Irresistible Grace ?

[awelight]

The best dictionary on biblical words is the Bible itself. God’s word will define itself. You need a KJV.

This point you are trying to make still misses the point. If we don't agree on what a word means, then we have no common base on which to exchange ideas. I except the meaning as the majority of Theologians do.

By the way, the definition I gave, started out with the term "In Theology" Theology itself means = The word study of God, in the Greek.

As to the King James of 1611, it is a good translation, however translations are not "inspired", only the original autographs were "inspired" by God. Because of this I prefer to work from the Greek text, in order to receive the full meaning of the words. Since the original autographs were written in the Koine Greek. The "Textus Receptus" was used by the King James translators but I prefer the "Nestle Text" which is based on older transcripts.

 

[John146]

This point you are trying to make still misses the point. If we don't agree on what a word means, then we have no common base on which to exchange ideas. I except the meaning as the majority of Theologians do.

By the way, the definition I gave, started out with the term "In Theology" Theology itself means = The word study of God, in the Greek.

As to the King James of 1611, it is a good translation, however translations are not "inspired", only the original autographs were "inspired" by God. Because of this I prefer to work from the Greek text, in order to receive the full meaning of the words. Since the original autographs were written in the Koine Greek. The "Textus Receptus" was used by the King James translators but I prefer the "Nestle Text" which is based on older transcripts.

Predestined unto the adoption....how does scripture define the adoption?

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The adoption is something we are waiting for. It’s future. It’s not salvation. We’re already saved. It’s the destination of those in Christ. God has to know you first as one of His. When you believe the gospel and become one of His, He predestinates your future. It’s predetermined for you to be conformed to the image of Jesus. That’s the future adoption.

 

[49]

Our future was predestinated; before we were formed in the womb, He knew us.

 

[John146]

Our future was predestinated; before we were formed in the womb, He knew us.

Psalm 139 does not say this.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

 

[49]

Psalm 139 does not say this.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Correct. Jeremiah 1:5 says this:

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew[a] you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

God knows all whom He formed, you reckon?

 

[John146]

Correct. Jeremiah 1:5 says this:

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew[a] you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

God knows all whom He formed, you reckon?

Before I formed you...Jeremiah was but substance in the womb and God knew him and set him apart. Why would we take a truth specifically about Jeremiah and apply it to us? Are you a Jeremiah 29:11 person? God appointed Jeremiah to be a prophet.

Does God know all people in the womb? Are there some people He does not know in the womb?

Galatians 4:
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

After that ye are known of God....there is a time when God knows you as one of His. But now...after that ye are known of God...

 

[49]

Before I formed you...Jeremiah was but substance in the womb and God knew him and set him apart. Why would we take a truth specifically about Jeremiah and apply it to us? Are you a Jeremiah 29:11 person? God appointed Jeremiah to be a prophet.

Does God know all people in the womb? Are there some people He does not know in the womb?

Galatians 4:
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?


How foolish of me to come in to these forums, much less this site anymore. Once upon a time, people here discussed...
Any more, it's with disgust...

God bless.

 

[Blade]

I like "Will draw all ment unto me" does not mean the totality of the human race but "all" refers to all men generally in the universal sense. As Jesus explained to Nicodemus those who looked to the serpent on the pole were granted life so Jesus cross was to be the focus of mans attention. As many as look to Him receive eternal life. Will draw is used 6 times in the NT five of which are in John.

Man is free he may look and live. If he refuses to look to the Cross he remains in darkness and death

 

[crossnote]

The most quoted verse in Calvinsim is without question John 6.44 .
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Such a major part of reformed theology hangs on this one verse .

But : 1) We hear no mention of ' drawing' in the epistles .Nothing about a necessary drawing of the Father ,in the way the reformers use John 6.44 .

And 2) The verse nor the surrounding verses say nothing about those that drawn, IF they all do believe when they come . it simply says they CAN come if they are drawn .

3) This is before the cross . Why is this used for the church age? Jesus had not died for the sins of the world yet , no resurection , no Acts 2 and no giving of the Holy Spirit.

4) John 12 And I,if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW all men unto me.

5) There are no verses after the cross that say the Father draws anyone , nor the Holy Spirit .

The context of John 6:44 was hostility from the uppity-ups. Jesus was just giving them a bit of humble pie reminding them that they couldn't come to Jesus even if they wanted to, but would be fully dependent on God's mercy, who would have all men come to saving faith. I don't think it has much to do with pre or post Calvary.

 

[throughfaith]

The context of John 6:44 was hostility from the uppity-ups. Jesus was just giving them a bit of humble pie reminding them that they couldn't come to Jesus even if they wanted to, but would be fully dependent on God's mercy, who would have all men come to saving faith. I don't think it has much to do with pre or post Calvary.

The next verse explains .
45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
These Jews say they were followers of the Father but by there understanding prove they were not 'drawn ' by the father ,because they did not recognise the Son . Recognising the Son should have been the case if you have 'heard ' and hath learned of the Father ( drawn ) . The sheep ( Israel ) knew the voice ( heard the Father and learned of Him ) and recognised Jesus words because of recognising the Father s words . Jesus and the Father should be recognised by ISRAEL but of course only if the Jews were true to the Fathers word and were hearing and learning of the Father . This is shown by the whole context of these Jews not understanding Jesus .

 

[throughfaith]

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

OOPS. @throughfaith maybe the spirit speaking through you was mistaken

There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

 

[throughfaith]

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:

John146 answered you well .

 

[awelight]

Sadly, I agree with you 49 but it is the times in which we live.

2Ti_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;

 

[awelight]

There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

Why don't you get off of this nonsense.

2Th 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: where unto he called you through our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is one of your example verses, is it not?

This verse clearly teaches that first, one is chosen from the beginning. Is set apart unto the Spirit and to belief of the truth. Where then you were called through ( the greek word dia , means: ("through or by means of", here it is being used in the ablative of means. ) the Gospel. It is the Gospel, which leads one to an understanding of ones calling.

So you are not called to or for the Gospel, you were called through the Gospel.

Eph 4:11-12 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

This verse is talking about God giving to individuals certain gifts, for the ministry. What in these verses, have to do with calling?

A total misuse of Scripture.

 

[awelight]

John146 answered you well .

He answered nothing.

 

[49]

Sadly, I agree with you 49 but it is the times in which we live.

2Ti_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;

You described it well....sadly.

And the verse quoted applies to this day and age more than ever!! Churches are either empty because the itching ears did not get tickled, or they are full because they are getting scratched. Sad!!!!!

 

[throughfaith]

Why don't you get off of this nonsense.

2Th 2:13-14 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: where unto he called you through our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is one of your example verses, is it not?

This verse clearly teaches that first, one is chosen from the beginning. Is set apart unto the Spirit and to belief of the truth. Where then you were called through ( the greek word dia , means: ("through or by means of", here it is being used in the ablative of means. ) the Gospel. It is the Gospel, which leads one to an understanding of ones calling.

So you are not called to or for the Gospel, you were called through the Gospel.

Eph 4:11-12 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:

This verse is talking about God giving to individuals certain gifts, for the ministry. What in these verses, have to do with calling?

A total misuse of Scripture.

Yes 13¶But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
The beginning when? does not say does it .
Chosen you to salvation THROUGH!!! limbo dancing and belief of the truth ?
Through sanctification and believing you can fly ?
Or is Paul reassuring these believers, that in spite of their fears they have missed the return of Jesus and have been thrust into the Tribulation with the revealing of the anti christ. That 'from the beginning they have not been chosen to go through this as God has chosen that belivers will not be destined for wrath but ' through sanctification and belief of the truth will be how they will be saved .

 

[awelight]

You described it well....sadly.

And the verse quoted applies to this day and age more than ever!! Churches are either empty because the itching ears did not get tickled, or they are full because they are getting scratched. Sad!!!!!

So true, but God's will is being accomplished. Like our Lord said:

John_15:18 If the world is hating you, ye know that it hath hated me, before it hated you.

 

[awelight]

Yes 13¶But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
The beginning when? does not say does it .

No it doesn't, but it does say "God chose you to salvation". Does it not? So why not the beginning of time, this harmonizes with other Scriptures.

Chosen you to salvation THROUGH!!! limbo dancing and belief of the truth ?
Disingenious reply.

Through sanctification and believing you can fly ?
Continued nonsense.

Or is Paul reassuring these believers, that in spite of their fears they have missed the return of Jesus and have been thrust into the Tribulation with the revealing of the anti christ. That 'from the beginning they have not been chosen to go through this as God has chosen that belivers will not be destined for wrath but ' through sanctification and belief of the truth will be how they will be saved .

Paul's purpose in reassuring these, changes nothing about what the verse says.

 

[throughfaith]

Paul's purpose in reassuring these, changes nothing about what the verse says.

Nope your attaching the buzz words beginning to mean ' BEFORE the foundation of the world ' .and CHOSEN to mean the same thing . But the verse says BEGINNING and chosen you to salvation THROUGH !!!! ( the vehicle ) sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: As opposed to Enduring the wrath of God and missing the return of Christ. Just the same as God has chosen all those in the Church age the way of salvation is through sanctification and Believing the truth . From the beginning this has been the plan . From the beginning when Paul first shared the Gospel with them ,this has been the way . " So don't fear ,you are on course " . 2 thes 2.5
The context. Just a few verses before ( always read the context.
1¶Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5¶Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?