Yes, but that has nothing to do with water IMO. Physical birth, then born of water (repentance into forgiveness of sin creating a clean conscience) and spirit (faith) to enter the kingdom of God.
Interprertation of John 3:5 born by water and born again by spirit.
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Yes, but that has nothing to do with water IMO. Physical birth, then born of water (repentance into forgiveness of sin creating a clean conscience) and spirit (faith) to enter the kingdom of God.
Who said that I was trying to discourage any new Christians from obeying God after conversion by receiving water baptism? I encourage ALL Christians to receive water baptism AFTER they place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and are saved. I personally could not wait to get water baptized AFTER I was saved through faith in Jesus Christ. I even gave about a 5-minute testimony on how I finally came to place my faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, after previously being led astray by the church that I was born and raised in. I can't name one Christian that I know who has refused to receive water baptism AFTER their conversion. Baptism put it in its proper place, subsequent to salvation through faith in Christ as all works must be. This does not remove good works (including water baptism) from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and salvation. (Acts 10:43-47; Ephesians 2:10)Well, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living amniotic fluid" sounds worse.
So water is water.
Also, the Bible never says that water baptism is the source or means of becoming born again. Baptism is something a Christian does because God said so and it means a lot to Him. I don't understand why you would try to discourage any new Christians from obey God on that.
John isn't talking about ambiotic fluid here. He's talking about overcomers who through the "water" of repentance (acknowledging sin) receive a clean conscience and through faith receive forgiveness in Christ's blood
Who is the one overcoming the world, except the one believing that Jesus is the son of God? This is the one coming through water and blood. Jesus the Christ, not in the water only, but in the water and the blood; and the spirit is the one bearing witness, for the spirit is the truth. 1 John 5:5-6
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8
Born of water iMO is acknowledging sin which cleanses the conscience. That is what the water baptism of John was all about
Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, acknowledging their sins. Matthew 3:5-6
When we acknowledge sin the spirit witnesses through the washing of water in the word that we are forgiven through the blood and cleanses our conscience of guilt
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it [ie, blood]; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water in the word [ie, water], That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. Ephesians 5:25-27
Less new Christians are willing to get water baptized because they're being taught it's not important. I agree it's not salvific, but it is important because Jesus went through with it, and God the Father and the Holy Spirit showed up for it. If it meant so much to God, we should obey God's command about it - especially if a new Christian really did make Jesus not only his Savior, but his Lord as well.
Also, all the new Christians in the new testament got water baptized as soon as they could. Why is an option now? And I also think it's a sort of test. If a person doesn't get baptized and just dismisses it, what else will that person disobey God on?
So you might be explaining it properly, but it would give the less devoted new Christian an excuse not to get water baptized. I think Christians preparing new Christians should point out how important it is to God and the early Christians.
If our conscience is cleansed of guilt, then we have confidence to stand in God's presence without shame and have fellowship with him. But if our conscience is not clean, because we have not acknowledged sin, then God knows and witnesses through his spirit that we aren't abiding in the light, ie, the truth that we've sinned. Acknowledging sin in faith (water) cleanses the conscience and restores fellowship because we are walking in the light, ie, the truth that we've sinned.
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, [then] have we confidence toward God. 1 John 3:18-21
Ephesians 5:25-26 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up
for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present
her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless...
for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present
her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless...
in Judaism there were several things called being 'born again' - - some of them:
- barmitzvah/batmitzvah
- converting to Judaism
- becoming a rabbi ((teacher))
this is a conversation at an extremely high level - God and the wisest rabbi in all of the land. do not think of it as any less.
i agree with others who previously put that verse 6 is intimately connected to verse 5,explaining it and referring back to Nicodemus's reply that hyoerbically speaks of physical birth.
reborn, after all, clearly implies a first birth. that is the physical, by water, as the mother's womb opens. to be reborn one must have been born in the first place - - pointing out the innocence of those who die in childbirth or stillborn.
and then also, a second time, by Spirit.
see John - - who wrote the gospel of John BTW - - explaining it himself:
1 John 5:1
Whoever believes
that Jesus is the Christ
is born of God
no mention of water immersion.no mention of speaking in tongues.
no mention of fastiduous monetary donations.
no mention of church attendance.
no mention of good deeds.
no mention of sabbath keeping.
no mention of wearing or jot wearing pants.
no mention of KJV.
no mention of a sinless walk.
just faith.
compare:
John 6:43-44
Jesus therefore answered and said to them,
"Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."
we are nothing without His intervention in us. we can't even believe unless He exerts His force on us.how? by His Spirit drawing us, pulling us out of the womb into Life.
just my ((scripturally substantiated)) opinion:
born of water = born in the flesh
born of Spirit = coming to faith
all I can say is
John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
First birth for everyone is Flesh birth, second birth is Spirit of God Father to live in and through us, at least me thanks
Acts 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
then Pentecost happened
New born new life became to be and is still happening presently from God Father in risen Son Jesus, given people to see new in God's Spirit and Truth the Holy Spirit, that loves us all
God himself in Spirit and Truth does the true Baptism, not anyone else, at least me, this be what I presently see and do not accuse or excuse anyone whatever another believes or not believes, free choice remains to choose, thank you Father and Son as Won (One)
From what I gather, the water spoken of in John 3:5 is a figure of speech for
eternal life-- a.k.a. everlasting life --which is a quality of life that's given quite a bit
of attention in John's gospel; for example:
● John 3:14-15 . . Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of
Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
● John 3:16 . . For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
● John 3:36 . . He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that
believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
● John 5:24 . . Verily, verily, I say unto you: He that heareth my word, and
believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into
condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
● John 6:40 . . And this is the will of Him that sent me: that every one which seeth
the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life
● John 6:47 . .Verily, verily, I say unto you: he that believeth on me hath
everlasting life.
● John 10:27-28 . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish
● John 17:2 . . As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give
eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Now if perchance the living water that Jesus spoke of in John's 4th chapter is the
self-same water he spoke of in John 3:5, then we are assured that it's a free-bee
available upon request to anyone who wants it.
● John 4:10 . . Jesus answered and said unto her: If thou knewest the gift of God,
and who it is that saith to thee "Give me to drink" thou wouldest have asked of
him, and he would have given thee living water.
● Rev 22:17 . . And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him that
heareth say, Come! And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let
him take the water of life freely.
_
That incident is on record at Num 21:5-9
Long story short: Moses' people became weary of eating manna all the time at
every meal. But instead of courteously, and diplomatically, petitioning their divine
benefactor for a different diet, they became indignant and confrontational; angrily
demanding better accommodations.
In response to their insolence, and their ingratitude for His providence; God sent a
swarm of deadly poisonous snakes amongst them; which began striking people;
and every strike was 100% fatal, no exceptions.
After a number of people died, the rest came to their senses and begged Moses to
intercede. In reply; The Lord instructed Moses to fashion a replica of the snakes
and hoist it up on a pole in plain view so that everyone dying from venom could
look to it for relief.
The key issue here is that the replica was the only God-given remedy for the
people's bites-- not sacrifices and offerings, not tithing, not church attendance, not
scapulars, not confession, not holy days of obligation, not the Sabbath, not
rosaries, not weeping, not the golden rule, not charity, not Bible study, yeshiva,
catechism, and/or Sunday school, not self denial, not vows of poverty, not the Ten
Commandments, not the Eucharist, nor even one's ideology of choice, i.e. it
wouldn't have mattered whether somebody was Muslim, Hindu, Jew, Buddhist,
Catholic, Protestant, Baha'i, Atheist, Agnostic, Pagan, or whatever-- the replica was
it; nothing else would suffice to save their lives.
As an allegory, the replica speaks of Christ's crucifixion for the sins of the world as
the only God-given protection from the judgment that's coming.
FAQ: How might one go about looking to Christ like those folks back then looked to
that replica?
REPLY: I recommend RSVP.
Find a quiet place; anywhere will do. Cover you face with your hands-- doing so will
give you a sense of connection --and tell God, under your breath or out loud if you
like, that you have never yet measured up to His standards and you're pretty sure
you never will. Tell Him you would like to take advantage of His son's death to
protect yourself from retribution.
_
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Water
From the base of G5205; water (as if rainy) literally or figuratively: - water.
It means water baptism.
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.
Baptized
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.
Some people have the wrong belief concerning water baptism but it is to identify with Jesus' death.
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Baptism does now save us like Noah was saved by water.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
We have to identify with the man Christ Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, by repenting, being water baptized, and receiving the Spirit, and we are a living sacrifice.
1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father.
Some people try to cut out the middle man by saying it is a work.
But faith is a work for all we do and say is a work.
They do not understand that we are saved by faith, and not works, when we initially confess Christ for that is all we can do.
But after we receive the Spirit we have to have works of love or our faith is no good.
They say saving faith will have works but those works do not save us.
But the Bible says we have to have works of love to be saved.
Love is greater than faith and faith works by love.
It is not faith alone but love alone and everything stems from love.
Paul said he could have all faith so he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity, love in action, works, then he is nothing.
James said without charity their faith is dead, and a person is justified by works and not faith alone.
Paul and James say the same thing after a person receives the Spirit.
John said without charity the love of God does not dwell in them.
So do not love in word, nor in tongue, but in deed, works, and truth.
Which love can only be valid in works which is not a part time thing.
Love is greater than faith and hope.
They are trying to carry not saved by works in their Christian walk but we have to have works of love to be saved.
Also water baptism is done in Jesus' name.
Jesus said He came in the Father's name.
The Son inherited the name from the Father.
The Holy Spirit comes in the name of Jesus.
Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are titles not names.
And it says name which is singular.
The Bible says Jesus is the only name that saves.
And all we do in word or deed is to be done in Jesus' name.
So why would we use the titles.
The disciples baptized Jews, Gentiles, and Samaritans, in the name of Jesus in the book of Acts.
It seems that v6 gives the answer to what is meant in v5:
NRSVue
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of
God without being born of water and Spirit.
Joh 3:6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
A comment from John Gill: “water baptism is never expressed by water only, without some additional word, which shows, that the ordinance of water baptism is intended”
I believe being born of water points to the natural birth process for babies.. Part of the birth process inclues ""breaking"" the mothers water.. Being Born in the Spirit i believe is pointing to the baptism of the Holy Spirit where we recieve the indwelling of the Holy Spirit through believing Jesus and trusting in His Atonement for our salvation..
In Jesus' time there were two types of proselytes to the Jewish religion: proselytes of the gate and proselytes of righteousness.
Proselytes of the gate were simply required to follow certain rules to attend the synagogues (see Acts 15:20, 29) and were not required to be immersed in water.
Proselytes of righteousness were formal converts to the Jewish religion and were required to be circumcised and follow the law. Also they were required to be immersed in water as a symbol of being cleansed from their former lives, ie, the end of their former life in the waters of death.
So Israel was familiar with water baptism as being a sign of death to the old life and birth into a new life. Being born anew in water was the first step, but not the only step because John warned them that he baptized with the water, but there was one coming who would baptize them with holy spirit.
So it was a 2 step process of being born into the kingdom of God: the symbolic putting off of the old lfe and being cleansed in "water" and then the filling of the cleansed and sanctified vessel with holy spirit
Proselytes of the gate were simply required to follow certain rules to attend the synagogues (see Acts 15:20, 29) and were not required to be immersed in water.
Proselytes of righteousness were formal converts to the Jewish religion and were required to be circumcised and follow the law. Also they were required to be immersed in water as a symbol of being cleansed from their former lives, ie, the end of their former life in the waters of death.
So Israel was familiar with water baptism as being a sign of death to the old life and birth into a new life. Being born anew in water was the first step, but not the only step because John warned them that he baptized with the water, but there was one coming who would baptize them with holy spirit.
So it was a 2 step process of being born into the kingdom of God: the symbolic putting off of the old lfe and being cleansed in "water" and then the filling of the cleansed and sanctified vessel with holy spirit
It would be a little less argumenative if we get out of the habit of searching the internet & search for literal context instead.
It was the next verse down that had the answer, just sayin'.
BTW, studying the internet Is NOT studying to show yourself approved of God. & arguing is NOT edifying.
It was the next verse down that had the answer, just sayin'.
BTW, studying the internet Is NOT studying to show yourself approved of God. & arguing is NOT edifying.
If being born of water is flesh, and everyone is already born in flesh, why does Jesus imply that people must born of water again?
That wouldn't counter what Nicodemus says at all. Water's fluid, it seeps through and finds its ways, it refreshes; but flesh can't do that.
How do I react to a reaction? I'd like to X mark my X.
That wouldn't counter what Nicodemus says at all. Water's fluid, it seeps through and finds its ways, it refreshes; but flesh can't do that.
How do I react to a reaction? I'd like to X mark my X.