Ineffable Redemption

[Seeker47]

I do not believe faithful Jews are going to hell. Many apparently disagree. I do not seek to change anyone’s opinion but here are my issues.

YHWH made an everlasting covenant with Abraham to be “…God to you and your descendants after you in all their generations.” This covenant was made because Abraham put his faith in God and it was credited to him as righteousness. A man who puts his faith in YHWH is righteous.

We also know the gifts and callings of God are “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29).

The Hebrew people, during and after the Babylonian exile, were taught in the synagogues that the coming messiah would be an earthly king who would restore the Jewish nation, rebuild the Temple, bring an unprecedented period of world peace, and instruct the whole world about YHWH. They were, in spite of themselves, ignorant of the 300+ messianic references that announced a coming servant Messiah. God’s chosen people, those who spent their entire lives studying the Tanakh, missed this overwhelmingly common information. They had obviously been rendered spiritually blind.

Jump now to St. Paul. Out of faithfulness to his own ineffable redemption, he concludes with certainty that gentiles obtain mercy through the disobedience of the Hebrews. He then completes the circle in Romans 11:31-32, “...even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.”

In the next verse, Paul then adds a final exclamation point, “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out”!

Before you say it, I am familiar with Acts 4:12. Nothing here contradicts that passage.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I don't understand the use of the term ineffable in this context.

 

[Seeker47]

Amazing, wonderful, beyond explanation...

 

[GWH]

I do not believe faithful Jews are going to hell. Many apparently disagree. I do not seek to change anyone’s opinion but here are my issues.

YHWH made an everlasting covenant with Abraham to be “…God to you and your descendants after you in all their generations.” This covenant was made because Abraham put his faith in God and it was credited to him as righteousness. A man who puts his faith in YHWH is righteous.

We also know the gifts and callings of God are “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29).

The Hebrew people, during and after the Babylonian exile, were taught in the synagogues that the coming messiah would be an earthly king who would restore the Jewish nation, rebuild the Temple, bring an unprecedented period of world peace, and instruct the whole world about YHWH. They were, in spite of themselves, ignorant of the 300+ messianic references that announced a coming servant Messiah. God’s chosen people, those who spent their entire lives studying the Tanakh, missed this overwhelmingly common information. They had obviously been rendered spiritually blind.

Jump now to St. Paul. Out of faithfulness to his own ineffable redemption, he concludes with certainty that gentiles obtain mercy through the disobedience of the Hebrews. He then completes the circle in Romans 11:31-32, “...even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.”

In the next verse, Paul then adds a final exclamation point, “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out”!

Before you say it, I am familiar with Acts 4:12. Nothing here contradicts that passage.

37. Romans 11:5-7a refers to an elect “remnant chosen by grace”, which indicates that sinners may cooperate with God’s calling to be s/e “or not” (#35).

38. Romans 11:7b-8 needs to be understood in the context of pharaoh (#32), whose heart God allowed to be hardened. “God gave them a spirit of stupor” echoes what Paul said in Romans 1:24 & 28, that God gave fools over to perversion and a depraved mind.

39. Romans 11:11-15 speaks of the blindness of Israel as the reason s/e was offered to Gentiles,

and Paul hopes Israel will become envious (v.11 & 14) and prompted to accept Christ.

40. Romans 11:17-24 describes the situation of Israel as comparable to grafting branches onto a tree, and the condition of faith (#37) is quite explicit (v.20-23).

41. Romans 11:25-32 explains the s/e of corporate Israel as a partial and temporary hardening until all in corporate Gentiles “may” be s/e, at which time all Israel “may” be s/e.

42. Romans 11:33-36 concludes Paul’s development of the DOE by acknowledging that God’s mind is unknowable beyond what He reveals.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I do not believe faithful Jews are going to hell.

Define what you mean by faithful

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

41. Romans 11:25-32 explains the s/e of corporate Israel as a partial and temporary hardening until all in corporate Gentiles “may” be s/e, at which time all Israel “may” be s/e.

Temporary is not explicitly stated in that verse. Until could mean partial blindness until the very end

 

[Seeker47]

Define what you mean by faithful

Faithful to the covenant. In a word, righteousness before God. I believe that is what Judaism pursues.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Faithful to the covenant. In a word, righteousness before God. I believe that is what Judaism pursues.

But they obviously aren't faithful to God's covenant; not the old one which doesn't exist anymore, nor the new covenant.

 

[Seeker47]

But they obviously aren't faithful to God's covenant; not the old one which doesn't exist anymore, nor the new covenant.

How can an "everlasting covenant" made by God no longer exist. That turns God into a liar.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

How can an "everlasting covenant" made by God no longer exist. That turns God into a liar.

The word translated as everlasting doesn't mean forever. The covenant of circumcision was "everlasting", but that obviously didn't mean forever because Paul said circumcision is nothing

He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Genesis 17:13​

​

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Corinthians 7:19​

​

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Galatians 5:6​

 

[Seeker47]

The word translated as everlasting doesn't mean forever. The covenant of circumcision was "everlasting", but that obviously didn't mean forever because Paul said circumcision is nothing

He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Genesis 17:13​

​

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Corinthians 7:19​

​

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Galatians 5:6​

My post was not about circumcision. Although I know this is diverting the intent of the OP, I will respond.

God's covenant with Abraham was given to him and his descendants, not to gentiles. That was Paul's point. His statements were addressed to Jewish converts to Christianity. Paul did go on say to the Torah believing Jews present, “What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God”. He did not condemn Jews!

Paul went on to repeat God’s First Testament instructions from Deut. 10:16, “He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart…”

Followers of Yeshua still need spiritual circumcision of the heart.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

My post was not about circumcision. Although I know this is diverting the intent of the OP, I will respond.

God's covenant with Abraham was given to him and his descendants, not to gentiles. That was Paul's point. His statements were addressed to Jewish converts to Christianity. Paul did go on say to the Torah believing Jews present, “What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God”. He did not condemn Jews!

Paul went on to repeat God’s First Testament instructions from Deut. 10:16, “He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart…”

Followers of Yeshua still need spiritual circumcision of the heart.

My point wasn't about circumcision. I merely used it as an example to show that the Hebrew word olam doesn't mean forever; it means indefinite, or over the horizon whose end cannot be seen. There are other examples.

 

[lrs68]

Isaiah, Yeshua, and Paul spoke/wrote about the same condition of blindness and deafness the Jews would suffer for the sake of the Gentiles.

Obviously, it was done so Yeshua would be rejected to fulfill His purpose in Death, Burial, Resurrection.

But Isaiah and Yeshua never said the Jews would be rejected and no longer the Chosen people of God. In fact, we see this very day since 1947 how much God is involved with the State of Israel.

So one must interpret Paul's writing to align with Isaiah and Yeshua because if Paul's Letters are Inspired then they must confirm what Isaiah wrote and what Yeshua told His Disciples.

 

[GWH]

Temporary is not explicitly stated in that verse. Until could mean partial blindness until the very end

In Rom. 11:25 "in part" means partial; "until" implicitly means temporary,
because if it were permanent, there would be no "until".

The more problematic part of that passage is "all Israel will be saved".
What in Paul's name is that supposed to mean? (cf. 2Pet. 3:15-16)

 

[GWH]

The word translated as everlasting doesn't mean forever. The covenant of circumcision was "everlasting", but that obviously didn't mean forever because Paul said circumcision is nothing

He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Genesis 17:13​

​

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Corinthians 7:19​

​

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Galatians 5:6​

Good point. "Everlasting" in the OT means indefinitely,
and with hindsight we understand that it can/must mean until the NT/NC is revealed.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

In Rom. 11:25 "in part" means partial; "until" implicitly means temporary,
because if it were permanent, there would be no "until".

The more problematic part of that passage is "all Israel will be saved".
What in Paul's name is that supposed to mean? (cf. 2Pet. 3:15-16)

I agree "until" indicates temporary, but does that mean the partial blindness will be ended because the blindness is removed or because the blinded are destroyed at the lord's return? I'm 100% certain it means the latter, as well as the salvation of a believing remnant that has had their blindness removed because of faith.

Considering the fact that Paul takes pains throughout Romans 9-11 to make the point that only a remnant is ever saved, it stretches credulity to conclude that he meant all at some point in time will be saved. So "all" must refer to the remnant throughout all of time who will all be saved in the same manner, ie, by the new covenant removal of their sins through faith.

 

[GWH]

I agree "until" indicates temporary, but does that mean the partial blindness will be ended because the blindness is removed or because the blinded are destroyed at the lord's return? I'm 100% certain it means the latter, as well as the salvation of a believing remnant that has had their blindness removed because of faith.

Considering the fact that Paul takes pains throughout Romans 9-11 to make the point that only a remnant is ever saved, it stretches credulity to conclude that he meant all at some point in time will be saved. So "all" must refer to the remnant throughout all of time who will all be saved in the same manner, ie, by the new covenant removal of their sins through faith.

I agree with your interpretation that is indicated by what Paul said in Romans 10 & 11,
especially Rom. 10:4&12 (Gal. 3:28) and Rom. 11:5.

 

[Maestro]

God’s chosen people the Jews grew to large numbers but many times through disobedience God destroyed many numerous times Himself by various means and using other nations but always left a remnant.
Then they wanted a king so God allowed them to have them even though this was not a good idea, some good but most very bad even David the best of them ( although a murderer ) and not allowed to build the temple because he was a man of War.
More destruction and then Babylon remnant left, Jesus arrives salvation for believers in Jesus both Jew and now Gentile up to now then the rapture.
Jew are blinded in the main to the saving grace through Christ but at some point their eyes will be opened and realise their messiah had arrived as Jesus said himself Moses wrote about me in the scriptures but did not believe.
This opening of their eyes will probably come in the 7 year tribulation where people will realise Jesus is real and the Bibles, other information, 144000 Jewish evangelists, and Angles going about the Earth will be the biggest number of converts ever.
Never liked the term Messianic Jews as they are Christians.

 

[Cameron143]

Faithful to the covenant. In a word, righteousness before God. I believe that is what Judaism pursues.

To be righteous before God one must possess the righteousness of Christ. The old covenant is insufficient to produce this. Only the imputed righteousness of Christ is sufficient.