Is cessation an observation or theology?

[presidente]

@JimiSurvivor

Seems like this man wants to stick to his guns, no matter how unreasonable his position is shown to be.

Enemies of the cross of Christ..... but saved.... for being too emotional or whatever he has in mind. Keep at it and he might call you stupid and block you.

If he blocks you, then you could correct his error for other readers, but he'll block himself off from correction from you.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

I pointed out that God called him stupid.

Proverbs 12:1
Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid.

I was simply in agreement with God.
God calls him stupid.

keep trying.

You are not a prophet who can say "Thus saith the Lord" to others. The only valid opinions we have must be grounded in the scriptures and offered in the form of reasoned arguments according to the rules of sound hermeneutics. You have made no such case.

Besides this, have you forgotten what the Apostle Peter said:
15But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you the reason for the hope that is in you. But respond with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who slander you may be put to shame by your good behavior in Christ.…(1 Peter 3:15)

Simply quoting a scripture and claiming it applies to someone is not enough. You have to make a well-reasoned case for what you believe based on evidence.The word translated DEFENSE in the above verse is apología (from 575 /apó, "FROM" and 3056 /lógos, "intelligent reasoning") Properly, it means a well-reasoned reply; a thought-out response that adequately addresses the issue(s) that raised.

Calling someone "stupid" is not the way to convince anyone of anything. All that will do is convince them that you are are emotionally reactive which is what you accused the Pentecostals of being. It would help if you did not assume you know vastly more than everyone else on the site..

 

[Genez]

A. Here you claim that the group Paul was referring to in Philippians 3 were not condemned eternally but that the Apostle was only referring to those whose WORKS would be burned up.
18 For as I have often told you before, and now say again even with tears: Many live as ENEMIES of the CROSS of Christ
Paul does not refer to them as errant children who need correction Rather, he calls them ENEMIES of the CROSS OF CHRIST. This means they are in active opposition not only to what Christ DID on the cross but to Christ's role as sacrifice and savior. Paul said that the cross is foolishness to UNBELIEVERS.

That is one way to look at it.
And, is a good way to see it.

Yet?

You do not believe that when a believer has something about himself that is opposed to the Word?
And has been shown it to be so via sound doctrine?
That he should not take up his cross and deny self?

Those who refuse to deny self and take up their cross?
These are enemies of the Cross.

For God wants us to be imitators of Christ!

Therefore, be imitators of God as dear children.
And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us
and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice
to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. Ephesians 5:1-2

When a believer's god is his emotions?
And, the Word refutes his desired path?
He will fight to save his life, as to not lose it.
In reverse… He will deny the Cross, not himself.

For whoever desires to save his life
will lose it, but whoever loses his life
for My sake will save it." Luke 9:24

Those who desire to save their lives refuse the Cross that God says they should take up in obedience to deny self.

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me,
let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." Luke 9:24

Luke 9:24, in effect, is saying we are to imitate Christ who denied himself.
Jesus denied himself as to qualify in taking up His Cross.
Not quite like as in our case, to die for mankind's sins as Christ did.
But to die to what wants to make us sin as to avoid gaining transformation into the image of Christ.

Tongues today is a terrible antagonist to the will of God for our lives.
Because, the gift has ceased being from God centuries ago.
It is a counterfeit...

Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: “If anyone comes to me
and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their
own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:25-26

Pentecostal types are not true disciples. They follow a different Jesus.

In Christ...

 

[Genez]

Simply quoting a scripture and claiming it applies to someone is not enough. You have to make a well-reasoned case for what you believe based on evidence.The word translated DEFENSE in the above verse is apología (from 575 /apó, "FROM" and 3056 /lógos, "intelligent reasoning") Properly, it means a well-reasoned reply; a thought-out response that adequately addresses the issue(s) that raised.

Calling someone "stupid" is not the way to convince anyone of anything. All that will do is convince them that you are are emotionally reactive which is what you accused the Pentecostals of being. It would help if you did not assume you know vastly more than everyone else on the site..

Jesus did that. He called the religious ones very bad names.
Some understood. Others refused.

 

[presidente]

That is one way to look at it.
And, is a good way to see it.

Yet?

You do not believe that when a believer has something about himself that is opposed to the Word?
And has been shown it to be so via sound doctrine?
That he should not take up his cross and deny self?

Those who refuse to deny self and take up their cross?
These are enemies of the Cross.

The irony.

 

[Lamar]

You are not a prophet who can say "Thus saith the Lord" to others. The only valid opinions we have must be grounded in the scriptures and offered in the form of reasoned arguments according to the rules of sound hermeneutics. You have made no such case.

Besides this, have you forgotten what the Apostle Peter said:
15But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you the reason for the hope that is in you. But respond with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who slander you may be put to shame by your good behavior in Christ.…(1 Peter 3:15)

Simply quoting a scripture and claiming it applies to someone is not enough. You have to make a well-reasoned case for what you believe based on evidence.The word translated DEFENSE in the above verse is apología (from 575 /apó, "FROM" and 3056 /lógos, "intelligent reasoning") Properly, it means a well-reasoned reply; a thought-out response that adequately addresses the issue(s) that raised.

Calling someone "stupid" is not the way to convince anyone of anything. All that will do is convince them that you are are emotionally reactive which is what you accused the Pentecostals of being. It would help if you did not assume you know vastly more than everyone else on the site..

The question at hand is not about whether or not the New Testament supports the existence of physical supernatural manifestations, of course it does!

You and Presidente are simply trying to distract.

Both of you are employing "personal claims" as evidence of the modern day Pentecostal Movement being of God.

The Pentecostal Movement has no physical evidence of physical supernatural manifestations.

Claims of past events do not prove current events.

I do not need to present scriptural evidence proving something is not happening.

I cannot scripturally prove the Earth is not flat but that does not mean that the flat earthers are correct regardless of any verses they believe supports such a notion.

Modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations are nothing but counterfeits of New Testaments manifestations.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Jesus did that. He called the religious ones very bad names.
Some understood. Others refused.

So when you call those who disagree with you insulting names you are IMITATING CHRIST? Surely you don't really believe that.
I suppose when Peter 3:15 says....respond with gentleness and respect," The apostle got that wrong.

Besides that, what specifically have you "exposed" as being contrary to the word? You TRIED to make the word koilia (belly) primarily about hyper-emotionalism attaching it to Philippians 3:19. Several of us showed that some key figures in the study of Koine Greek. that linguistically and historically those who "made their belly their god" was understood by to be about fulfilling carnal appetites which referred to gluttony, excess consumption of alcohol and sexual immorality.

Since you REDUCED the seriousness of making ones belly their god to simply getting too emotional you made it about took the immature Christians who needed correction rather than ENEMIES of God who faced JUDGMENT (which is what the verse says)
This interpretation was not grounded on the text. Rather you imported those ideas INTO the text from your presuppositions.

The only way to find out what ANY passage is saying is to use hermeneutical principles. You have to look at the words, the grammar and context. Perhaps you should return to the methods you used to usedwhat you used to do using the tools you used in prior years. Anyone of us can get it wrong but when you were confronted with opposition you grew angry and insulting.

 

[Genez]

Besides this, have you forgotten what the Apostle Peter said:
15But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you the reason for the hope that is in you. But respond with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who slander you may be put to shame by your good behavior in Christ.…(1 Peter 3:15)

Why quote a passage involving how we are to approach an unbeliever concerning our faith?
When my words we directed to believers who should by now know better?

Simply quoting a scripture and claiming it applies to someone is not enough.

Which was what you were just guilty of doing!

.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

The question at hand is not about whether or not the New Testament supports the existence of physical supernatural manifestations, of course it does!

You and Presidente are simply trying to distract.

Both of you are employing "personal claims" as evidence of the modern day Pentecostal Movement being of God.

The Pentecostal Movement has no physical evidence of physical supernatural manifestations.

Claims of past events do not prove current events.

I do not need to present scriptural evidence proving something is not happening.

I cannot scripturally prove the Earth is not flat but that does not mean that the flat earthers are correct regardless of any verses they believe supports such a notion.

Modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations are nothing but counterfeits of New Testaments manifestations.

(1. Distraction is most certainly NOT my goal. My goal when I read and study a passage of scripture is to first correctly interpret it according to the historical-grammatical method.
(2. Since I am not Pentecostal and have no attachment to that denomination I have no personal interest in that movement nor have I anything to say about what they claim
(3. When I studied the writings of the early Christian, pastors, teachers of the Post-Apostolic, Ante-Nicene, Medieval period as well as what occurred during periodic revivals that took place afterwards, I have found MANY of who reported the operation of the charismata.
(4. If testimonies of Christians prove nothing then that must also exclude their testimony also that of those who wrote the gospels. We have only indirect evidence about what they claimed.
(5. Even Augustine who was at first a Cessationist, in the last decade of his life, completely reversed his position when he witnessed a revival of the faith accompanied by miracles. Of course, he lived in the Medieval period so we cannot believe him.
(6. Next you state a gratuitous assertion as a dogma: Modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations are nothing but counterfeits of New Testaments manifestations. This idea comes out of the presuppositions of your theology. You might as well say God no longer answers prayer or that any time a person who recovers from a grave illness after being prayed for it is just the result of chance. Instead of attributing anything to God we should probably every recovery: spontaneous remission.
(7. Those who experience miracles are usually the needy and desperate. Those who demand favors from God to prove His reality have it completely backwards.
(8. As for personal claims, I feel free to offer my own testimony as evidence of what God has done in me just as you can offer the evidence of a changed life to bear witness to your being born again....unless you think that is just a psychological event
(9. It is always interesting to me how Christians who deny that God ever intervenes miraculouly are ready to believe in Satans power to perform supernatural works

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Why quote a passage involving how we are to approach an unbeliever concerning our faith?
When my words we directed to believers who should by now know better?


Which was what you were just guilty of doing!

.

I don't mind explaining. 1 Peter 3:15 tells us how to comport ourselves when sharing the faith with unbelievers so our ATTITUDE will not cause them to stumble and give them a pretext to reject what we are telling them. The verse IS talking to believers about how to present the gospel - even to those predisposed to reject it.

 

[Genez]

I don't mind explaining. 1 Peter 3:15 tells us how to comport ourselves when sharing the faith with unbelievers so our ATTITUDE will not cause them to stumble and give them a pretext to reject what we are telling them. The verse IS talking to believers about how to present the gospel - even to those predisposed to reject it.

And... Again... what you said was irrelevant, and you just admitted it.

What I had said was directed to believers.
You cited how we are to approach unbelievers.

Can you call it quits, please?
Are you really that bored?

Please.... I know how it can get at times.

 

[presidente]

...

Both of you are employing "personal claims" as evidence of the modern day Pentecostal Movement being of God.

The Pentecostal Movement has no physical evidence of physical supernatural manifestations.

Your posts aren't even rational. You dismiss evidence of ongoing supernatural miracles, then say there is no physical evidence of physical manifestations.

You do realize, don't you, that testimony of witnesses are evidence according to scripture?

You are irrationally skeptical. Your posts don't really make sense sometimes. I mentioned you could look up Delia Knox, see her get healed, etc. There were videos about her medical ailment before that also.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Yet, he simply repeated that tongues ceased.
For at that time in history it was well established that they had ceased.

It all began in the 1800's when what appears to be tongues appeared.

The Word is to protect us.

Paul never said tongues HAD ceased. He said they WILL cease when the PERFECT has come.

 

[Genez]

(1. Distraction is most certainly NOT my goal. My goal when I read and study a passage of scripture is to first correctly interpret it according to the historical-grammatical method.
(2. Since I am not Pentecostal and have no attachment to that denomination I have no personal interest in that movement nor have I anything to say about what they claim
(3. When I studied the writings of the early Christian, pastors, teachers of the Post-Apostolic, Ante-Nicene, Medieval period as well as what occurred during periodic revivals that took place afterwards, I have found MANY of who reported the operation of the charismata.
(4. If testimonies of Christians prove nothing then that must also exclude their testimony also that of those who wrote the gospels. We have only indirect evidence about what they claimed.
(5. Even Augustine who was at first a Cessationist, in the last decade of his life, completely reversed his position when he witnessed a revival of the faith accompanied by miracles. Of course, he lived in the Medieval period so we cannot believe him.
(6. Next you state a gratuitous assertion as a dogma: Modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations are nothing but counterfeits of New Testaments manifestations. This idea comes out of the presuppositions of your theology. You might as well say God no longer answers prayer or that any time a person who recovers from a grave illness after being prayed for it is just the result of chance. Instead of attributing anything to God we should probably every recovery: spontaneous remission.
(7. Those who experience miracles are usually the needy and desperate. Those who demand favors from God to prove His reality have it completely backwards.
(8. As for personal claims, I feel free to offer my own testimony as evidence of what God has done in me just as you can offer the evidence of a changed life to bear witness to your being born again....unless you think that is just a psychological event
(9. It is always interesting to me how Christians who deny that God ever intervenes miraculouly are ready to believe in Satans power to perform supernatural works

Well if that be the case?
And, if it was legit?
Can we look at it like this?

During periods of revival there were manifestations of charismata.
It can indicate something.

That charismata will appear during times when many people are first getting saved and no one knows the Bible yet.
That as a child, they needed to think like a child.

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I reasoned as a child; ​

when I became a man, I had done with what belonged to the child." 1 Corinthians 13:11​

Meaning? We are to grow up and put away our childish ways as we mature in our thinking that only a solid knowledge of Scripture can provide. No longer clinging to what we were as a child.

Charismatic churches that never mature? Is because they keep on wanting to remain like a child...
Wanting to keep playing with the past glory-toys and amusements.

That leaves them with no excuse for insisting on remaining as a child.
That is why tongues must cease if they are truly maturing in Christ.

But do we see that happening today?

Seriously.
If that is so?
Then that must be so.

They should cease in a believer's life as he matures and grows in grace and knowledge!

But be always growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. ​

To Him be all glory, both now and to the day of Eternity! 2 Peter 3:18​

Keeping an open mind.

grace and peace....

 

[JimiSurvivor]

And... Again... what you said was irrelevant, and you just admitted it.

What I had said was directed to believers.
You cited how we are to approach unbelievers.

Can you call it quits, please?
Are you really that bored?

Please.... I know how it can get at times.

1 Peter 3:15 But in your hearts sanctify Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you the reason for the hope that is in you. But respond with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who slander you may be put to shame by your good behavior in Christ.…

Do you think it is okay to respond to other believers with harshness and disrespect instead of gentleness and respect? Jesus said we must be wise as serpents harmless as doves. Even though Paul got into vigorous debates with the Jews about Jesus being the Messiah, his heart was to reach them. Sometimes believers can get contentious about things they believe and I understand that but Paul tells us how we should speak with other believers:
1....I urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling you have received: 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3 and with diligence to preserve the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
(Ephesians 4:1-3)

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Well if that be the case?
And, if it was legit?
Can we look at it like this?

During periods of revival there were manifestations of charismata.
It can indicate something.

That charismata will appear during times when many people are first getting saved and no one knows the Bible yet.
That as a child, they needed to think like a child.

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I reasoned as a child; ​

when I became a man, I had done with what belonged to the child." 1 Corinthians 13:11​

Meaning? We are to grow up and put away our childish ways as we mature in our thinking that only a solid knowledge of Scripture can provide. No longer clinging to what we were as a child.

Charismatic churches that never mature? Is because they keep on wanting to remain like a child...
Wanting to keep playing with the past glory-toys and amusements.

That leaves them with no excuse for insisting on remaining as a child.
That is why tongues must cease if they are truly maturing in Christ.

But do we see that happening today?

Seriously.
If that is so?
Then that must be so.

They should cease in a believer's life as he matures and grows in grace and knowledge!

But be always growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. ​

To Him be all glory, both now and to the day of Eternity! 2 Peter 3:18​

Keeping an open mind.

grace and peace....

I think you are right that when a people are first reached with the gospel God often shows His power. This is still going on. I will have to disagree that the ONLY purpose of God demonstrating His power to, say, heal or perform miracles is to convince people He is real and that when we are further along He no longer answers us when we call on Him for help. God is our Father and desires to do good things for His children:
As Jesus said:…8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?…(Matthew 7:8-10)
I have received supernatural healing at times. Other times, I have found that my suffering helps me reach out to others who are going through the same thing. When I understand what He is doing I am not disappointed either way.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

I think you are right that when a people are first reached with the gospel God often shows His power. This is still going on. I will have to disagree that the ONLY reason God demonstrates His power to, say, heal or perform miracles is to convince people He is real and that when we are further along He no longer answers us when we call on Him for help. The Bible says God is our Father and desires to do good things for His children:
As Jesus said:…8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9 Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?…(Matthew 7:8-10)
I have received supernatural healing at times. Other times, I have found that my suffering helps me reach out to others who are going through the same thing. When I understand what He is doing I am not disappointed either way.

 

[Genez]

I think you are right that when a people are first reached with the gospel God often shows His power. This is still going on. I will have to disagree that the ONLY purpose of God demonstrating His power to, say, heal or perform miracles is to convince people He is real and that when we are further along He no longer answers us when we call on Him for help. God is our Father and desires to do good things for His children:

You took it too far....
One of the gifts was not answered prayer.

You were doing good up until then.

 

[presidente]

Well if that be the case?
And, if it was legit?
Can we look at it like this?

During periods of revival there were manifestations of charismata.
It can indicate something.

That charismata will appear during times when many people are first getting saved and no one knows the Bible yet.
That as a child, they needed to think like a child.

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I reasoned as a child; ​

when I became a man, I had done with what belonged to the child." 1 Corinthians 13:11​

Meaning? We are to grow up and put away our childish ways as we mature in our thinking that only a solid knowledge of Scripture can provide. No longer clinging to what we were as a child.

Charismatic churches that never mature? Is because they keep on wanting to remain like a child...
Wanting to keep playing with the past glory-toys and amusements.

That leaves them with no excuse for insisting on remaining as a child.
That is why tongues must cease if they are truly maturing in Christ.

But do we see that happening today?

Seriously.
If that is so?
Then that must be so.

They should cease in a believer's life as he matures and grows in grace and knowledge!

But be always growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. ​

To Him be all glory, both now and to the day of Eternity! 2 Peter 3:18​

Keeping an open mind.

grace and peace....

Jesus did miracles. Paul did miracles. That didn't make them immature.

If a church is winning people to Christ there will be immature believers.

Paul wrote in I Corinthians 1"7 'So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The idea that the perfect refers to what comes at the resurrection at tge return of Christ fits the flow of argument from chapters 13-15 also.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

You took it too far....
One of the gifts was not answered prayer.

You were doing good up until then.

How do you differentiate between a healing THAT IS AN ANSWER to prayer and one that comes from a GIFT of HEALING?

When God told Ananias: 11“Get up!” the Lord told him. “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”
17 So Ananias went to the house, and when he arrived, he placed his hands on Saul. “Brother Saul,” he said, “the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here, has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 At that instant, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and his sight was restored.
(Acts 9:17-18)

This blurs any artificial distinction between prayer and healing. 1 Corinthians 12:30 does not speak of a GIFT of healing (singular) but rather of GIFTS of HEALING (plural). The NOUN for gifts (of healing) is charismata (χαρίσματα) which is PLURAL noun. It helps to keep in mind who the GIVER and who is the RECEIVER of the healing. It seems obvious to me that the one who receives healing is the sick person The GIFT is the miraculous healing itself which is delivered TO the sick person through an agent who is a member of the Body. All of this is irrelevant if we assume that God never performs miracles anymore.