Learn the difference being being something and doing something. God's being does not change. How he does things does. I showed you the scriptures. Stop being a jerk about it.
Is cessation an observation or theology?
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Some false assumptions underly your reasoning
1. The first is that a "gift of healing" [IF it were real and if you believed in it] would grant to the person WITH the gift the ability to heal WHOMEVER they wish WHENEVER they choose to do so.
Did even Jesus have such a gift? I do not think so:
19 So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For
whatever the Father does, the Son also does. 20 The Father loves the Son and shows Him all He does. And to your amazement, He will show Him even greater works than these.…
(John 5:19-20)
The power to work miracles did not come from Jesus out of His human nature. It came FROM God by the Holy Spirit. In order to do the works Jesus had to depend on the Father and "know what the Father was doing." Did this make Jesus a "faith healer" Even prophets like Elisha had to depend on God the Father to do the miraculous things they did.
Once when he was asked by King Jehoshaphat to give them a word from God Elisha did not immediately say anything. He did not have any thing like a continuously running gift of prophecy which he could turn on and off. In fact, Elisha had nothing (prophetic) to say until he received inspiration from the Holy Spirit. This is why, he had to wait:
…14Then Elisha said, “As surely as the LORD of Hosts lives, before whom I stand, were it not for my regard for the presence of Jehoshaphat king of Judah, I would not look at you or acknowledge you. 15 But now, bring me a harpist.” And while the harpist played, the hand of the LORD came upon Elisha 16and he said, “This is what the LORD says: ‘Dig this valley full of ditches.’…
(2 Kings 11:14-15)
Sometimes Cessasionists try and insinuate some arbitrary distinction between the gift of healing and healing that happens as an answer to prayer. I doubt the Early Believers made any such fine distinctions. Since most Cessationists deny that any supernatural miracles occur at all. How could they have anything but abstract or imaginary notions about how they MIGHT have operated in practice?
Some false assumptions underly your reasoning
1. The first is that a "gift of healing" [IF it were real and if you believed in it] would grant to the person WITH the gift the ability to heal WHOMEVER they wish WHENEVER they choose to do so.
Did even Jesus have such a gift? I do not think so:
19 So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For
whatever the Father does, the Son also does. 20 The Father loves the Son and shows Him all He does. And to your amazement, He will show Him even greater works than these.…
(John 5:19-20)
The power to work miracles did not come out of Jesus human nature. It came FROM the Father to Jesus by the Holy Spirit. In order to do the works Jesus had to depend on the Father. He had to "know what the Father was doing." Did this make Jesus a "faith healer"
which seems to suggest that healing was a kind of superpower granted to certain people. However, even prophets who knew how to listen to the Spirit, like Elisha, had to depend on God the Father to do the miraculous things they did.
Once when he was asked by King Jehoshaphat to give them a word from God Elisha did not immediately say anything. He did not have any thing like a continuously running gift of prophecy which he could turn on and off at will. In fact, Elisha had nothing (prophetic) to say until he received inspiration from the Holy Spirit. This is why, he had to wait:
…14Then Elisha said, “As surely as the LORD of Hosts lives, before whom I stand, were it not for my regard for the presence of Jehoshaphat king of Judah, I would not look at you or acknowledge you. 15 But now, bring me a harpist.” And while the harpist played, the hand of the LORD came upon Elisha 16and he said, “This is what the LORD says: ‘Dig this valley full of ditches.’…
(2 Kings 11:14-15)
Sometimes Cessasionists try and insinuate some arbitrary distinction between the gift of healing and healing that happens as an answer to prayer. I doubt the Early Believers made any such fine distinctions. Since hard line Cessationists deny that any supernatural miracles occur at all, how could they have and specific knowledge about it? Therefore their ideas must be either highly abstract or imaginary notions about how they MIGHT have operated in practice?
Hello! I hope your day is going well. The bible says some really exciting things that happened in the New Testament in regards to healing all who came looking for it:
Acts 5:12-16 The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade. No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by impure spirits, and all of them were healed.
Luke 6:19 And those who were troubled with unclean spirits were cured. And all the crowd sought to touch him, for power came out from him and healed them all.
Matthew 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, He withdrew from there. And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them all.
Acts 28: 9Then all the other sick people on the island came and were healed.
IMHO it's a very tough sell to say what the modern church is doing is a continuation of this.
God Bless You
This OP is certainly not about events that happened hundreds of years ago...are you aware of this? Nor is this about passages in the Bible on the subject of miraculous events. If you truly read the OP you would know this.
It is also a mockery of the Holy Spirit to claim the mundane events of the Pentecostals are works of the Holy Spirit.Hello! I hope your day is going well. The bible says some really exciting things that happened in the New Testament in regards to healing all who came looking for it:
Acts 5:12-16 The apostles performed many signs and wonders among the people. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade. No one else dared join them, even though they were highly regarded by the people. Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by. Crowds gathered also from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing their sick and those tormented by impure spirits, and all of them were healed.
Luke 6:19 And those who were troubled with unclean spirits were cured. And all the crowd sought to touch him, for power came out from him and healed them all.
Matthew 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, He withdrew from there. And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them all.
Acts 28: 9Then all the other sick people on the island came and were healed.
IMHO it's a very tough sell to say what the modern church is doing is a continuation of this.
God Bless You
Your assertion that, 'Cessationists deny that any supernatural miracles occur at all', is completely untrue. It is a 'straw man' argument. God does supernatural things all the time. What Cessationists claim is that God no longer uses healers and miracle workers today. He still performs healings and miracles in answer to prayer.
How convenient, a build-in excuse to ignore the obvious.
And a rather poor excuse at that.
A great example of the depth of the delusion that Pentecostals live in.
1st Corinthians 14:32
"and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;"
Wait...wait let me guess. This verse does not apply because???
I have read a number of their responses and it is past being an assertion, it is clearly an observation.
They are all delusional and lack real depth of intellect. IOW...dull.
It seems to me that the whole argument as to whether the sign & revelationary gifts are available or not today, comes down to the authority and sufficiency of the Word of God. If the Word of God is God's final revelation found in a completed canon, how can there also be 'revelation gifts' like, prophecy, words of knowledge & wisdom and modern-day Apostles & Prophets today?
The Healers and Workers of miracles in the New Testament were the Apostles & Prophets and their delegates, all foundational ministries, Eph 2:20. Once the Church has been built, there is no need to build a new foundation again.
The Word of God plainly states that New Testament 'tongues' were human languages unknown to the speaker, not the phenomenon we see happening today.
It is all about the Word of God, the Bible, its authority and sufficiency. Paul tells us that having the Scriptures, we are 'complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work' 2 Tim 3:17.
It appears to me, that to insist that there are modern day sign & revelationary gifts is to deny the very function and place of the Word of God in the life and ministry of the Church.
The Healers and Workers of miracles in the New Testament were the Apostles & Prophets and their delegates, all foundational ministries, Eph 2:20. Once the Church has been built, there is no need to build a new foundation again.
The Word of God plainly states that New Testament 'tongues' were human languages unknown to the speaker, not the phenomenon we see happening today.
It is all about the Word of God, the Bible, its authority and sufficiency. Paul tells us that having the Scriptures, we are 'complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work' 2 Tim 3:17.
It appears to me, that to insist that there are modern day sign & revelationary gifts is to deny the very function and place of the Word of God in the life and ministry of the Church.
You actually believe God would give Gifts that are not Who or What He is?
Unbelievable!
I don't believe Irs68 is being a jerk. I suspect he is truly a silly person.
He cannot seem to convey a logical response.
His answer in post# 510 is classic.
No, that was never the argument.
You claimed God is unchanging and I pointed out that is in relation to His character/nature not in respect to how He does things. I gave you scriptures showing how God does indeed work differently in different ages just as a parent works differently as their child grows. Yet you insisted in jerking us all around with your insistence of "God never changes anything" routine.
If you cannot logically follow an argument may I suggest you take some lessons in debating.
Either way, I see your point about his post#510 response. Not any where near on track. No relationship whatsoever to what I said.
I agree about God not changing but this Thread is about Cessation so I was responding in accordance to the theme of the topic.No, that was never the argument.
You claimed God is unchanging and I pointed out that is in relation to His character/nature not in respect to how He does things. I gave you scriptures showing how God does indeed work differently in different ages just as a parent works differently as their child grows. Yet you insisted in jerking us all around with your insistence of "God never changes anything" routine.
If you cannot logically follow an argument may I suggest you take some lessons in debating.
If you would read the OP the "theme of the topic" is not about proving cessation, it is about the unproven claims of the Pentecostal movement.
It clearly states that the point of the thread is not defending cessation but pointing out the absurd claims of this group.
This you miss this?
Here it is condensed:
I find little in scripture to defend cessation but even less to support the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit continuing today as it was during the New Testament.
This is not true of modern day claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.
It seems the claims of Pentecostals and Charismatics are but wishful thinking and self-delusion.
Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.
Jesus did.
So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.
On Any Given prayer request it is not based on whether or not we have some sin in our lives as we would never have been heard when we pled to be saved...
it rains on the good and the bad
Then you should have known God does indeed change the way He does things and your argument was in error. There was a time when no-one received the gifts other than a select few and they were limited to certain gifts, but now all who believe receive a gift.
You clearly have not researched the worship examples of king David, Isaiah, and the Apostle Paul.
T
TruthDefender
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“Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.”
I Corinthians 13:8-10 NKJV