He seemed to be missing a point of my previous post, and your post would seem to indicate that you missed it also.
Is cessation an observation or theology?
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In what areas do you think Pentecostals are overly emotional?
Is calling Pentecostals emotional your god? Is posting poor interpretations your god? What is your criteria for saying someone has a 'god' and do you apply such criteria so loosely to yourself?
I don't know that you have the ability to discern between the two or care to.
It's like watching someone jump out of the airplane before you do, without his parachute.
Logos and logic are derived from the same Greek root word.
What perplexes you now are to be understood through logic and reason.
I give up. You don't seem to understand a word of what I say.
I tell you it's not about grammar but you still make it about grammar.
I tell you it's about no new information but you make it about delivery of that information.
I tell you it's about the corporate Church and what they had to work with early on but you still want to make it about individuals.
I don't even know why you raised the issue of evangelists.
Have a nice day.
Well, you could explain what you mean. I didn't see a coherent argument doctrinally in what you were trying to say, and so I will admit to filling in the gaps with more generic cessationist arguments I've encountered.I give up. You don't seem to understand a word of what I say.
I tell you it's not about grammar but you still make it about grammar.
I tell you it's about no new information but you make it about delivery of that information.
I tell you it's about the corporate Church and what they had to work with early on but you still want to make it about individuals.
I don't even know why you raised the issue of evangelists.
Have a nice day.
I even quoted the bit about evangelists in response to your post, "I can identify the evangelists in the Church I attend? Why do I need to know more?" I'm not sure why you brought up evangelists. That's not my quote. That was yours, wasn't it?
You started talking about evangelists, not me. I responded to your comment.
I have no idea how to make it any simpler for your understanding.
I see what happened now.
Some of my comments sometimes assume people have studied out issues they are commenting on. Timothy had a gift in him through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders. Timothy was told to do the work of an evangelist and co-authored a letter in which the authors referred to themselves 'as apostles of Christ'. Barnabas and Saul were sent out by the Holy Spirit, separated with the laying on of hands, after the Spirit spoke. It doesn't say 'prophesied' in that passaged, but the Spirit spoke as prophets and teachers were praying and fasting and ministering to the Lord.
Anyway, the point is that prophecy can point out those with gifts or be a means of imparting gifts to those individuals.
Oh so you think you you know how much other posters on the form have studied? Do you claim a supernatural revelation about this?
I was just stating a fact.
And, you get defensive?
That is emotionalism.
Besides?
I ask you?
Do you know how much other posters on the form have studied?
Had you said that at the beginning at least I would have recognised why you were tying it into prophecy. Better late than never. Thanks.
You appear to be trolling with that first comment.
I didn't make the claims about how much others have studied.
You mentioned you went to Bible college. I hope you don't fill a pulpit with your attitude and your stretchy use of scripture. There are hundreds of millions of Pentecostals, multitudes of our brethren who go to church, who believe the Lord Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead. They vary in degree as to how emotionally expressive they are. Yet you broadly accuse them of making a 'god' of emotion.
Your exegetical evidence is flimsy. Paul weeping being emotionally expressive himself warns of those whose God is their belly who are the enemy of the cause of Christ. Commentators, including early ones who spoke the languages, take this as referring to appetites, some tying it in to the actual stomach. Other commentators tie it in to Epicurean thinking making pleasure out to be the highest good. Others associate it with the Judaizer's (mentioned earlier in the chapter) focus on the flesh. But you equate it to emotion. Then, without exegetical basis for it, you accuse Pentecostals of making a god of their emotions.
That kind of broad vague judging, broadly condemning brethren in Christ based on such flimsy reasoning is something I find rather distasteful and alarming. Anyway, I would encourage you to be more faithful with your use of scripture and careful about judging others.
So, when people's thinking becomes greatly influenced by their emotions they are letting their emotions be their GOD (which suggests idolatry) Is this how we are to view people when they come to us overcome with suffering or loss? The Bible says:
18 The LORD is NEAR to the brokenhearted; He SAVES the contrite in spirit. 19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the LORD delivers him from them all.…(Psalm 34:18)
When Jesus saw Martha and Mary grieving and the people mourning the loss of Lazarus did He rebuke them saying: "Pull youselves together. Quit letting your BELLY be your god? No the word says: 33When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come with her also weeping, He was deeply moved in spirit and troubled (John 11:33)
Then we read one of the shortest verses in the Bible: 35 Jesus wept.
In this Jesus was not letting His human emotions rule Him. He was showing his humanity and love.
Your minimalistic interpretation of Philippians 3:17-19 does not take into account how the same (or similar) words are used the in various contexts in which it appears. Literally, of course, the word refers to the bowels which means the STOMACH and its APPETITES. In that case, someone whose "god is his belly" could be speaking about someone who SLAVISHLY serves his physical appetites. However, the same word (or related synonyms) can also refer to the our inner experience of God's mercy and compassion. For some reason, you ignore this line of inquiry preferring instead to apply it to human EMOTIONS. Do you think FEELING compassion somehow compromises faith? I can tell you this by experience - that when people sense that we are resonating with their suffering they are more inclined to receive what we SAY to them. Having emotions and weeping for people is certainly does not make someone an enemy of the cross.
I have experienced the errors of various modern movements which, at times, caused me to doubt what was written about what the Apostles did. However, when I went back and studied the writings of those who were considered to be orthodox believers, I found that most expressed no doctrine of Cessationism. In their writings, they reported that Christians reported periodic revivals accompanied by the same supernatural Charismata Paul alluded to in 1 Corinthians 12.
One teacher/pastor/author of the Second Century who taught that the gifts of the Spirit were still in effect was
JUSTIN MARTYR (100-165 AD)
In his Dialogue with Trypho, which presented a hypothetical dialogue between a Jew and a Christian makes it abundantly clear that the prophetical gifts of the Jews had been transferred to the Christians. He starts chapter 82 of his apologetic book declaring,
“For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time.” He continues the same line of reasoning in chapter 87 arguing that the Spirit continues to impart gifts of grace “to those who believe in Him, according as He deems each man worthy thereof.” The following chapter, 88, also affirmed the presence tense operation of the spiritual gifts: “Now, it is possible to see among us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God.”
Another notable figure in the early Church who believed Continuationism was
IRENAEUS of LYONS (120-202 AD)
In his magnum opus Against Heresies Irenaeus bears witness to the wide range of spiritual gifts on display within the second century. Irenaeus goes so far as to use the charismata as an indication of discipleship of the true Jesus (in contrast to the Gnostic one). Ireneus, who is still is highly respected for his orthodoxy and for the accuracy of his hermeneutic approach to scripture, reported this:
“Those who are in truth Jesus’ disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform miracles, so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe in Christ, and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years”
(Against Heresies, Book 2 chapter 32 section 4).
One teacher/pastor/author of the Second Century who taught that the gifts of the Spirit were still in effect was
JUSTIN MARTYR (100-165 AD)
In his Dialogue with Trypho, which presented a hypothetical dialogue between a Jew and a Christian makes it abundantly clear that the prophetical gifts of the Jews had been transferred to the Christians. He starts chapter 82 of his apologetic book declaring,
“For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time.” He continues the same line of reasoning in chapter 87 arguing that the Spirit continues to impart gifts of grace “to those who believe in Him, according as He deems each man worthy thereof.” The following chapter, 88, also affirmed the presence tense operation of the spiritual gifts: “Now, it is possible to see among us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God.”
Another notable figure in the early Church who believed Continuationism was
IRENAEUS of LYONS (120-202 AD)
In his magnum opus Against Heresies Irenaeus bears witness to the wide range of spiritual gifts on display within the second century. Irenaeus goes so far as to use the charismata as an indication of discipleship of the true Jesus (in contrast to the Gnostic one). Ireneus, who is still is highly respected for his orthodoxy and for the accuracy of his hermeneutic approach to scripture, reported this:
“Those who are in truth Jesus’ disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform miracles, so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe in Christ, and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years”
(Against Heresies, Book 2 chapter 32 section 4).
I see....
You are accusing me of being anti emotion.
When it was not what I was referring to.
I ask you...
When people make emotions their god?
Not simply, having emotions?
Can you discern the difference?
........
........
Being large in number means nothing to validate oneself.
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Matthew 22:14
Matthew 22:14
For many are called (are saved).
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified;
those he justified, he also glorified (resurrection body). (Rom 8:30)
The "called" are all saved ones!
Yet...
Only a few out of the many are the chosen!
To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne,
just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. (Rev 3:21)
Few are chosen out from all who are saved, to reign with the Lord!
Only those who overcome shall reign with Jesus!
To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne,
just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." (Rev 3:21)
So much for my "stretchy" exegesis.
.....