Is cessation an observation or theology?

[pinebeach]

You know, it's better having no scripture at all than having an LGBTQ approved or communist party approved one, that's why I mentioned the authoritativeness of KJV, even though it has its own errors and inaccuracies. Personally I read NJKV. If you believe these newer versiosn are Holy Spirit inspired, so be it. Ain't gonna argue with you.

My head cannot wrap around why you pulled up LGBTO. It's so far removed from any reality regarding actual Christianity. You are shooting in the dark with no thought of what you might hit apparently, as long as you can defend what you read when you really do not need to defend it all. My gripe with the KJ consists of saying it is inspired or perfect. I grew up on the KJ and have read and still own the NKJ and I don't know what point you are trying to make at this point.

Whatever.

 

[Anchorite]

No genuine belief can be "inspired' all of a sudden, it's cultivated over time, through personal experiences and meditations. It's like no skill can be mastered by simply studying and memorizing the textbooks. The pharisees and scribes were the most knowledgeable experts of the Scripture at the time, yet they didn't recognize their king, because they were out of touch.

I did not say belief is inspired all of a sudden, did I?

You claimed that people believed in Jesus because of all the miracles they saw. But many who observed miracles did not believe or follow Christ.

I think Jesus inspired belief, not just due to His miracles, but also by His teachings, His compassion, His interactions with people. He did not want hordes of people flocking to Him just to see miracles performed.

Pharisees did not recognize their king, not because they were “out of touch”, but because they were jealous of Jesus, arrogant, and sought the praise and adulation of men. They knew Jesus was fulfilling prophecies, but they were super strict about the law. They were alien to love.

 

[TruthDefender]

Nope, the bible is sufficient but not exhaustive, says the bible itself - "And there are also many OTHER things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen." - Jn. 21:25.

Yes, the miracles that Jesus said.

One example, there's one quote from Jesus by Paul - "it is more blessed to give than to receive." I assure you, nowhere can this saying be found in any gospel.

This is so bizarre, I just did a search on one of the online bibles with that phrase and it came back saying it doesn’t exist. Yet ik that it does exist!——

Paul said he had remembered Jesus stating….:

“I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ””
‭‭Acts‬ ‭20‬:‭35‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[JimiSurvivor]

An important point we have not looked at because the originator of this thread wants to keep our attention focused completely on his central purpose - which is to debunk and condemn the Pentecostal Church. However, if that is how this forum is to be used then why stop with them? Why not go on to decry all Continuationist groups which have existed throughout history who have claimed to be witnesses to the the charismata during various seasons of revival?

Quite a lot of facts could be marshaled showing how the Church came to adopt Cessationism since that was not their original position. As I have studied it, this shift was primarily the result of Enlightenment Philisophy which caused a general movement away from faith in the transcendent God towards materialistic rationalism. This was subsequently brought into the Church by rationalistic theologians like Conyers Middleton.

John Wesley, whose life was contemporaneous with Middleton's, was very well aware of this shift and took the time to write an extensive letter debunking Middleton's Cessationist thesis. Wesley not only employed the scriptures to this end but also used incisive arguments from reason. I recommend to everyone who has been following this thread to read Wesley's sermon.

B. B. Warfield, being much more conservative than Middleton in that he defended the miracles recorded in the NT but denied the witness of the Early Church fathers and the revivalists who came later. He also came to believe that the age of miracles has passed which he covered in his book "Counterfeit Miracles" (1918).

Tom Pennington in more recent times has authored a book which uses the Bible itself to deny and disprove miracles. He wrote his conclusions in his book: A Biblical Case for Cessationism: Why the Miraculous Gifts of the Gifts of the Spirit have Ended
[which was endorsed by John MacArthur]

 

[JacobGilbert]

Cessation is theology, not mere observation.
It’s a doctrinal conclusion drawn from Scripture’s teaching on the purpose of the apostolic gifts and the sufficiency of the completed canon. History and experience are then interpreted through that lens, they don’t establish it.

 

[Anchorite]

Cessation is theology, not mere observation.
It’s a doctrinal conclusion drawn from Scripture’s teaching on the purpose of the apostolic gifts and the sufficiency of the completed canon. History and experience are then interpreted through that lens, they don’t establish it.

Cessationism is not supported by any scripture. It is a faithless, false, materialistic doctrine designed to negate the supernatural reality of Christianity, reducing it to a mere philosophy.

God would not shut off healing and miracles, just because the apostles died or the biblical canon was completed.

God is love. His power to rescue suffering people continues today.

 

[Lovette]

My head cannot wrap around why you pulled up LGBTO. It's so far removed from any reality regarding actual Christianity. You are shooting in the dark with no thought of what you might hit apparently, as long as you can defend what you read when you really do not need to defend it all. My gripe with the KJ consists of saying it is inspired or perfect. I grew up on the KJ and have read and still own the NKJ and I don't know what point you are trying to make at this point.

Whatever.

Neither can I get your point, if there is any. All I'm trying to say is to not worship or weaponize the bible as the only manifestation of God, it's sufficient but not exhaustive, says the bible itself. True belief doesn't come from reading or listening the words of God, but living and experiencing them.

 

[TruthDefender]

Cessationism is not supported by any scripture. It is a faithless, false, materialistic doctrine designed to negate the supernatural reality of Christianity, reducing it to a mere philosophy.

God would not shut off healing and miracles, just because the apostles died or the biblical canon was completed.

God is love. His power to rescue suffering people continues today.

Yes, but this isn’t called miraculous miracles.

 

[TruthDefender]

Neither can I get your point, if there is any. All I'm trying to say is to not worship or weaponize the bible as the only manifestation of God, it's sufficient but not exhaustive, says the bible itself. True belief doesn't come from reading or listening the words of God, but living and experiencing them.

Or maybe you should read more of it:

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
‭‭II Timothy‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Lovette]

Or maybe you should read more of it:

“All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
‭‭II Timothy‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Or maybe you should peruse this very verse - FOR every good work. Doctrine is just doctrine, instruction is just instruction, equipment is just equipment, every good work is done by your two hands, no amount of scripture is gonna do it for you. The difference is laid out in Matt. 23, the condemnation for the scribes and Pharisees, they were the experts of "all Scripture", and yet they were the only ones harshly condemned by Lord Jesus, because they'd done no good work, they prided themselves over others with their scriptural knowledge and authority.

 

[Lovette]

Yes, but this isn’t called miraculous miracles.

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves ... having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! (2 Tim. 4:1-5)

Cessationism is guilty of denying the power of the Holy Spirit, which is THE unforgivable sin.

 

[TruthDefender]

Or maybe you should peruse this very verse - FOR every good work. Doctrine is just doctrine, instruction is just instruction, equipment is just equipment, every good work is done by your two hands, no amount of scripture is gonna do it for you.

Got it, you cherry pick and ignore the rest of Scripture, and discard the example of the Noble Bereans.

The difference is laid out in Matt. 23, the condemnation for the scribes and Pharisees, they were the experts of "all Scripture", and yet they were the only ones harshly condemned by Lord Jesus, because they'd done no good work, they prided themselves over others with their scriptural knowledge and authority.

You are wrong:
“Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22‬:‭29‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭15‬:‭7‬-‭9‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

““O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ””
Matthew‬ ‭23‬:‭37‬-‭39‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[pinebeach]

Neither can I get your point, if there is any. All I'm trying to say is to not worship or weaponize the bible as the only manifestation of God, it's sufficient but not exhaustive, says the bible itself. True belief doesn't come from reading or listening the words of God, but living and experiencing them.

Weaponize the Bible? We are not on the same page. At this point, I do not think you have honestly posted about what you actually believe. The KJV is not the Bible all translators have used as their 'go to' when creating a newer and better translation.

I don't know what you are talking about since you don't address what I actually post but continually manufacture off the wall responses that I am not even going to try to decipher. smh

Done with the exchange. Apparently you operate on a 'need to know' basis which corresponds to your own private beliefs. I understand you will most likely feel the need to respond, but defensiveness and or accusation, is your idea of discussing; it is not mine.

 

[CS1]

Cessation is theology, not mere observation.
It’s a doctrinal conclusion drawn from Scripture’s teaching on the purpose of the apostolic gifts and the sufficiency of the completed canon. History and experience are then interpreted through that lens, they don’t establish it.

that is a false narrative and many of our Cessationism failed to provide biblical support hat the gifts of the Holy Spirit stopped after the Canonization of the bible. 1cor chapter 13:8-10 doesn't say the gift of the Holy Spirit have stopped nor does it say when the bible is completed they are no longer needed. That was false.

 

[Lamar]

You do not think the issue of Cessationism vs Continuationism is central to this debate?

What is central to the OP is the difference between the claims of the Pentecostal movement compared to the claims of the New Testament writers on the issue of physical supernatural manifestations.

If you are wanting to focus on whether claims of supernatural activity are authentic you have a lot of data to sift through - both
(1) historical as well as (2) personal testimony. Instead of doing this, you pre-emptively reject both kinds of evidence.

This is where you are in error.

There is no need to "sift through" historical or personal testimonies in regards to current events.

Example: The local chapter of Habitat for Humanity is building homes for low incomes families.

No need to research, just come visit the worksite and meet the crew and families.

Example: The local Pentecostal church is restoring sight to the blind, the crippled are walking again and the dead are resurrected.

Well we need to study the historical record and search for personal testimonies since we cannot locate those who were healed and resurrected.

Does a passage have to be explicitly referred to if it can be shown to be relevant to the topic at hand....or perhaps we should not draw ANY inferences and focus only on your primary goal of debunking Pentecostalism?

Explicitly?

Of course not but alluring to authentic events in the Bible does not validate modern claims of the Pentecostals.
IOW, because these events happened in the past does not mean that those who claim they are still happening today are correct.

Perhaps next we should turn our attention to the inexcusable wickedness of the Reformers who had been distracted from initial hunger for truth into violent anti-nicene wars against smaller groups who also opposed Catholicism but who had very different doctrines on other matters.

This is mindless mudding up the the issue.

What proves that these events are happening today is for them to be happening today!

Not research or personal testimonies.

 

[Anchorite]

What proves that these events are happening today is for them to be happening today!

Not research or personal testimonies.

So what do you base your Cessationalist doctrine on?

Your opinion, nothing more.

 

[CS1]

So what do you base your Cessationalist doctrine on?

Your opinion, nothing more.

yep that's it LOL and opinion formed in hate of Pentecostals with out any biblical support.

 

[Lamar]

Neither can I get your point, if there is any. All I'm trying to say is to not worship or weaponize the bible as the only manifestation of God, it's sufficient but not exhaustive, says the bible itself. True belief doesn't come from reading or listening the words of God, but living and experiencing them.

You are quite wrong.

Belief comes from the following:

Romans 10:17​

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Experiencing does not bring salvation. Not even experiencing the raising of the dead.

Read the following from Luke 16.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

A faith based on experiences is worldly.

A faith based on that which is not experienced is blessed.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

[CS1]

You are quite wrong.

Belief comes from the following:

Romans 10:17​

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Experiencing does not bring salvation. Not even experiencing the raising of the dead.

Read the following from Luke 16.

And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

A faith based on experiences is worldly.

A faith based on that which is not experienced is blessed.

29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

You are allegorizing Lemar. We all have been given the measure of faith. The faith that comes from hearing the word of God is the conviction of one by the Holy Spirit at the preaching of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This gospel allows one to be saved by Grace through the faith.

 

[Lamar]

So what do you base your Cessationalist doctrine on?

Cessationalism is no more a doctrine then the earth being a globe is a doctrine.

Regardless of what verses the Flat Earth Christians present, the earth is still not flat!

Regardless of what the Pentecostals and their ilk present, the miraculous age of the New Testament is not upon us!

Your opinion, nothing more.

Your insistence that we are living in a continuation of the age of the New Testament (continuationism) is most certainly not a fact but an opinion and a rather foolish opinion as well.

Your opinion has no basis in reality.

When the child of a Pentecostal dies they do not call for a prophet to bring them back to life (Luke 8:49-56) but they call for a mortician.

You and your ilk are willfully blind on this issue.