Is cessation an observation or theology?

[pinebeach]

Then enlighten me, what was the source material for bible versions in other languages? French? Russian? Japanese? Hindu? Arabic? From which version were they translated? That's just a wild tangent, don't waste more time on it.

You know, you cannot stop what God does and you cannot stop the Holy Spirit from doing what God instucts Him to do. What can be stopped, are the fakes, the charlatans, liars, false prophets and men who abuse God's people. But, it just keeps getting worse. If you ask me, deniers of scripture are no better or worse than the ones I just named. You are all on the same side.

You do not want enlightenment. You think you already have it.

Whatever other language you keep under wraps, is not about what scripture states concerning the spiritual gifts.

 

[pinebeach]

Then don't. I don't believe all bible translations are created equal, only KJV is the most authoritative.

LOL! Telling others they are wrong while waving this flag. Typical. Of course not all translations are to be recommended anymore than not all believers actually believe.

 

[pinebeach]

Nonetheless, KJV has been the absolute frame of reference. When a newer translation of bible is suspected to be inaccurate or adulterated, you check it against KJV; plus, bible in other languages were usually translated from KJV, not the original Greek and Hebrew, so when it's suspected to be inaccurate or adulterated, you also check it against KJV.

Quite the imagination you have.

 

[pinebeach]

How can believers be that backslidden to even think the Holy Spirit is now weak and powerless????????????

Are they believers though? They certainly do not believe the entire Bible

 

[CS1]

Not going to work.

My comment was about post# 825 in which the following was stated:

"How can believers be that backslidden to even think the Holy Spirit is now weak and powerless????????????"

This is the comment that you were attempting to defend.

And yes, Pentecostals and their ilk are among the doubting Thomas crowd.

Always looking for the next physical supernatural manifestation.

yea sure because you say so LOL. Lamar, you did a great job of showing your hate and hierocracy.

WE Pentecostals do not look for the next Manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said they would follow those who believe, which we do believe without seeing. Only a perverted generation needs to see for proof, that is the club you're in, not me.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Then show me bible in which language was translated from which source, how the translators had the access to the original manuscript, and how they had the correct understanding of the ancient words without English as a medium.

You seem to be the only one here who is interested in pursuing this topic so why assign someone else to research it for you? Do the work yourself. You seem to be trying to hijack this thread which is supposed to be about whether the spiritual gifts (the "charismata" mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 12) still CAN occur or whether they have ceased because they have exceeded some Biblical expiration date.

 

[Lamar]

You seem to be the only one here who is interested in pursuing this topic so why assign someone else to research it for you? Do the work yourself. You seem to be trying to hijack this thread which is supposed to be about whether the spiritual gifts (the "charismata" mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 12) still CAN occur or whether they have ceased because they have exceeded some Biblical expiration date.

???

"to be about whether the spiritual gifts (the "charismata" mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 12) still CAN occur or whether they have ceased because they have exceeded some Biblical expiration date."

This is nothing about what this thread is about.

This is about the validity toward the claims of the Pentecostal movement being on par with the supernatural events of the New Testament.

1st Corinthians 12 is not even mentioned in the OP.

Did you really read the OP or are you just attacking a strawman of your own making?

Be honest.

BTW, Lovette is just a silly fellow who cannot admit his inability to defend his claim.

 

[CS1]

???

"to be about whether the spiritual gifts (the "charismata" mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 12) still CAN occur or whether they have ceased because they have exceeded some Biblical expiration date."

This is nothing about what this thread is about.

This is about the validity toward the claims of the Pentecostal movement being on par with the supernatural events of the New Testament.

1st Corinthians 12 is not even mentioned in the OP.

Did you really read the OP or are you just attacking a strawman of your own making?

Be honest.

BTW, Lovette is just a silly fellow who cannot admit his inability to defend his claim.

you're being disingenuous to lovette. The thread is:

"Is cessation an observation or theology?" which you started.​

In there very is the debate because you said : "This is about the validity toward the claims of the Pentecostal movement."
YET you tried to hide your objective by calling the thread " Is cessation an observation or theology." You wanted to attack Pentecostals and what you think is movement as if the reformation was not a movement. Try staying with the word of GOD for once if you can.

You say Lovette is silly, yet you are the immature one. 1Corinthians chapter 12 did not have to be mentioned, yet it is because the text from chapter 12 to 14 and your use of chapter 13: 8-10 as the foundational text the gifts have stopped. Which I might add also is not contextual. SO you continue with your "claims of the Pentecostal movement. " because you have no biblical support to prove the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today.

Your personal lack of experience or bad ones do not remove this truth. Please continue to lie and attack others.

 

[Anchorite]

Having a faith without sight does not make the Holy Spirit "weak and powerless", it makes a Christian blessed. (John 20:29)

Having a faith without sight does not make a Christian backslidden.

I have been a believer in the supernatural ability of God for decades yet have never seen it personally. Can you say the same?

You seem to believe because of your "tons of miracles".

You seem to be in the doubting Thomas crowd.

A faith without sight?

Do you mean you believe in God, but do not see any answers to prayer, supernatural ability of God, or miracles?

If a person is seeing lots of miracles, it cannot be due to doubting like Thomas.

Jesus said faith results in miracles.

Matthew 9:29

Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

???

"to be about whether the spiritual gifts (the "charismata" mentioned by Paul in 1 Corinthians 12) still CAN occur or whether they have ceased because they have exceeded some Biblical expiration date."

This is nothing about what this thread is about.

You do not think the issue of Cessationism vs Continuationism is central to this debate? After all, was this not the reason why some people withdrew from whatever denomination they belonged to and organized themselves under the rubric of "Pentecostal" in the first place? To say that this has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread avoids debate by disqualifying and dismissing counter-arguments.

This is about the validity toward the claims of the Pentecostal movement being on par with the supernatural events of the New Testament.

If you are wanting to focus on whether claims of supernatural activity are authentic you have a lot of data to sift through - both
(1) historical as well as (2) personal testimony. Instead of doing this, you pre-emptively reject both kinds of evidence.

1st Corinthians 12 is not even mentioned in the OP.


Did you really read the OP or are you just attacking a strawman of your own making?

Be honest.

Does a passage have to be explicitly referred to if it can be shown to be relevant to the topic at hand....or perhaps we should not draw ANY inferences and focus only on your primary goal of debunking Pentecostalism?

Perhaps next we should turn our attention to the inexcusable wickedness of the Reformers who had been distracted from initial hunger for truth into violent anti-nicene wars against smaller groups who also opposed Catholicism but who had very different doctrines on other matters.

 

[Lovette]

LOL! Telling others they are wrong while waving this flag. Typical. Of course not all translations are to be recommended anymore than not all believers actually believe.

It is a fact that no English or other translation is perfect, including KJV, so there's no absolute right or wrong on this issue, it's not like reading and studying one version makes you smarter and greater than others who read other versions. The point is that the bible is not God's only revelation, it doesn't cover everything about God, as much as a biography doesn't cover every bit of a person's life, it shouldn't be worshipped as an idol or weaponized to justify things.

 

[Lovette]

You know, you cannot stop what God does and you cannot stop the Holy Spirit from doing what God instucts Him to do. What can be stopped, are the fakes, the charlatans, liars, false prophets and men who abuse God's people. But, it just keeps getting worse. If you ask me, deniers of scripture are no better or worse than the ones I just named. You are all on the same side.

You do not want enlightenment. You think you already have it.

Whatever other language you keep under wraps, is not about what scripture states concerning the spiritual gifts.

You know, it's better having no scripture at all than having an LGBTQ approved or communist party approved one, that's why I mentioned the authoritativeness of KJV, even though it has its own errors and inaccuracies. Personally I read NJKV. If you believe these newer versiosn are Holy Spirit inspired, so be it. Ain't gonna argue with you.

 

[Fillan]

Hello! It's just my perception but in the bible no-one questioned if the miracles happened, that a miracle had happened was evidently obvious to all, they questioned the source of the power for the amazing miracles, for examples:

They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: “By what power or what name did you do this?”..........If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. (Acts 4:7, 9, 10)

With some modern day miracle claims and stories, the source of the miracles aren't being questioned because people are questioning if anything miraculous has actually happened at all. In the miracle above in Acts the healed man who had been seen crippled his whole life was standing there in front of them all healed. The miracle was obvious to all and irrefutable.

God Bless All

 

[TruthDefender]

It is a fact that no English or other translation is perfect, including KJV, so there's no absolute right or wrong on this issue, it's not like reading and studying one version makes you smarter and greater than others who read other versions. The point is that the bible is not God's only revelation, it doesn't cover everything about God, as much as a biography doesn't cover every bit of a person's life, it shouldn't be worshipped as an idol or weaponized to justify things.

It sounds like you disbelieve that the Bible is God’s word; written by God through men?! It is complete; He has given us all we need to know Him.

 

[Lovette]

It sounds like you disbelieve that the Bible is God’s word; written by God through men?! It is complete; He has given us all we need to know Him.

Nope, the bible is sufficient but not exhaustive, says the bible itself - "And there are also many OTHER things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen." - Jn. 21:25.

One example, there's one quote from Jesus by Paul - "it is more blessed to give than to receive." I assure you, nowhere can this saying be found in any gospel.

 

[Anchorite]

Nope, the bible is sufficient but not exhaustive, says the bible itself - "And there are also many OTHER things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen." - Jn. 21:25.

One example, there's one quote from Jesus by Paul - "it is more blessed to give than to receive." I assure you, nowhere can this saying be found in any gospel.

Sufficient for our salvation is the content of the Bible.

People complain about how thick the Bible is already. I wish it was 10 times thicker. It would be nice to have more info on what Jesus said and did, including His childhood.


John 20:30,31

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[Lovette]

Sufficient for our salvation is the content of the Bible.

People complain about how thick the Bible is already. I wish it was 10 times thicker. It would be nice to have more info on what Jesus said and did, including His childhood.


John 20:30,31

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

And that's the point, sufficient but not exhaustive. Knowing more about what Jesus said and did won't affect you, witnessing and experiencing his words and deeds do. As a matter of fact, throughout the gospel accounts, nobody believed him as the messiah simply because he fit the description or timing in the prophesies. The multitudes, the pharisees, even his own disciples, believed in him because they'd witnessed and experienced the miracles he performed with their own eyes.

 

[Anchorite]

And that's the point, sufficient but not exhaustive. Knowing more about what Jesus said and did won't affect you, witnessing and experiencing his words and deeds do. As a matter of fact, throughout the gospel accounts, nobody believed him as the messiah simply because he fit the description or timing in the prophesies. The multitudes, the pharisees, even his own disciples, believed in him because they'd witnessed and experienced the miracles he performed with their own eyes.

I think Jesus inspired belief, not just due to His miracles, but also by His teachings, His compassion, His interactions with people. He did not want hordes of people flocking to Him just to see miracles performed.

Jesus commanded healed lepers not to tell others about him (specifically in Mark 1:40-44, Matthew 8:1-4, and Luke 5:12-15), primarily to prevent overwhelming crowds from disrupting his mission of preaching, avoid premature conflict with authorities, and ensure obedience to religious law. He instructed them to show themselves to a priest instead.

Despite the strong warning, the healed men often shared the news anyway, which frequently led to Jesus being unable to enter cities openly.

 

[Lovette]

I think Jesus inspired belief, not just due to His miracles, but also by His teachings, His compassion, His interactions with people. He did not want hordes of people flocking to Him just to see miracles performed.

Jesus commanded healed lepers not to tell others about him (specifically in Mark 1:40-44, Matthew 8:1-4, and Luke 5:12-15), primarily to prevent overwhelming crowds from disrupting his mission of preaching, avoid premature conflict with authorities, and ensure obedience to religious law. He instructed them to show themselves to a priest instead.

Despite the strong warning, the healed men often shared the news anyway, which frequently led to Jesus being unable to enter cities openly.

No genuine belief can be "inspired' all of a sudden, it's cultivated over time, through personal experiences and meditations. It's like no skill can be mastered by simply studying and memorizing the textbooks. The pharisees and scribes were the most knowledgeable experts of the Scripture at the time, yet they didn't recognize their king, because they were out of touch.

 

[Lovette]

It sounds like you disbelieve that the Bible is God’s word; written by God through men?! It is complete; He has given us all we need to know Him.

If you still don't get it, just ask yourself, can you become an expert of a trade by simply studying the textbook? Can you build an intimate relationship with a person by simply studying their biography? Without any trial, error and doubt? Knowing ABOUT him is one thing, knowing him is quite another.