But, was answered prayer a new thing for the Church? No!
You are the kind that can find a way to talk about anything...
That does not mean you are informed about what matters.
Is cessation an observation or theology?
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But, was answered prayer a new thing for the Church? No!
You are the kind that can find a way to talk about anything...
That does not mean you are informed about what matters.
Answered prayer is not a new thing, neither is the fact that some people are used by God to do miracles. Moses did mighty miraculous works as did Elijah and Elisha. The difference in the NT is that God said He would pour out his Spirit, not just on the Jews but upon all people whom He would purchase to be His people:
16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on My menservants and maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
(Acts 2:16-17)
The outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon believers made it possible for "ordinary" Church members to receive and exercise spiritual gifts to do God. Paul advised people to desire and seek God to obtain some gift in order to help others. Paul said:
Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.
(1 Corinthians 14:1)
You have negated this verse and many other passages because of your traditions.
If you think I am playing word games with the scriptures or that I am being deceitful you are free to argue for that but you will have to use scriptures that have been correctly divided according to the principles of hermeneutics. Don't expect me to take the word of Martin Luther, John Calvin or the other Reformers who derived a large part of their teaching from Augustine who, in turn, imported much of what he said from the writings of the pagan Manichaeans.
I think you know that the focus of our discussion has been on the "gifts" mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12
Yes... Moses did perform miracles.
Did they continue, or after a time, come to an end?
I was going to get you to answer your own question.
If you answered what I asked you would have your answer.
If you have something to say then say it plainly. I am not going to play guessing games with you about what YOU believe.
In trying to (indirectly) GUIDE me to "answer my own questions" puts me in the role of student and you in the role of teacher and interrogator While this may be gratifying to you this kind of guessing game has absolutely no appeal to me.
I simply thought you might just want the answer what you know you can answer for yourself.
And, by the way.
We are all students here.
"Your reasoning is something like 'gifts have ceased because gifts have ceased' and 'we know testimonies of gifts don't aren't genuine because there is no evidence of gifts happening.'"
My reasoning is the same as the author of Joshua 5:12, it ceased. This is not circular reasoning this is an observation of reality.
Telling people that we live in a New Testament age of the miraculous is gaslighting!
The reality of the New Testament is one of:
Supernatural understanding of unknown tongues. Acts 2
The lowering of the paralytic thru the roof. Mark 2:4
Healing of two blind men. Matthew 9:27-31
Ten men healed of leprosy. Luke 17:11-19
Lazarus raised from the dead. John 11:1-45
Peter's shadow healing the sick. Acts 5:15-16
Paul raising the dead in Troas. Acts 20:7-12
Tabitha raised from the dead. Acts 9:36-41
Etc.
The reality of the modern day charismatic movement is one of:
Glossolalia labeled as true New Testament tongues.
Unproven claims of the the dead being raised.
Claims of past "supernatural" events being passed off as ongoing.
Professions of physical supernatural healings that are never proven.
Meaningless or false predictions being labeled as prophecy from the Holy Spirit.
Lies of translating glossolalia as words of the Holy Spirit into English.
Etc.
Again, what you and Jimi are doing is classic gaslighting.
This type of gaslighting will only work on those who want to be deceived.
Pentecostals and Flat Earthers are the most Gaslighted people I have ever met.
Where is there any evidence of 'supernatural understanding' of unknown tongues in Acts 2? It says they were speaking in tongues/languages.
But there have been hundreds of people, at least, who have either heard a 'tongue' and understood it or someone else understood them while 'speaking in tongues.' There was quite a bit of that at the Azusa Street Revival.
How many claims of people who were healed or even raised from the dead have you examined to determine if the claims were true or false. I haven't read the book. I remember a guy named Mahesh Chavda told of someone raised from the dead at a meeting in Africa. I think he might even have published the death certificate. Whether that one is legit or not, if it happens and there is documented proof, you can easily just not look at the proof and say there is no evidence, or look at the proof and dismiss it.
I did mention Delia Knox. That wasn't totally instantaneous. But it was well documented, even on TV, about the preacher's gospel singer wife in a wheelchair who'd been unable to walk since she got brain damage in an accident. She'd been prayed for a lot and wanted to avoid it. One day and evangelist laid hands on her. They walked her out of the wheelchair, which she couldn't do before. She walked very awkwardly at first. After some period of weeks, she was walking normally. There was a local news piece on her healing on a TV station in Ohio, as she walked up the steps of her parents porch, which she hadn't done in many, many years, and the mayor gave her the key to the city or a plaque or something. Anyway, I was able to find all this stuff on YouTube several years back.
You can't really prove from scripture that Eutychus was raised from the dead. But let me ask you, if an atheist asked you to prove that Tabitha had been raised from the dead, what type of proof would you give? If you showed scripture, how would you argue that this is reliable evidence to an atheist?
I don't have to believe every claim of something supernatural going on is legit to believe that God has this power and that the scripture's teaching on this topic is true.
The thing is, doctrinally, there is absolutely no scripture to back up the idea that God cannot, will not, would not heal through individuals, through gifts of the Spirit. You are basing your doctrine on this issue on a kind of modernistic skepticism that is not compatible with Christianity, not scripture.
Acts 2:5-8
there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?
Is the above not "supernatural understanding" of unknown tongues.
Azusa Street?? A hundred year old farce is your evidence?
Is this your evidence that the miraculous New Testament Age is upon us???
If we were living in an age of the miraculous you would not need to present such lame evidence.
Can you really not see this?
BTW...Mahesh Chavda is a known fraud and Delia Knox is certainly not an example of "pick up your mat and walk". Her brain is healing from the accident but she still needs the wheelchair and needs help standing up. This is why any film of her walking is planned.
We are not discussing whether the events of physical supernatural manifestations of the Bible actually happened and you know it!
This is about the claims that the physical supernatural manifestations of the New Testament are occurring today.
We must take the reality of people like Eutychus and Tabitha being raised from the dead 2000 years ago on faith.
This is not true of ongoing claims of the same today.
Of course God has the power but this is not the issue.
There is nothing in the scriptures to prove that we are not living in an age of faith without sight.
This has nothing to do with doctrine, this is about taking your head out of the sand.
Read verse 11. They said they heard them SPEAKING in their own languages. They didn't say they heard them in languages they weren't speaking. The passage says they were speaking in tongues (languages) so why would the languages they spoke in be different from the languages heard?
I've seen clips of Delia Knox walking without a wheelchair, going up steps. Jesus laid hands on a blind man twice. He said he saw 'men as trees walking' after the first time. If a healing isn't instantaneous, that doesn't mean that it isn't a healing or that we shouldn't thank God. Was the healing of the blind man I am referring to evidence that miracles stopped before the Gospel ended in your opinion? Do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead.
I read the claim of Mahesh Chavda. I don't have detailed knowledge of his life. (That was decades ago.) If you are going to accuse someone, do you have evidence that the man is a fraud? What did he do that you are accusing him of?
I would like you to behave like a reasonable Christian if you claim to believe the scriptures. If you are going to accuse someone, you should have a basis for doing so, since the Bible warns against slander, evil speaking, etc. If you have a legitimate accusation against someone, that's fine, but it's not right to just go around accusing people.
This was in response to an attempt to actually get you to reason, instead of spouting the same thing like 1980's computer program designed to imitate a skeptic. Your epistemological approach to the topic is more or less the same as that of an irrate, uneducated atheist online.
And if that were your argument to an atheist, and you were trying to convince him just based on that, he would probably think that is a very stupid argument
You are obviously using that 'walk by faith and not by sight' in a way that was not intended, that did not make sense to the one who wrote it or to his audience.
Paul-- who lived in the first century, healed and performed wonders, writing to a church that exercised spiritual gifts like tongues, interpretation, prophecy, gifts of healing, and the working of miracles as they waited for the Lord Jesus to come back, wrote that we walk by faith and not by sight.
If seeing or doing supernatural things disqualified one from walking by faith and not by sight, then the author and the immediate readers were not walking by faith. Stop misusing scripture. I already pointed this out to you.
The scriptures teach that the Spirit gives the gifts listed in I Corinthians 12 'as He wills'. Do you have some scripture that teaches that He no longer wills to do so? Do you claim some authority to tell the Spirit of God what to will, or what He may or may not do? You apparently have a problem with God's sovereignty, wanting to decree that some teachings of the New Testament for the church are no longer valid.
You can accept what the Bible teaches whether you have seen a miracle or not. But then if you did that, your world view would change a bit, and you would realize you would have to evaluate claims of the supernatural based on their own merit, and not dismiss them out of hand. The way you approach the topic seems more like that of (an uneducated outspoken) materialistic atheist.
What raises people from the dead is the daily intake of learning sound doctrine.
Many are not willing..
2 Timothy 4:3- Paul warned about what we see today.
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers
to say what their itching ears want to hear.
.
Classic gaslighting is a term used in psychology to indicate a form of psychological abuse where one person causes someone else to question their sanity, memories, or perception of reality. This is a real phenomenon which I have observed in my work as a Counselor. Usually it comes from unhealthy family systems. Those who experience gaslighting often feel confused, anxious, or unable to trust themselves. Since it is a tool of manipulation the subject of gaslighting does not feel free to doubt or question what has happened. Though you use a term that has become popular I see no sign that you are attempting to apply the term with any degree of precision.
The whole scenario you present is a gross generalization, a caricature which you have created in order to vent your anger. Testifying that a miracle HAS taken place is not usually meant as psychological abuse. It, could simply be a statement about what a witness sincerely believes to be true. Do you have the same contempt for someone who disagrees with you and offers reasonable (scriptual) arguments to prove their point both from scripture as well as natural examples drawn from their own experience Such people may not be attempting to "GASLIGHT" you. Perhaps they are simply offering evidence to validate their claims.
Instead of assessing your opponents arguments you attribute everything they say to *impure motives" This is the essence of what an ad homiem argument which is an attempt tp divert the focus of a discussion to your opponents motives (which you do not really know) rather than to stick to the main issue of whether what they have said is true or false. You also go as far as to smear your opponents by labeling them "flat-earthers" Of course, this phrase has nothing whatever to do with them or their views of the planet. It is simply your way of saying everyone who believes God is still willing to do miracles are ignorant unscientific rubes.
Since the Ante-Nicene believers, teachers and leaders (who were not ignorant bumpkins) continued to report periodic revivals of the Faith accompanied by the gifts of the Holy Spirit we must give their testimony SOME weight unless they were all liars too. At the very least, their writings show that they themselves had no settled doctrine or Apostolic tradition affirming Cessationism. Augustine who came a little later began his ministry teaching Cessationism but, during the last decade of his life, after he himself witnessed a revival of faith and saw miracles, Augustine reversed Himself and even published his newly revised views in several books:
The City of God and Retractions
So if "sound doctrine" is taught consistently sooner or later some dead people will begin to come back from the dead? I don't think you really believe that. The Pharisees also studied the scriptures intently. Did they do any miracles? Let us look at the Reformers Luther, Calvin and Zwingli who learned the original language of the scriptures and taught it extensively. Despite their knowledge they declared war on smaller groups like the Mennonites and Anabaptists and attempted to exterminate them.
Well?
It might just be...
That the 'temporary gifts' are given to newly saved believers.
Baby Christians who have not yet had a chance to grow in knowing God's Word.
That as a child?
They will think like a child.
But? When they mature in sound doctrine? (When the perfect comes)
They will put aside their childish ways.
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child.
When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me." 1 Corinthians 13:11
That is why they were temporary.
.
I am talking about 'dead mentally, to the Spirit' in regards to being able to grasp what the Bible actually teaches.
You can study Scriptures.
You can memorize passages...
And NEVER know what you are talking about.
Hence? "Dead" to the truth.
"Cessationism" is a heresy, it's guity of denying the power of the Holy Spirit. As long as the Word is alive and active, it has not ceased, there's no cessation.
