Is cessation an observation or theology?

[TruthDefender]

Don't you think the Commission was also meant to be carried out by the subsequent generations of believers who came after the Apostles? I mean the Apostles never completed this worldwide mission in their lifetimes.

Ik that many people believe this, and are taught this. But I also know that this is not possible.

Do you believe that every Christian is commanded to go out and preach throughout the world?? Think carefully! How is this even possible? Especially when it tells us that not all of us are teachers, or even should teach; and women are NOT to preach and usurp authority over men, but to keep silent during worship.

 

[Anchorite]

Ik that many people believe this, and are taught this. But I also know that this is not possible.

Do you believe that every Christian is commanded to go out and preach throughout the world?? Think carefully! How is this even possible? Especially when it tells us that not all of us are teachers, or even should teach; and women are NOT to preach and usurp authority over men, but to keep silent during worship.

We are all responsible to be a witness.

We can all spread the gospel message in our town or as missionaries to other lands.


Matthew 5:16

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” – Matthew 28:19

 

[Kroogz]

Perhaps you should find out why miracles are rare these days.

I will never deny miraculous works.........I do know why they are rare. Believers think that they are gifted with miraculous works.


Again, cancer wards and every hospital would be cleared of sick and dying patients if believers had this gift.


Even if we had this gift, we would "heal" someone who God wants/needs to go through suffering and pain to seek and find Him.

The proverbial "brick wall" that most of us need to find Christ, would miraculously disappear if we were gifted with healing and miracles.

 

[TruthDefender]

We are all responsible to be a witness.

I never witnessed Jesus, nor did anyone in our age. This is not the proper term.

We can all spread the gospel message in our town or as missionaries to other lands.

Yes, we can all be good examples.

Matthew 5:16

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Yes, by being a good example.

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” – Matthew 28:19

This one is taken out of context, like I stated earlier. He was talking to the 12 apostles.

 

[lrs68]

I didn't ask where the contradiction was, you had already stated in was in my last sentence, I asked how is it contradictory?

Generally it was only Prophets, High Priests, and Kings that were covered in Oil (Holy Spirit) which makes your first part of the last sentence correct. But ever since the Day of Pentecost and the Upper Room experience the Holy Spirit has been on earth full time.

Think about this..
During the period of Hebrew peoples and Jewish people of the Bible the Roles of the body of God were designated through Tribes and Prophets.

But now that Gentiles are part of the Body the Holy Spirit distributes Gifts so saved people full of the Holy Spirit understand their Roles.

It's basically the same thing but led by God differently.

 

[Anchorite]

I never witnessed Jesus, nor did anyone in our age. This is not the proper term.


Yes, we can all be good examples.


Yes, by being a good example.


This one is taken out of context, like I stated earlier. He was talking to the 12 apostles.

Do not be afraid to not only be an example, but also to speak the Word of God to win people to Christ.

Witnessing is a standard evangelical term meaning to share your testimony, to tell others how God has rescued you, to quote or read scripture verses that pertain to salvation.

You actually are a witness of what God has done in your life and how Christ has changed you. And you see Jesus mentally by studying the gospels.

You do not have to be a pastor or have the gift ministry of evangelist to share your faith with people.

Hebrews 2:9

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Luke 9:26

For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

 

[Anchorite]

Again, cancer wards and every hospital would be cleared of sick and dying patients if believers had this gift.


Even if we had this gift, we would "heal" someone who God wants/needs to go through suffering and pain to seek and find Him.

The proverbial "brick wall" that most of us need to find Christ, would miraculously disappear if we were gifted with healing and miracles.

You do not understand how healing works. Not every patient in a cancer ward has faith to be healed.

Even Jesus did not go to all the leper colonies to heal them all. Lepers came to Jesus because they had faith that He could heal them.

God never wants people to be sick and go through suffering and pain in order to seek and find Him.

Jesus healed all the people who came to Him, and He never said, “I cannot heal you because God is using your illness to bring you closer to Him.”

Disease and disability generally turns people away from God, not toward Him.

 

[Kroogz]

You do not understand how healing works.

Yes, I do.

I have High blood pressure......Heal me.

 

[Anchorite]

Yes, I do.

I have High blood pressure......Heal me.

Your negativity toward healing must be abandoned before healing can happen.

 

[Kroogz]

You do not understand how healing works. Not every patient in a cancer ward has faith to be healed.

Even Jesus did not go to all the leper colonies to heal them all. Lepers came to Jesus because they had faith that He could heal them.

God never wants people to be sick and go through suffering and pain in order to seek and find Him.

Jesus healed all the people who came to Him, and He never said, “I cannot heal you because God is using your illness to bring you closer to Him.”

Disease and disability generally turns people away from God, not toward Him.

Grow up. Suffering for blessing is a top bragging right.....I don't expect you to grasp a miniscule piece of this truth.

 

[Kroogz]

Your negativity toward healing must be abandoned before healing can happen.

Negativity gone........Heal me.

 

[EddieM]

You probably find "even less" in Scripture about manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today because the Bible was completed about 2,000 years ago.

While it is the responsibility of the claimant to support their claim, "proof" is a ridiculous standard because it depends on the recipient of evidence. Those who have already convinced themselves (usually by bad arguments) that manifestations of the Spirit don't occur today are unlikely to be convinced by any evidence.

I know what I have seen and experienced. I know it is consistent with things described in Scripture. I don't care who else believes me.

The write of Hebrews presents his case for the cessation of supernatural gifts. Here it is in 2:3, 4

3 how shall we escape if we (second generation believers) ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord (this a reference to the early first century), was attested to us (second generation Christians) by those who heard him (first generation Christians).
4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

The writer is saying here that the first generation of people were around to hear Christ presenting his gospel. And the signs, wonders, and various miracles were confirmed (not performed) to the second generation believers by those who heard him (first century believers).

The first generation of believers had these gifts but the second generation only saw the signs being performed by the first generation of believers. Why didn't the second generation perform signs and miracles? They ceased by the end of the first generation believers who died off.

Also, notice that this passage relies on what the scriptures say, not experience. And, as a Dispensationalist, the first generation is known as the Apostolic Age, where the signs of the apostles slowly ceased due to the Apostles dying off. During this first generation, there were apostles there to confirm the truth of issues that believers needed guidance on. Once they all died, the Apostolic Age ended/ceased and the signs of an Apostle were no longer needed.

 

[sawdust]

Generally it was only Prophets, High Priests, and Kings that were covered in Oil (Holy Spirit) which makes your first part of the last sentence correct. But ever since the Day of Pentecost and the Upper Room experience the Holy Spirit has been on earth full time.

Think about this..
During the period of Hebrew peoples and Jewish people of the Bible the Roles of the body of God were designated through Tribes and Prophets.

But now that Gentiles are part of the Body the Holy Spirit distributes Gifts so saved people full of the Holy Spirit understand their Roles.

It's basically the same thing but led by God differently.

I don't see any contradiction. I said everyone who believes receives a gift now, so how is that different from what you said?

 

[Mem]

Jesus healed all the people who came to Him, and He never said, “I cannot heal you because God is using your illness to bring you closer to Him.”

If an illness brings anyone to Christ, you'd think that at least one of the first topics of conversation with Him would be about that illness bringing them to Him. But I think it's the generally accepted assumption that Paul's thorn was an illness that God 'wouldn't take away (which they interpret as "wouldn't heal") that causes all the stumbling. Imagine if Jesus had told the woman that came to him after suffering 12 years, "Yep, that's exactly what was intended to bring you to Me, now carry it forward for a reminder of Me."

 

[TrustandObey]

Your negativity toward healing must be abandoned before healing can happen.

Must? Why?

What does "negativity toward healing" have to do with the validity of modern healings?

Did not the Pharisees, Sadducees and Naaman not see the healing miracles?

Were those miracles not valid?

 

[Mem]

Jesus healed all the people who came to Him, and He never said, “I cannot heal you because God is using your illness to bring you closer to Him.”

If an illness brings anyone to Christ, you'd think that at least one of the first topics of conversation with Him would be about that illness bringing them to Him. But I think it's the generally accepted assumption that Paul's thorn was an illness that God 'wouldn't take away (which they interpret as "wouldn't heal") that causes all the stumbling. Imagine if Jesus had told the woman that came to him after suffering 12 years, "Yep, that's exactly what was intended to bring you to Me, now carry it forward for a reminder of Me."

Acts 1:8
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

Luke 15:10
10 “In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Luke 15:7
7 “I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Let's back up a bit to the event that blazed the trail for Pentecost

Matt 27:50-51
When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

Luke 23: 45-46
The sun was darkened [at noon] and the veil of the temple was torn down the middle.
Then Jesus called out in a loud voice, “Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit.” And when He had said this, He breathed His last.

Mark 15: 37-38
But Jesus let out a loud cry and breathed His last. And the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

John 19: 28-30
After this, knowing that everything had now been accomplished...He said, “It is finished.” And bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit.

And from the Psalm of the Cross, Psalm 22:24

For He has not despised or detested
the torment of the afflicted.
He has not hidden His face from him,
but has attended to his cry for help.

The veil was torn so that anyone could enter into God's Presence, not just the apostles, and finishing the Bible wasn't the primary reason as the Holy Spirit was poured out on all people. Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17 It was written so that all who read it might believe what is written.

 

[Anchorite]

If an illness brings anyone to Christ, you'd think that at least one of the first topics of conversation with Him would be about that illness bringing them to Him. But I think it's the generally accepted assumption that Paul's thorn was an illness that God 'wouldn't take away (which they interpret as "wouldn't heal") that causes all the stumbling. Imagine if Jesus had told the woman that came to him after suffering 12 years, "Yep, that's exactly what was intended to bring you to Me, now carry it forward for a reminder of Me."

Paul defined his thorn in the flesh. It was not sickness.

It was infirmities, reproaches, needs, persecutions, and distresses.

2 Corinthians 12

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.

8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.

9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

The Bible interprets itself. Thorns in the flesh or side are a figure of speech mentioned in the Old Testament.

Numbers 33:55, Judges 2:3, and Joshua 23:13, state that certain hostile, persecuting nations would act toward Israel as "barbs in your eyes and thorns in your sides".

 

[TrustandObey]

I didn't say whether I thought Mahesh Chavda's claims were true or not, but I did ask if you had researched his claims. He had a picture of a death certificate of someone in one of the meetings. I asked if you had researched the claims. Have you, or do you just dismiss them.

Hold on.

Did you not research this claim before you presented it???

Why would Lamar need to do research on a claim that you have presented but not researched?

My post was straightforward.

No they are not and yes you are rather dishonest.

 

[Kroogz]

If an illness brings anyone to Christ, you'd think that at least one of the first topics of conversation with Him would be about that illness bringing them to Him. But I think it's the generally accepted assumption that Paul's thorn was an illness that God 'wouldn't take away (which they interpret as "wouldn't heal") that causes all the stumbling. Imagine if Jesus had told the woman that came to him after suffering 12 years, "Yep, that's exactly what was intended to bring you to Me, now carry it forward for a reminder of Me."

Let's back up a bit to the event that blazed the trail for Pentecost

Matt 27:50-51
When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

Luke 23: 45-46
The sun was darkened [at noon] and the veil of the temple was torn down the middle.
Then Jesus called out in a loud voice, “Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit.” And when He had said this, He breathed His last.

Mark 15: 37-38
But Jesus let out a loud cry and breathed His last. And the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom.

John 19: 28-30
After this, knowing that everything had now been accomplished...He said, “It is finished.” And bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit.

And from the Psalm of the Cross, Psalm 22:24

For He has not despised or detested
the torment of the afflicted.
He has not hidden His face from him,
but has attended to his cry for help.

The veil was torn so that anyone could enter into God's Presence, not just the apostles, and finishing the Bible wasn't the primary reason as the Holy Spirit was poured out on all people. Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17 It was written so that all who read it might believe what is written.

Our "greater works" is bringing the Gospel to ALL the world.

A sinner saved is the GREAT works.

We ALL have the message to the WORLD..........Greater works.

 

[Anchorite]

Must? Why?

What does "negativity toward healing" have to do with the validity of modern healings?

Did not the Pharisees, Sadducees and Naaman not see the healing miracles?

Were those miracles not valid?

Because to receive healing, you must be positive, have faith, trust God. This is what Jesus taught to those He healed.

Matthew 9

27 And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.

28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it unto you.”