Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!
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"The dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING" says Solomon. However, these dead in this parable seem to know a boatload of stuff.
Is Solomon or Jesus lying? NEITHER. Because when we accept the passage what it is - A PARABLE - we then can abandon the asinine insistence that this is a literal account of dead men, and seek to find the interpretation.
Because humans are incapable of discerning a dead carcass doesn't think or feel emotions, Solomon had to tell us, right? C'mon, humans are dumb, but not that dumb. Solomon plainly says "the dead", but you are adding "dead body" to the mix, which we are warned not to do.
So, Jotham's use of proper names of vegetation - Fig, Olive, Bramble - means his story about talking trees is literal, right? There's a GOOD REASON Jesus used the proper name "Lazarus" in His parable, and it is this: When the real "Lazarus" was raised from the dead, instead of the Jews repenting, they continued in unbelief and went away to plot the deaths of both Jesus and Lazarus, thereby proving Abraham's words in the parable "they will not believe, though one rose from the dead". THAT IS WHY THE PROPER NAME "LAZARUS" WAS USED.
Again, you are basing your hermeneutics on subjectivity. There is no Biblically established criteria which demands proper names in passages denote literalism, else Jotham's account proves trees can walk, talk, and make horrible life choices.
Where is paradise called "Abraham's bosom"? The Bible plainly says Paradise is UP, not DOWN. Need the texts? I got em.
"Tree" is to "man" as "Olive/Fig" is to "Lazarus".
By your logic, trees can walk, talk, and make horrible life choices.
The weight of evidence is on my side, not yours. The Rich Man/Lazarus, was right there in the midst of other parables/allegories and Jesus was predicted to come and speak in parables "and without a parable spake He not unto them". You are claiming otherwise and doing so introduces a host of contradictions with Scripture which does not happen when we allow the parable of the Rich Man/Lazarus to be the parable it is.
Is Solomon or Jesus lying? NEITHER. Because when we accept the passage what it is - A PARABLE - we then can abandon the asinine insistence that this is a literal account of dead men, and seek to find the interpretation.
Because humans are incapable of discerning a dead carcass doesn't think or feel emotions, Solomon had to tell us, right? C'mon, humans are dumb, but not that dumb. Solomon plainly says "the dead", but you are adding "dead body" to the mix, which we are warned not to do.
So, Jotham's use of proper names of vegetation - Fig, Olive, Bramble - means his story about talking trees is literal, right? There's a GOOD REASON Jesus used the proper name "Lazarus" in His parable, and it is this: When the real "Lazarus" was raised from the dead, instead of the Jews repenting, they continued in unbelief and went away to plot the deaths of both Jesus and Lazarus, thereby proving Abraham's words in the parable "they will not believe, though one rose from the dead". THAT IS WHY THE PROPER NAME "LAZARUS" WAS USED.
Again, you are basing your hermeneutics on subjectivity. There is no Biblically established criteria which demands proper names in passages denote literalism, else Jotham's account proves trees can walk, talk, and make horrible life choices.
Where is paradise called "Abraham's bosom"? The Bible plainly says Paradise is UP, not DOWN. Need the texts? I got em.
"Tree" is to "man" as "Olive/Fig" is to "Lazarus".
By your logic, trees can walk, talk, and make horrible life choices.
The weight of evidence is on my side, not yours. The Rich Man/Lazarus, was right there in the midst of other parables/allegories and Jesus was predicted to come and speak in parables "and without a parable spake He not unto them". You are claiming otherwise and doing so introduces a host of contradictions with Scripture which does not happen when we allow the parable of the Rich Man/Lazarus to be the parable it is.
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How about you just watch the video before asking questions?
Alas, just as it is the case with cowardly evolutionists who through fear of cognitive dissonance immerse themselves wholly in their theories and insulate themselves from even 5 minutes of objective criticism, so the "immortal soul/eternal torment" crowd circles the theological wagons around their ideas in order to keep out anything that might challenge them.
Please, for the love of God, pluck up some courage and watch this short video so that at least you can be found in compliance with Paul's words to "despise not prophesyings, prove all things".
Alas, just as it is the case with cowardly evolutionists who through fear of cognitive dissonance immerse themselves wholly in their theories and insulate themselves from even 5 minutes of objective criticism, so the "immortal soul/eternal torment" crowd circles the theological wagons around their ideas in order to keep out anything that might challenge them.
Please, for the love of God, pluck up some courage and watch this short video so that at least you can be found in compliance with Paul's words to "despise not prophesyings, prove all things".
Should we believe you or Jesus?
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
I understand those who are ignorant of the proper meaning and use of words often draw wrong conclusions, and is why they are seduced by the demonic doctrine of "eternal torment".
Honest scholars who believe as you do will admit "forever" in the Greek usage of the word doesn't always mean "without end" --- and the "eternal/everlasting fire" with which Sodom and Gomorrah was burned is no longer burning, seeing that both cities are under the Dead Sea.
Honest scholars who believe as you do will admit "forever" in the Greek usage of the word doesn't always mean "without end" --- and the "eternal/everlasting fire" with which Sodom and Gomorrah was burned is no longer burning, seeing that both cities are under the Dead Sea.
Hi, I'm sure you'd really enjoy this presentation, but it is taken from the complete version called "When and Where is Hell?". It is a follow up presentation to "After Death, Then What?" which goes into detail about the "state of the dead" and how there are several misapplication of verses which lead to popular yet erroneous ideas.
They're worth checking out, if only to gain understanding of alternative views. The playlist is on my Youtube channel found on this thread link.
They're worth checking out, if only to gain understanding of alternative views. The playlist is on my Youtube channel found on this thread link.
Yes Jesus as Michael can be interpreted without much theological disturbance. But the compromise of the logical principle has far reaching effects on more foundational issues. Let the double edged sword fall where it may. This is the way of Truth.
The Bride is married in Revelation 19, Following it was the Crowning of Jesus as as King. Subsequently, defeat of the beast and false prophet.
The first resurrection occurs at the Bride, before the return to the Earth to defeat the beast and false prophet. The trumpets are not triggering resurrection. Once again Jesus is King and the Lord of the Host. The shouts, voices and trumpets are from the Host of Heaven - His army.
I have to verify this but horns and trumpets are only possessed by servants of God (never by God) as a symbol of Godly Might and Anointment. Once again Jesus as King endows others to proclaim his Sovereignty. In this case the Host.
The Bride is married in Revelation 19, Following it was the Crowning of Jesus as as King. Subsequently, defeat of the beast and false prophet.
The first resurrection occurs at the Bride, before the return to the Earth to defeat the beast and false prophet. The trumpets are not triggering resurrection. Once again Jesus is King and the Lord of the Host. The shouts, voices and trumpets are from the Host of Heaven - His army.
I have to verify this but horns and trumpets are only possessed by servants of God (never by God) as a symbol of Godly Might and Anointment. Once again Jesus as King endows others to proclaim his Sovereignty. In this case the Host.
Zechariah 9:14 KJV shows that the Lord will blow the last trumpet in Zechariah's prophecy of the 2nd Advent.
And there is where, in answer to such questions as, 'why does God kill...,' there is trust in His judgment that it must be necessary for our good. One can at least imagine the good, for the ultimate kingdom realized, in the destruction of the wicked but there is not even one reason anyone can offer one good reason that He would make them suffer forever and ever. Of course, people will try to answer with fallacious assertions which is inconsistent with God's character of sound logical reasoning.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -A.Einstein
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination." -A.Einstein
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." -A.Einstein
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination." -A.Einstein
God is a God of love and mercy.
He is also a God of wrath. He is a God of many attributes and it would pay to be aware of and consider them all.
He is a God of judgment and justice. He is God and his ways are much higher than our ways.
He doesn't play games. So we each better know Him for ourselves and make sure when we witness Him to others that we are not just throwing our own fleshly opinions out there.
I know many don't want to take it, but it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God. So it is wise to know Him fully and completely and pay honor and respect to Him and all of his attributes. Who are we to question God in any of His holy ways?
He is also a God of wrath. He is a God of many attributes and it would pay to be aware of and consider them all.
He is a God of judgment and justice. He is God and his ways are much higher than our ways.
He doesn't play games. So we each better know Him for ourselves and make sure when we witness Him to others that we are not just throwing our own fleshly opinions out there.
I know many don't want to take it, but it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God. So it is wise to know Him fully and completely and pay honor and respect to Him and all of his attributes. Who are we to question God in any of His holy ways?
Revelation 14:10-11 “He also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
God’s wrath is just as real as His mercy, love, and forgiveness.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2015/07/27/top-7-bible-verses-about-gods-wrath/
God’s wrath is just as real as His mercy, love, and forgiveness.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2015/07/27/top-7-bible-verses-about-gods-wrath/
FreeGrace2 said:
You have been shown clear evidence FOR eternal torment, but you have chosen to reject it. And there is NO body of evidence against it. One could say you have deceived yourself. The Bible is clear. Rev 20 is clear; all of it.{/QUOTE]
That is your only defense, and it isn't provable. It's just your deceived opinion. When John INCLUDED the aspect of TIME by saying "day and night" followed up with forever and ever, he was clearly teaching that he WAS speaking literally.
I DON'T "get to decide". John made it very clear about the lake of fire being literally FOREVER when he INCLUDED TIME.
The words "day and night" refer to the passage of time, whether you want to agree of not. Then he added "forever and ever" right after the passage of time. So it is LITERAL because of what John said. The other verses you cited did NOT include any specific passage of time, so ARE NOT RELEVANT OR MATERIAL to what John wrote in Rev 20.
Me, shy?? lol. I don't need any other verse to support what I believe. John's words are ENOUGH to understand that he WAS speaking about the passage of time; throughout eternity.
I was raised in the Christian home, and was Presbyterian, then Baptist, and then independent. So please don't lay that "denomination" stuff on me. I haven't attended a denominational church for probably 25 years.
I have never doubted your faith, so you don't have to defend it, as if I have. btw, EVERY believer has been chosen/elected by God to serve Him. Eph 1:4 says so plainly.
You have been shown clear evidence FOR eternal torment, but you have chosen to reject it. And there is NO body of evidence against it. One could say you have deceived yourself. The Bible is clear. Rev 20 is clear; all of it.{/QUOTE]
That is your only defense, and it isn't provable. It's just your deceived opinion. When John INCLUDED the aspect of TIME by saying "day and night" followed up with forever and ever, he was clearly teaching that he WAS speaking literally.
I DON'T "get to decide". John made it very clear about the lake of fire being literally FOREVER when he INCLUDED TIME.
The words "day and night" refer to the passage of time, whether you want to agree of not. Then he added "forever and ever" right after the passage of time. So it is LITERAL because of what John said. The other verses you cited did NOT include any specific passage of time, so ARE NOT RELEVANT OR MATERIAL to what John wrote in Rev 20.
Me, shy?? lol. I don't need any other verse to support what I believe. John's words are ENOUGH to understand that he WAS speaking about the passage of time; throughout eternity.
I was raised in the Christian home, and was Presbyterian, then Baptist, and then independent. So please don't lay that "denomination" stuff on me. I haven't attended a denominational church for probably 25 years.
I have never doubted your faith, so you don't have to defend it, as if I have. btw, EVERY believer has been chosen/elected by God to serve Him. Eph 1:4 says so plainly.
FreeGrace2 said:
I guess most annihilationists don't realize that their view of the unsaved parallels that of atheists who deny any afterlife at all.
The only difference is annihilationists have to admit some amount of suffering before the soul is annihilated. That wouldn't hardly impress an atheist.
I GUARANTEE on the Word of God that I am NOT calling God an atheist. But your view is still tantamount to what the atheists believe.
yes, people can and do die. I just guess you won't accept that in the Bible "souls" refer to people, not the immaterial separated from the material.
The Bible clearly shows dead believers IN heaven and shouting.
Rev 6-
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Clear as day! But you ignore or dismiss it as irrelevant.
Jesus gave an account of the after life. And you dismiss it as a parable, even with a WRONG message.
Rev 20:10 speaks of the passage of time, followed by "forever and ever".
This means the passage of time that is forever and ever means NO ENDING.
But you are satisfied with your views, even though they do not line up with these facts.
I guess most annihilationists don't realize that their view of the unsaved parallels that of atheists who deny any afterlife at all.
The only difference is annihilationists have to admit some amount of suffering before the soul is annihilated. That wouldn't hardly impress an atheist.
I GUARANTEE on the Word of God that I am NOT calling God an atheist. But your view is still tantamount to what the atheists believe.
yes, people can and do die. I just guess you won't accept that in the Bible "souls" refer to people, not the immaterial separated from the material.
The Bible clearly shows dead believers IN heaven and shouting.
Rev 6-
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Clear as day! But you ignore or dismiss it as irrelevant.
Jesus gave an account of the after life. And you dismiss it as a parable, even with a WRONG message.
Rev 20:10 speaks of the passage of time, followed by "forever and ever".
This means the passage of time that is forever and ever means NO ENDING.
But you are satisfied with your views, even though they do not line up with these facts.
FreeGrace2 said:
Oh, this is just pitiful. What is most obvious is that he was in bad health and couldn't work or crippled and couldn't work.
You are desperate for any excuse.
I didn't say he was. I gave several possibilities of WHY he was "put down in front of the gate of the rich man".
I think you need some help with reading. I NEVER said he was.
Whatever. Jesus said he was "put down".
I don't assume anything. Someone put him there. In the Bible, those who begged were seen to be unable to work.
Why don't you go ask him?
Why are you so intent on finding excuses to continue your opinons?
Oh, this is just pitiful. What is most obvious is that he was in bad health and couldn't work or crippled and couldn't work.
You are desperate for any excuse.
I didn't say he was. I gave several possibilities of WHY he was "put down in front of the gate of the rich man".
I think you need some help with reading. I NEVER said he was.
Whatever. Jesus said he was "put down".
I don't assume anything. Someone put him there. In the Bible, those who begged were seen to be unable to work.
Why don't you go ask him?
Why are you so intent on finding excuses to continue your opinons?
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