness," etc.So you say, but where in scripture does it ever state this?Elin said:In the NT, justification is salvation from God's wrath and eternal death, and into eternal life.
"Working out" is showing forth the new birth into eternal life in Jesus ChristWhat has God worked within?Elin said:It's called "working out" what God has already "worked within."
which God has "worked within" the redeemed.
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Both James and Paul use justification (dikaioō) in the same way. There is no difference in the meaning of the word justified (dikaioō) in Rom 4:2 and James 2:24.
I don't even believe you believe this anymore. dikaioo also appears in Romans 3:4 you yourself admitted this was not speaking of justification before God, but rather vindication of God before men. Even Paul used the word in different ways in the very same letter.
Paul spoke of justification before God by faith and not by works. James spoke of the justification of claim before men by works. There's no contradiction whatsoever. You just don't understand the word dikaioo.
You are confusing the "faith not works" of Ro 4:6; Eph 2:8-9They may be for you, but not in scripture, In scripture regarding how a person is saved faith and works is an unbroken tandem. If either one is taken away, both are useless. They only have meaning if they are together.Elin said:You are confusing salvation by "faith not works,"
with "faith without works."
They are two entirely different things.
with "faith without works" of Jas 2:26.
They are entirely different things.
If Christ can overlook the sin of man and still reconcile/justify all men, Rom 5:6-10, II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-35 then why would it be impossible that God can recognize one's initial faith and justify Him. If a person does not actually repent, or is not baptized, then that faith is meaningless and void anyway.God's perfect justice cannot remit the sin of the guilty, and remain perfect justice.
God's perfect justice does not declare anyone "rightwise/in right standing" with him if they are guilty of sin.
Their guilt must first be dealt with before his justice can remit their guilt.
That guilt is dealt with through grace by faith in Jesus Christ,
which applies his ransom for their sin (Mt 20:28) to them,
satisfying God's perfect justice so that he can declare them "not guilty."
Both Ro 5:9; 1Th 5:9 show that salvation is from God's wrath at the final judgment.
Respective of Rom 5:9, I Thes 5:9 you are correct in that it does refer to the actual judgement. But between initial faith and a person's death there is more than enough time for a person to reject Christ and forfeit his eternal life with Christ.
There is no instance in scripture that a person is declared "not guilty" as being finite and permanent in one's life. It applies to every instance of confession, when one confesses his sins, He is able to forgive those sins. Man's problem is that he continues to sin and must repeatedly seek forgiveness.
You are contradicting yourself here.I believe when Jame said faith without work is death. He quip to the people who profess to have faith but not follow His teaching.
Jesus said the tree seen by it fruit.
The tree represent a man/woman.
If he or she have a genuine faith, than he must demonstrate with lovely work. or the tree is bad tree/doesn't have faith.
I interpret this teaching as: the evident of faith is good work. If one who have faith not die in the same second as he entrust himself to Jesus.
So what Jesus tray to say is: a good tree must bear good fruit. or it is impossible for a man profess have a faith in Jesus and is a robber as his daily work.
Profess to have a faith in Jesus doesn't always mean have a faith in Jesus.
But salvation require genuine faith in Him.
which does not answer my question.It is in the meaning of the words "justification," "salvation," "rebirth," "eternal life," "righteousness," etc.
Justification always means to make right, to align in scripture. It has the same meaning as the word, righteousness. But neither one means a person has inherited eternal life. It also does not mean rebirth. Eternal life is the end result of one's walk of faithfulness with God.
the faith by which one is justified is based on one's belief that Christ died, was raised to life and thereby saved the world from death and sin. The world was saved from death and sin so that God and man could be rejoined in an eternal union of communion. We enter that union by being justified by faith.
So you believe faith save us from the death and sin. Save from the death and sin mean go to heaven isn't ?
that does not answer the statement either. What text/context in scripture are you using that says God "worked within the redeemed"?"Working out" is showing forth the new birth into eternal life in Jesus Christ
which God has "worked within" the redeemed.
No, I believe that Christ was Incarnated, died and rose again thereby saving the world from death and sin. It has nothing to do with going to heaven or hell. it makes it possible that there is a heaven and hell which is the consequence of our living or not living in faith, in Christ.So you believe faith save us from the death and sin. Save from the death and sin mean go to heaven isn't ?