Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

[John146]

Thanks, I love the KJV. I prefer to keep Genesis 2:7 in harmony with the rest of the "soul" Scriptures. We gotta remember that "soul" means "life" as well as the whole person, the "I", the "ego", the "self". Therefore, Jesus' Spirit ascended to God, His body descended in the Earth which is the tomb, and the man Jesus ceased to be for a few hours.

If we insist Jesus, the "living Soul", continued to exist after His Spirit and Body separated, it's the same thing as saying the light emitted by a bulb with electric current coursing through it will continue to shine even after the current is switched off...which is not possible, right or wrong?

Nice try using the light example to explain scripture. Let’s just stick with what scripture actually says.

Acts 2:
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Ephesians 4:
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

[John146]

Thanks, I love the KJV. I prefer to keep Genesis 2:7 in harmony with the rest of the "soul" Scriptures. We gotta remember that "soul" means "life" as well as the whole person, the "I", the "ego", the "self". Therefore, Jesus' Spirit ascended to God, His body descended in the Earth which is the tomb, and the man Jesus ceased to be for a few hours.

If we insist Jesus, the "living Soul", continued to exist after His Spirit and Body separated, it's the same thing as saying the light emitted by a bulb with electric current coursing through it will continue to shine even after the current is switched off...which is not possible, right or wrong?

You prefer the KJV until it doesn’t fit your narrative? You changed hell to hades and then defined hades to fit your narrative. That’s not good Bible study. Leave the words alone as they stand.

 

[TheLearner]

It's hell not hades...stick with the KJV. It will never fail you. Jesus descended into hell located in the lower parts of the earth. His spirit returned to God. His body placed in the tomb. His soul went to the heart of the earth. This is not the grave. It is a real place called hell. Hell is hot. Hell is a place of torment. Hell is located in the heart of the earth. That's bible. Satan does not want man to believe in such a place.

Ephesians 4:
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Who ascended up on high? Jesus
Who first descended into the lower parts of the earth? Jesus
Whose soul was not left in hell? Jesus

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


Matthew 12:40
Easy-to-Read Version
40 Jonah was in the stomach of the big fish for three days and three nights. In the same way, the Son of Man will be in the grave three days and three nights.

Genesis 42:38

But Jacob said, “My son shall not go down [to Egypt] with you; for his brother is dead, and he alone is left [of Rachel’s children]. If any harm or accident should happen to him on the journey you are taking, then you will bring my gray hair down to Sheol (the place of the dead) in sorrow.”

"Hades is the state in which all the dead exist. In the New Testament a descent to Hades may simply refer to someone's death and disembodied existence. In this sense even Jesus enters Hades. Following David's prophecy in Psalm 16:10, Peter interprets the resurrection as God delivering Jesus from Hades ( Acts 2:27 Acts 2:31 ). Similarly, Jesus prophesies that the Son of Man will be delivered from the heart of the earth, just as God delivered Jonah from Hades ( Matt 12:40 ). In both instances, Hades refers to a disembodied existence.

The New Testament does not explore Jesus' precise residence or activity while in Hades, unlike the later church traditions of the "harrowing of hell" or a "Hades Gospel." It is widely accepted that the proclamation in 1 Peter 3:19 occurs after rather than before his resurrection (v. 18, "made alive by the Spirit"), and that the dead in 1 Peter 4:6 are deceased believers who heard the gospel while alive. However, Jesus' descent to Hades is theologically important. This is the path of the Old Testament righteous ( Isa 53 ). Furthermore, this descent confirms that God assumed human nature and even our sinful destiny, death ( 2 Corinthians 5:14 2 Corinthians 5:21 ; Heb 2:14 ). Finally, Jesus' deliverance from Hades establishes the new life for humanity ( 1 Cor 15 ).

Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus portrays additional features of this state ( Luke 16:19-31 ). "
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/hades/

 

[TheLearner]

"
Abstract
The unique comparison between Jonah and the Son of Man in the First Gospel has been notoriously difficult for several reasons. First, “three days and three nights” cannot be fitted into the interval of Jesus’s burial in the tomb from Friday evening to Sunday morning; second, the resurrection of Jesus, which is understood by some as “the sign of Jonah,” was not witnessed by “an evil and adulterous generation,” but only by believers in Christ; third, an above sea-level tomb like the one that contained Jesus hardly qualifies as “the heart of the earth” as commonly understood; and fourth, interpreting “the heart of the earth” literally as Sheol still does not resolve the chronological problem. However, the enigma of the Jonah saying unravels with a shift in perspective. This article will recognize that shift and propose a new understanding of this passage."
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/21582440211014178

 

[John146]

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.


Matthew 12:40
Easy-to-Read Version
40 Jonah was in the stomach of the big fish for three days and three nights. In the same way, the Son of Man will be in the grave three days and three nights.

Genesis 42:38

But Jacob said, “My son shall not go down [to Egypt] with you; for his brother is dead, and he alone is left [of Rachel’s children]. If any harm or accident should happen to him on the journey you are taking, then you will bring my gray hair down to Sheol (the place of the dead) in sorrow.”

"Hades is the state in which all the dead exist. In the New Testament a descent to Hades may simply refer to someone's death and disembodied existence. In this sense even Jesus enters Hades. Following David's prophecy in Psalm 16:10, Peter interprets the resurrection as God delivering Jesus from Hades ( Acts 2:27 Acts 2:31 ). Similarly, Jesus prophesies that the Son of Man will be delivered from the heart of the earth, just as God delivered Jonah from Hades ( Matt 12:40 ). In both instances, Hades refers to a disembodied existence.

The New Testament does not explore Jesus' precise residence or activity while in Hades, unlike the later church traditions of the "harrowing of hell" or a "Hades Gospel." It is widely accepted that the proclamation in 1 Peter 3:19 occurs after rather than before his resurrection (v. 18, "made alive by the Spirit"), and that the dead in 1 Peter 4:6 are deceased believers who heard the gospel while alive. However, Jesus' descent to Hades is theologically important. This is the path of the Old Testament righteous ( Isa 53 ). Furthermore, this descent confirms that God assumed human nature and even our sinful destiny, death ( 2 Corinthians 5:14 2 Corinthians 5:21 ; Heb 2:14 ). Finally, Jesus' deliverance from Hades establishes the new life for humanity ( 1 Cor 15 ).

Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus portrays additional features of this state ( Luke 16:19-31 ). "
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/hades/

Jonah died and was in hell suffering affliction. He rejoiced when he was brought back up. I'm sorry, but Jesus did not cease to exist. He was alive and well those three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. He preached to the spirits in prison, got the keys of hell and death, preached the gospel to those in Abraham's bosom, and set the captives free.

Jonah 2:
Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

 

[justbyfaith]

second, the resurrection of Jesus, which is understood by some as “the sign of Jonah,” was not witnessed by “an evil and adulterous generation,” but only by believers in Christ;

The resurrection stands as a testimony and a sign today to non-believers everywhere to the reality and existence of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Sheol, or Hades, is in reference to the place of the dead; which is divided into two compartments:

1) hell, the place of the wicked dead, where the rich man was in the story of Luke 16:19-31;

and,

2) Abraham's bosom; where Lazarus was.

In Abraham's bosom there is not suffering with fire; while in hell there is suffering in fire.

But I would day that referring to Sheol or Hades as hell is merely using shorthand especially if the reference in question is concerning someone who was not righteous.

 

[TheLearner]

Jonah died and was in hell suffering affliction. He rejoiced when he was brought back up. I'm sorry, but Jesus did not cease to exist. He was alive and well those three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. He preached to the spirits in prison, got the keys of hell and death, preached the gospel to those in Abraham's bosom, and set the captives free.

Jonah 2:
Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

I am not sure you can read or being sarcastic? I would expect an intelligent answer from you. The point of the text I quoted is in fact Jesus was in the paradise side of the grave announcing the gospel to the righteous. You post created the funniest straw man I ever witnessed.

 

[TheLearner]

Jonah died and was in hell suffering affliction. He rejoiced when he was brought back up. I'm sorry, but Jesus did not cease to exist. He was alive and well those three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. He preached to the spirits in prison, got the keys of hell and death, preached the gospel to those in Abraham's bosom, and set the captives free.

Jonah 2:
Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

that was a quote, did you missed the word abstract?

https://www.gotquestions.org/sign-of-Jonah.html

 

[TheLearner]

Nothing more to say

 

[John146]

that was a quote, did you missed the word abstract?

https://www.gotquestions.org/sign-of-Jonah.html

Theology from got questions? No thanks.

 

[John146]

I am not sure you can read or being sarcastic? I would expect an intelligent answer from you. The point of the text I quoted is in fact Jesus was in the paradise side of the grave announcing the gospel to the righteous. You post created the funniest straw man I ever witnessed.

Agree, Jesus went to paradise after he went to hell. He deposited the sins (see OT example), preached to the spirits, got the keys, and walked across the great gulf to Abraham’s bosom, aka paradise.

 

[TheLearner]

Why would Jesus be on the wrong side of the grave? We know from Luke 16 that those on the wrong side can hear.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Nice try using the light example to explain scripture. Let’s just stick with what scripture actually says.

Acts 2:
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Ephesians 4:
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

I thought I WAS sticking to Scripture by saying the Soul comes into existence and exists ONLY as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Lifel, according to Genesis 2:7 KJV and there's simply nothing we can do to undo that. C'mon, man, surely that light analogy is perfect to illustrate that the Soul can't continue to exist when the Body and Breath are disjoined because the Soul is the RESULT of this union.

A "Soul" is simply not a transparent ghost that looks, sounds, smells, thinks like us - the "Soul" is the WHOLE flesh and bone, breathing and thinking person.

"His Soul was not left in hell" simply means "Jesus was not left to remain dead in the grave".

The only way to make the word "Soul" to mean "a poltergeist transparent version of us that flies off looking, sounding, smelling, thinking as we do" is to totally ignore the plain, unavoidable conclusion of Genesis 2:7 KJV.

 

[Phoneman-777]

You prefer the KJV until it doesn’t fit your narrative? You changed hell to hades and then defined hades to fit your narrative. That’s not good Bible study. Leave the words alone as they stand.

To be clear, I prefer the TEXTUS RECEPTUS, compiled from the Byzantian aka Traditonal MSS Family, which origins are NOT in Rome or Alexandria like the Western MSS and Alexandrian MSS respectively - these originated in Palestine, and were carried West when the Muslims got busy doing their thing in the East. These worshippers of Allah/Satan had no idea they were helping to set the stage for the Protestant Reformation when Erasmus and company got busy working with these MSS.

The TEXTUS RECEPTUS reads "hades", which clearly is NOT the "fiery, burning, blazing" hell of "gehenna", but simply "the place of the dead" or "grave", both of which are where the dead are.

 

[justbyfaith]

Why would Jesus be on the wrong side of the grave? We know from Luke 16 that those on the wrong side can hear.

Only if it wasn't finished when He said, "It is finished!"

 

[Duckybill]

Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell!

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[John146]

To be clear, I prefer the TEXTUS RECEPTUS, compiled from the Byzantian aka Traditonal MSS Family, which origins are NOT in Rome or Alexandria like the Western MSS and Alexandrian MSS respectively - these originated in Palestine, and were carried West when the Muslims got busy doing their thing in the East. These worshippers of Allah/Satan had no idea they were helping to set the stage for the Protestant Reformation when Erasmus and company got busy working with these MSS.

The TEXTUS RECEPTUS reads "hades", which clearly is NOT the "fiery, burning, blazing" hell of "gehenna", but simply "the place of the dead" or "grave", both of which are where the dead are.

You’ll do well to stick with the preserved holy words of God in English as given in the King James Bible. Hell is the English word. Hell is correct. Hell is a real place. Hell is hot. Hell is a place of torment. Hell is located in the heart of the earth, not six feet under.

 

[TheLearner]

To be clear, I prefer the TEXTUS RECEPTUS, compiled from the Byzantian aka Traditonal MSS Family, which origins are NOT in Rome or Alexandria like the Western MSS and Alexandrian MSS respectively - these originated in Palestine, and were carried West when the Muslims got busy doing their thing in the East. These worshippers of Allah/Satan had no idea they were helping to set the stage for the Protestant Reformation when Erasmus and company got busy working with these MSS.

The TEXTUS RECEPTUS reads "hades", which clearly is NOT the "fiery, burning, blazing" hell of "gehenna", but simply "the place of the dead" or "grave", both of which are where the dead are.

"Erasmus of Rotterdam or Erasmus;[note 1] 28 October 1466 – 12 July 1536) was a Dutch philosopher and Catholic theologian who is considered one of the greatest scholars of the northern Renaissance.
As a Catholic priest, he was an important figure in classical scholarship who wrote in a pure Latin style. Among humanists he enjoyed the sobriquet "Prince of the Humanists", and has been called "the crowning glory of the Christian humanists"" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus

 

[TheLearner]

read to here very tired