Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[LactoseIntolerant]

my opinion is worthless and it really doesn't matter what you think.
what matters is what God says.
that being the case, if you want to talk about hell, it means it's word-study time, and you and i both can leave our feelings and opinions about what makes sense or is just at the door. God did not poll our opinions when He established the truth. we agree about this much, yes?

so -- not that i'm qualified at all, but let's get the ball rolling on something actually worthwhile on the subject instead of back-and-forth opinion vs. opinion and feelings vs feelings and yeah-this-is-clearly-wrong-but-i'm-going-to-keep-saying-it vs. facts.



'hell' is not in the Bible at all. that's an English word.

in the Hebrew it's ubiquitously 'sheol'
in the Greek, we have hades used interchangeably for sheol; when NT authors quote OT scriptures containing sheol they directly substitute hades.
but also in the Greek we have gehenna, and we have 1 verse in Peter mentioning tartaroo.
this all bears some examination. let's start with tartaroo --

For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment​

(2 Peter 2:4)​

​

this is the only place this word is found in the Bible.
for our purposes, it's important to know that this verse ((i quoted nkjv but most follow suit)) does not actually have the word hell in it at all. the whole phrase 'cast them down to hell' is one word in Greek, tartarōsas
that's a verb. it's where the word 'tartarus' in Greek mythos stems from, but Peter doesn't say 'tartarus' -- Peter uses the verb tartaroo.
tartaroo as far as i can tell means to thrust down / push down in an ultimate sense; i.e. as low down as it's possible to push.
the KJV translators apparently didn't really know what to make of this but they figured they knew where evil angels ought to be, so they put it as 'cast to hell' in English.

so: Peter doesn't specifically say where these angels were put ((does 'where' make sense for spiritual beings anyway? or is where only a physical terminology? we going to have to eventually get into topological discussions)). Peter says they are cast down & chained, and that ((very interestingly)) they are reserved for judgement. they have not yet been judged - not in a 'final' sense.
so wherever they are, whatever their present state is, it's analogous to a 'holding cell' -- we can think of it modern terms as being incarcerated waiting for trial.

are they in hell?
if you're a KJV-onlyist, you're bound by oath to say yes ((lol - my friends, i kid. i do love you))
but in Revelation we find later they are cast into the lake of fire -- so then maybe mr. i-don't-like-milk has a case with you, because he's going to say, ok what is the lake of fire? is that hell? but these guys were already in hell, according to KJB, so do you have 2 hells or do you have them taken out of hell and put right back into it?
in a modern sense, that's kinda analogous to you are put in jail, you go to trial, you go back to jail. but the reality even in the modern system is that there are county detention centers you get held in, then after trial, you may go to an actual prison. they are two different places. jail is not equal to prison. i'll leave it to people with actual experience in such matters to give their testimony of what's worse, but we have a place where we detain people against whom there is much evidence of guilt ((jail)) until they are judged, and then we have a whole other place after the day of judgement where they go.

but getting back to the focus of our attention: what is tartaroo? it is being thrust down and chained. it's the result of an immediate judgement before the day of trial. so, we have obvious questions to answer:

• who are these angels?
• where are they now?
  • is it hell?
    • what is hell? it's not even Greek/Hebrew. do we have a definition of it?
  • is it sheol?
  • is it hades?
    • are sheol/hades truly interchangeable terms?
  • is it the lake of fire?
    • is sheol the lake of fire?
    • is hades the lake of fire?
    • is gehenna the lake of fire?
  • is it 'death' ?
    • does death belong in this conversation at all?
    • is death a different construct than the things English-speakers call hell?
    • is death = sheol?
    • is death = hades?
    • is death = Abraham's bosom?
    • is death = gehenna?
    • is death something altogether different; is it apples & oranges to the question of hell?
• why are they wherever they are?
  • what's the point of being chained awaiting judgement? why not just judge them immediately? doesn't God know all the evidence?
  • is He giving them space to repent?
  • can they repent?
  • is God cruel & unjust if He is just 'making them sweat' when their final judgement is a foregone conclusion?
  • is God merciful and good if He waits until the appointed time?
  • why is there an appointed time?
  • if there is an appointed time, why chain them in **wherever they are** ? why not just wait till the time?
• is Peter actually making allusions to Tartarus per Greek mythos? is that why he uses this word?
• does Peter mean for us to understand this as 'hell' or is this a mistranslation?
  • is 'hell' even a good use of language?
  • what is i-don't-like-milk's concept of hell?
    • are those concepts scriptural or cultural?
  • should we avoid using the word 'hell' altogether because of its inaccurate cultural connotations?

i think i've written enough for a good starting point for now -- and i've left so, so much out, but i realize how long this single post is getting already -- frankly i am not interested in entertaining mr. phone's vain love for arguing anymore over his thoroughly disproven hypothesis, so i'm glad for a better topic for discussion. and frankly, i'm currently working 60+ hour weeks for the next year-ish so while i may have time to think i have very little time to correspond. i say that because i know some of my posts seem curt and possibly rude, but i want you to know i like the direction you're moving the discussion to, but i am sorry that i simply don't have the luxury of fully engaging in the discussion.



tldr:
the Bible is not an English-language text. it uses a lot of words that wind up being translated as 'hell' or wind up being incorporated into our idea of what 'hell' is -- but the Bible is a lot more complex than that. the fact that several different words God uses get lumped into one blanket term 'hell' should immediately make us stop and think, wait, is my idea of 'hell' correct? and the way to find out is to set aside all of our presuppositions and opinions and humbly look at what God actually says, carefully, ask lots of questions, and look for answers.

Like I said before, the crux of the interpretations is the immortality of the soul. I reject it, you uphold it, your friend upholds it too. So seeing these things are proven and fundamental, all subsequent interpretaions will follow suit. It is inevitable. My prediction is that we will descend to legalistic, interpretative arguments unconvincing to both sides. Hell is a side branch. The trunk is the immortal soul.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Why are you TWISTING my words like Satan would do?

I defend God and Jesus with blasphemies from without and from within. Not twisting. Just speaking the blunt truth. Your spirit is evident.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Very weird post.

What's on your mind?

Breakfast.
What is on yours?

 

[Duckybill]

I defend God and Jesus with blasphemies from without and from within. Not twisting. Just speaking the blunt truth. Your spirit is evident.

Jesus is God. Didn't you even know that? Only Satan's children deny that Jesus is God. YOUR spirit is evident.

 

[Duckybill]

I defend God and Jesus with blasphemies from without and from within. Not twisting. Just speaking the blunt truth. Your spirit is evident.

If you defended Jesus you would not call Him a liar and hellmonger.

"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

 

[1ofthem]

Breakfast.
What is on yours?

Definitely not food.

After reading through posts on CC for a few minutes this morning...I seem to have lost my appetite, for some reason

 

[justbyfaith]

I don’t agree that forever is literally forever there. Besides, to get really specific, Rev. 20:10 says three persons are tormented forever: the devil, beast, and false prophet.

Revelation 20:10 gives a definition of what the experience of the lake of fire will be.

That more than the beast, the false prophet, and satan will be cast there is evident in Revelation 20:15.

I suppose that you might be willing to gamble that the lake of fire does not consist of torment day and night for ever and ever for those other than satan, the beast, and the false prophet. You might decide that the consequences are not so bad...and you might decide to live a lifestyle of sinning because you will only be annihilated and it will not be for ever...because apparently, the lake of fire is torment day and night for ever and ever only for a select few...three, as a matter of fact...and for the rest it means annihilation.

But if you are wrong, you will not be annihilated and the smoke of your torment shall rise for ever and ever (see Revelation 14:9-11).

Are you willing to take that chance?

 

[John146]

Its is an ode. Song of Moses. It is poetry.

Poetry containing truth

 

[John146]

I think I submitted this before. It means Luke did not get the memo of hell either. The concept of hell was not officially expounded, it is just rhetoric.

Hell fire is everlasting. It will eventually be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Journeyman]

How should one show obedience to one's God? That is the question.
Consider discipleship to Jesus
Luke 9:59And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 60Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. 61And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. 62And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

We show obedience to God by surrendering to his Son. As we grow in the Lord, we understand how our Savior showed the love and forgiveness of his Father to people who sinned against him in many ways.

Consider the golden calf
Exo 32:25Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.27Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’ ” 28The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29Then Moses said, “You have been set apart to the Lord today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day.”

These are Archetypes and but these are goals to which we should strive as He is Our God. He is Greater than family and friends. So a little thing to not speak against God is overwhelmed by earthly matters and considerations. God is not spoken as God, but something on a family spectrum where God is not primary, like some crazy uncle thrice removed.
Matthew 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

The delusion of the things of man now does not prepare them for an audience with God later and it is a prison.

I see the story of the Israelites slaying the idolaters among them from the NT perspective of putting the flesh to death. And our Lord rebuked Peter because Peter thought the death of his flesh would be the death of him. We know better now.

 

[Journeyman]

God does not speak to me except through His word.

And His word teaches me that unredeemed sinners face everlasting fire that is everlasting punishment that will be characterized by wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:41, Matthew 24:46, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50).

There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth when sins of the unrepentant are exposed at his judgement seat,

 

[Journeyman]

Belief in the "everlasting fire" is not required for eternal residency therein.
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Couldn't be any clearer to us whom Satan hasn't deceived!

So tell me something my sincere friend. What's the difference between Rev.19:20 and 2Thes.2:8?

 

[justbyfaith]

There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth when sins of the unrepentant are exposed at his judgement seat,

Also, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth when the unredeemed have been cast into the furnace of fire (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50) as the result of the decision of His judgment concerning their iniquities.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Jesus is God. Didn't you even know that? Only Satan's children deny that Jesus is God. YOUR spirit is evident.

Shema, anyone? Or are you going ignore this Command too.

If you defended Jesus you would not call Him a liar and hellmonger.

Your hellbrush, not mine. Jesus is the Door to the House of God. No trap doors to hell.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Definitely not food.

After reading through posts on CC for a few minutes this morning...I seem to have lost my appetite, for some reason

Yeah I know what you mean. Scenes of writhing bodies as one is having a sip of tea just boogles my mind. I think the one picture of dachau, where the corpse are laid up ontop of one another is gruesome enough. But having them writhe in agony while having a baloney sandwich... Only in the minds of hellmongers, I guess.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

Poetry containing truth

Hell fire is everlasting. It will eventually be cast into the lake of fire.

Poetry relates a truth. The truth is the Holy Spirit is described as an Unquenchable Fire. (baptism of Jesus by some of the Apostles - not all)

God's decree is eternal, Only God can grant eternity. Hell and lake of fire are extraneous descriptors.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

We show obedience to God by surrendering to his Son. As we grow in the Lord, we understand how our Savior showed the love and forgiveness of his Father to people who sinned against him in many ways.

I see the story of the Israelites slaying the idolaters among them from the NT perspective of putting the flesh to death. And our Lord rebuked Peter because Peter thought the death of his flesh would be the death of him. We know better now.

I read it more bluntly. It also implies Jesus' ministry top of the priorities. Considerations of this world should not eclipse the instructions of the our God. The observance of hell comes from considerations of this world. Maintanence of a pious order.

The Levites that slew the kinfolk were selected for the cultic priesthood. The maintenance of the Tabernacle and the Temple. To me it also impresses the obedience to God is most valued. Just because aunt lucy objects to the true reading, does mean you give up the true meaning.

I have a more human reading of Peter. Peter was concerned with the fate of his beloved master and insisted it will not be so. Jesus rebuked him because duty to God is paramount and muddying the waters with emotions are not good.

 

[TheLearner]

I learned it from reading the Bible. I don’t recall learning it from anyone in particular.

Brother, I really don't believe you on that.

 

[Journeyman]

Also, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth when the unredeemed have been cast into the furnace of fire (Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50) as the result of the decision of His judgment concerning their iniquities.

The only furnace of fire the unsave face is the presence of our Lord,

Our God shall come, and shall not keep silent;
A fire shall devour before Him,
And it shall be very tempestuous all around Him. Psa.50:3

the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire 2Thes.1:7-8

Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it. Psa.18:8

For our God is a consuming fire. Heb.12:29

looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 2Pet.3:12

The return of our sweet Lord Jesus will be like an ocean of fire.

 

[Journeyman]

I read it more bluntly. It also implies Jesus' ministry top of the priorities. Considerations of this world should not eclipse the instructions of the our God. The observance of hell comes from considerations of this world. Maintanence of a pious order.

The Levites that slew the kinfolk were selected for the cultic priesthood. The maintenance of the Tabernacle and the Temple. To me it also impresses the obedience to God is most valued. Just because aunt lucy objects to the true reading, does mean you give up the true meaning.

I have a more human reading of Peter. Peter was concerned with the fate of his beloved master and insisted it will not be so. Jesus rebuked him because duty to God is paramount and muddying the waters with emotions are not good.

Emotions are given to us by God. I believe God feels things on a level we haven't experienced. To Peter, his concern was for the preservation of life, but life doesn't consist of just the flesh. He learned as we all do.