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I do believe this topic is about going to war Cup of Ruin.
Jordan is right I believe. Christians were pacficist mainly because the only military to join was the Roman one and you had to pay allegience to their emperor/ pagan gods, plus the whole culture of the army was anti-christian. But christians were allowed to serve in non-combat roles. Christians who did convert such as Romans in the military usually quit or transferred to non-combat duties.
Jordan is right I believe. Christians were pacficist mainly because the only military to join was the Roman one and you had to pay allegience to their emperor/ pagan gods, plus the whole culture of the army was anti-christian. But christians were allowed to serve in non-combat roles. Christians who did convert such as Romans in the military usually quit or transferred to non-combat duties.
E
Interesting topic.
We are to be in the world but not of the world. If i am sick i do pray for healing but i also take myself to the drug store and pick up some medicine to help me get better.
If I see an act of violence occuring then yes i will step in and i will step in with as much force is needed. What i mean by that is will i step in between the person comitting the act and the person recieving it. Have done it before and it usually ends the confrontation because most people these days want to sit back and see someone get the snot kicked out of them instead of stepping in between and ending it.
I know that this is not on the scale of a "war" but just an example. Now we in the us have just seen an example of this scenario. The ft. hood incident. a madman starts killing people and is stopped by being shot himself. He is still alive. In this case certain force must be applied to stop the killing that was started, if not more people will die.
not sure about the military part because the choice is taken out of your hands at that time and you are under oath to carry out any order given to you without question. Would like to see some more comments on this one.
We are to be in the world but not of the world. If i am sick i do pray for healing but i also take myself to the drug store and pick up some medicine to help me get better.
If I see an act of violence occuring then yes i will step in and i will step in with as much force is needed. What i mean by that is will i step in between the person comitting the act and the person recieving it. Have done it before and it usually ends the confrontation because most people these days want to sit back and see someone get the snot kicked out of them instead of stepping in between and ending it.
I know that this is not on the scale of a "war" but just an example. Now we in the us have just seen an example of this scenario. The ft. hood incident. a madman starts killing people and is stopped by being shot himself. He is still alive. In this case certain force must be applied to stop the killing that was started, if not more people will die.
not sure about the military part because the choice is taken out of your hands at that time and you are under oath to carry out any order given to you without question. Would like to see some more comments on this one.
G
greatkraw I am talking about early christians, which is well before Cromwell and WW1 lol. Jews and early christians were excempt from military service in the Roman army. Also, Christians refused to do military service to the Roman Empire due to them being Christians, or do the necessary homage to their pagan gods etc. Many were martyred because of it.
Yes I'm talking about prior to the time before Constantine saw that painting crosses on the shields of the soldiers resulted in victories for them. Superstition at best. The Romans became Christian, the Christians did not become Roman. True Christians, biblical era, were all pacifist. Roman converts, called up for military service or serving in the military, were martyred. If we strive for biblical christianity we also will be pacifist. But if we prefer to be a Roman convert following the footsteps of Constantine then by all means, buy a gun, and go fight in the war in Afghanistan "for Christ".
C
Why would I want to protect heroin crops in Afganistan for the CIA? no thanks...
Biblical Christianty is not pacifist. Say your walking along deserted road and you come across a man and he is torturing a young girl, and the young girl looks up to you and screams 'help, help, this man is hurting me, he's going to kill me!!!' you notivce the young girl has alot of blood on her and the man is screaming wildly and has a knife in his hand which is dripping with blood, the man goes to slash the girl with the knife, she is defenseless and there is no one to help her. What would you do, 'Snail, well I know what you would do, you would do nothing, you would turn your eyes away, mumble something about Jesus, misquote something and then shuffle off, leaving the young girl to her unfortunate fate, that's what a pacifist would do, non-violence....It's not what a true Christian would do, but true Christians are not cowardly pacifists.
Biblical Christianty is not pacifist. Say your walking along deserted road and you come across a man and he is torturing a young girl, and the young girl looks up to you and screams 'help, help, this man is hurting me, he's going to kill me!!!' you notivce the young girl has alot of blood on her and the man is screaming wildly and has a knife in his hand which is dripping with blood, the man goes to slash the girl with the knife, she is defenseless and there is no one to help her. What would you do, 'Snail, well I know what you would do, you would do nothing, you would turn your eyes away, mumble something about Jesus, misquote something and then shuffle off, leaving the young girl to her unfortunate fate, that's what a pacifist would do, non-violence....It's not what a true Christian would do, but true Christians are not cowardly pacifists.
Ahh yes, I see it now, Super Cup of Ruin , wearing his red cape and blue underpants on the outside of his trousers, rushes to the aid of the poor defenseless girl, shouting, "don't worry, Im a Christian!", as he delivers a swift Krav Maga combo to the assailant rendering him helpless, and disarming him at the same time. After which she says, (two buck teeth with braces and blonde pigtails and all, I think she might be Celtic or even of Trojan-stock 
), "thankyou thuper Cup of Ruin, you're my hero, I want to become a big strong Chrithtian like you".
Actually the cops say you need to do nothing, call emergency.., let them deal with it.
), "thankyou thuper Cup of Ruin, you're my hero, I want to become a big strong Chrithtian like you".Actually the cops say you need to do nothing, call emergency.., let them deal with it.
C
Ahh yes, I see it now, Super Cup of Ruin , wearing his red cape and blue underpants on the outside of his trousers, rushes to the aid of the poor defenseless girl, shouting, "don't worry, Im a Christian!", as he delivers a swift Krav Maga combo to the assailant rendering him helpless, and disarming him at the same time. After which she says, (two buck teeth with braces and blonde pigtails and all, I think she might be Celtic or even of Trojan-stock ), "thankyou thuper Cup of Ruin, you're my hero, I want to become a big strong Chrithtian like you".
Actually the cops say you need to do nothing, call emergency.., let them deal with it.
), "thankyou thuper Cup of Ruin, you're my hero, I want to become a big strong Chrithtian like you".Actually the cops say you need to do nothing, call emergency.., let them deal with it.
J
Why is it, when confronted with pacifism, people resort to hypotheticals? We can sit here until we're grey posing "What if?" The fact of the matter is, Christianity and pacifism are inexorably linked, and denying that takes a lot of mental gymnastics and revisionist history.
Check out this link http://salsa.net/peace/conv/8weekconv7-4.html for more on anti-pacifism and hypotheticals.
J
thefightinglamb- I appreciate your interest in this topic, and I wouldn't mind discussing this with you in a one-on-one setting, but I just cant discuss this topic in the forums anymore. I get beat up too much, and it is just too disheartening for me to see so many Christians condoning violence or making people of peace look like cowards. It makes me angry, and raises my blood pressure to unsafe levels. "
"
I wanted to say, I hope you do participate. I will gladly defend your freedom to take your stand and in no way do I see you perspective as being that of a coward. The non-violent approach properly implimented takes a proactive involvement that comes with great sacrifice and requires self-discipline. Great things have been done through non-violent approaches to problem solving.
War is also greatly abused and often involves heavy doses of might makes right. It is a messy world we live in.
S
Just because Jesus drove people off with a whip doesn't mean he hit anybody. I can drive people off my front yard with a gun without shooting them. Just because he defended the woman doesn't mean he was round-housing people.
In Matthew 10:34 Jesus says - "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword."
I can't find the verse but it is said that if you know of a sin and don't do anything about it you're committing the sin also. I would say this applies to rape.
I believe we should avoid seeking conflict, if it comes to us we should bless and forgive, and if we see somebody being threatened we should come to their defense (words first, fists second).
In Matthew 10:34 Jesus says - "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword."
I can't find the verse but it is said that if you know of a sin and don't do anything about it you're committing the sin also. I would say this applies to rape.
I believe we should avoid seeking conflict, if it comes to us we should bless and forgive, and if we see somebody being threatened we should come to their defense (words first, fists second).
T
The 'want-to-be' pacifists side of me saw a point that that pacifists should bring up time and time again....
So when Jesus was arrested to be persecuted and when he says this 'those who live by the sword die by the sword'--it SEEMS that if EVER there was a time for defending the innocent it was HERE. If EVER physical war could be justified, then SURELY PETER and the rest of the disciples fight to the death before Jesus is hauled away over their dead bodies...but instead, Jesus insists that they not fight by the sword, but that they let him be persecuted.
As I was writing this, I thought of a response to my own thought...but Jesus was NOT defenseless, HE even says thousands upon thousands of angels would defend Him at his command...so He was not defenseless in the way that most people are.
It is very interesting to ponder what the other Christians that were with Paul were doing in the town where he was being persecuted in all the ways he says; did they flee the cities? Did they stand by like blind pacifists (not meaning to offend but meaning that they were unwilling to stand up for either Paul in his persecutions or even confess to be Christians? Would it have been right for them to try to take Paul's side and defend him from say getting stoned, by being stoned themselves, or should they have tried to stop the stone throwers by any means possible, perhaps even throwing stones to defend Paul? Were they more afraid of what man thought than what God thought?)
So lets step into the situation and see what we should do. Say you are a Christian and Paul or Stephen is getting stoned right in front of you...what should you do?
1-step into the line of stones and get killed/stoned yourself
2-try to talk the stoners out of it, (continued situation they don't stop) pray and turn a blind eye
3-push some of the stone throwers to try and get them to stop, if that does not work, throw a few to the ground, if they start fighting, fight them back, and if necessary throw stones at them to try and save Paul's life or say Stephen's life (because he actually died by stoning and you have to wonder if their were Christians onlookers cowardly looking on?)
4-watch as an innocent life is mercilessly taken, pray for the heroics of the martyr and for the repentance of the stoners, but 'what could you do?'
5-talk the ear off of the stoners even as they are killing their victim
6-Pray--who are you to get involved with other's affairs?
Just thoughts
God bless
tony
So when Jesus was arrested to be persecuted and when he says this 'those who live by the sword die by the sword'--it SEEMS that if EVER there was a time for defending the innocent it was HERE. If EVER physical war could be justified, then SURELY PETER and the rest of the disciples fight to the death before Jesus is hauled away over their dead bodies...but instead, Jesus insists that they not fight by the sword, but that they let him be persecuted.
As I was writing this, I thought of a response to my own thought...but Jesus was NOT defenseless, HE even says thousands upon thousands of angels would defend Him at his command...so He was not defenseless in the way that most people are.
It is very interesting to ponder what the other Christians that were with Paul were doing in the town where he was being persecuted in all the ways he says; did they flee the cities? Did they stand by like blind pacifists (not meaning to offend but meaning that they were unwilling to stand up for either Paul in his persecutions or even confess to be Christians? Would it have been right for them to try to take Paul's side and defend him from say getting stoned, by being stoned themselves, or should they have tried to stop the stone throwers by any means possible, perhaps even throwing stones to defend Paul? Were they more afraid of what man thought than what God thought?)
So lets step into the situation and see what we should do. Say you are a Christian and Paul or Stephen is getting stoned right in front of you...what should you do?
1-step into the line of stones and get killed/stoned yourself
2-try to talk the stoners out of it, (continued situation they don't stop) pray and turn a blind eye
3-push some of the stone throwers to try and get them to stop, if that does not work, throw a few to the ground, if they start fighting, fight them back, and if necessary throw stones at them to try and save Paul's life or say Stephen's life (because he actually died by stoning and you have to wonder if their were Christians onlookers cowardly looking on?)
4-watch as an innocent life is mercilessly taken, pray for the heroics of the martyr and for the repentance of the stoners, but 'what could you do?'
5-talk the ear off of the stoners even as they are killing their victim
6-Pray--who are you to get involved with other's affairs?
Just thoughts
God bless
tony
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C
Jesus did let Himself die even though Pharisees had alreay sought to kill Him and stone Him, He did not let it happen until He was ready.
He says.
"All ye will be offended because of me this night: for it is written. I will smite the sheperd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered abroad"
Why because Jesus delivered Himself to be crucified according to prophecy, the prophecy had to be fulfilled and the the blood of the New Testament needed to be shed.
"But all this is done, that the scriptures of the prophets be fulfilled"
"the Son of man goeth as it is written of Him."
He says.
"All ye will be offended because of me this night: for it is written. I will smite the sheperd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered abroad"
Why because Jesus delivered Himself to be crucified according to prophecy, the prophecy had to be fulfilled and the the blood of the New Testament needed to be shed.
"But all this is done, that the scriptures of the prophets be fulfilled"
"the Son of man goeth as it is written of Him."
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