Believe scripture is not a defense. It is a simple fact and the fact you do not and believe otherwise is your testimony. All hail your opinion I guess
Is cessation an observation or theology?
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Believe scripture is not a defense. It is a simple fact and the fact you do not and believe otherwise is your testimony. All hail your opinion I guess
IOW, you cannot defend your accusation against me. Posts # 902& 904.
Stay on the porch.
I don't spend time on your porch. You called tongues a sin, so live with it. It's your porch, rotting boards and all
You sound like a child saying nah nah nah. 47 pages and you have nothing to say other than you don't believe. Hey ~ I think it is apparent by now. You have done this type of thing many times in this forum, so we understand your approach to parts of scripture. However, that does not change scripture. Your disbelief simply has changed you.
The head of 1.4 Billion Christians claims the perfect guidance of the Holy Spirit on all matters of faith. The fastest growing Christianity on earth has reconnected with the power of the Holy Spirit. The do not all agree about the details and the meaning but they affirm the ongoing manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Those Christian communities that deny an active and powerful Holy Spirit today are in steep decline. Over 5 million Methodists and Baptists have left their churches in the last 15 yrs. and virtually all non-spirit empowered churches are in decline while those of all branches of Christianity that expect to experience the active role of the Holy Spirit in their lives are growing rapidly everywhere in America, South America, Africa and Asia. However. too many of them are also adopting the "Prosperity Gospel" and suffering a "pay for play" false Gospel
Agreed.
It is a generality without context.
I most certainly believe and I am blessed because of my belief without sight. John 20:29
Cannot you say the same?
It seems "your faith" is based upon belief in false claims of physical supernatural manifestations, which is carnal.
Kind of related to this subject, our God is absolutely real, living, Christ in us, Holy spirit with us.
We are not just following a nice philosophical ideas, a nice cause. We are following a living God. If one don't have the real relationship like Jacob with God, Paul with God, Peter with God, then pray earnestly for God to speak to us.
I agree with reform church teaching a lot, but sometimes I felt they are lacking the real relationship for some people. Some people say they following God as if an idea, a cause, an atheist following a set of rules.
Sickness, healing, lost, found.... all is under God, there is no coincidence.
We are not just following a nice philosophical ideas, a nice cause. We are following a living God. If one don't have the real relationship like Jacob with God, Paul with God, Peter with God, then pray earnestly for God to speak to us.
I agree with reform church teaching a lot, but sometimes I felt they are lacking the real relationship for some people. Some people say they following God as if an idea, a cause, an atheist following a set of rules.
Sickness, healing, lost, found.... all is under God, there is no coincidence.
And that changes God how? Once upon a time God destroyed almost all life on earth because it was so evil. Seems that sinners just keep sinning but that does not change one word of truth that God has given to those who put their faith and trust in Him.
You do understand that spiritual truth does not come from the devil? Actual truth is constantly attacked by those who are deceived and choose to believe or disbelieve, neither of which changes anything about God. However, believing scripture explains the current state of this planet.
Now, you are calling ALL Christians everywhere to join in your cause by renouncing all loyalty and even sympathy towards the supposedly ungodly Satanic group who call themselves "Pentecostals" Of course, to be fair, you must include every kind of Continuationists of this "ilk", past and present.
This is the very same attitude that motivated Martin Luther and the other Reformers to purify the Church doctrine and order by rounding up all the trouble-making Anabaptists and Mennonites. To them, it was a matter of standing up for the truth. What is interesting that, out of all the false doctrines people COULD believe, you focus only on people who do not believe that the charismatic gifts have ceased.
Historically, and presently many Christian denominations have not held steadfastly to a position of absolute Cessationism.
John Piper, Wayne Grudem, and D.A. Carson are modern examples of Continuationists who are also Calvinists . Perhaps, while you are reloading, your should take time to take shots at them too - in the interest of fairness.
I understand why you dislike Pentecostal worship. I am not into that sort of thing myself. However, when I lived in Israel and observed how exuberantly the Hasidim danced and celebrated the Torah, I realized that God has no problem with demonstrative celebration which has been a part of Jewish worship since the time of David.
I will ask you again, where did I state such a thing?
Posts 902 and 904.
Here is your chance to defend your accusation.
I will wait for your reply.
It appears you have invented your own (non-standard) idiosyncratic nomenclature in which to couch your propositions like differentiating PHYSICAL supernatural events from NON-PHYSICAL supernatural events. When questioned about this, rather than offering an coherent explanation you employ ad hominems which implythat anyone who does not accept your contradictory remarks is just NOT SPIRITUAL enough to understand it.
This is another iteration of the old scam of the Emperor's New Clothes. The same tactic was used by the Gnostics who claimed to have secret revelation knowledge about the hidden meanings of the Bible that is hidden from the eyes of the unenlightened.
Are we not talking about the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit and whether they continue or have ceased? Why do you posit a premise and then do your best to avoid and evade facing it directly?
It is you who is using the word "Satanic" not I.
The Pentecostals are not performing satanic acts, they are simply frauds or confused.
Yes, some of them are using parlor tricks but others are either following the crowd or swept up in the emotions.
Does Satan enjoy the free help, certainly.
None of this is remotely important to the issue of the claims of physical supernatural manifestations being of the Holy Spirit.
This will not work.
I do not dislike or like Pentecostal worship, this is about the falsehood of their claims and you know it. Stop trying to spin.
The Hasidim dancing is not the issue either. The Hasidim are not claiming their dancing is supernatural but simply done for joy and spiritual unity.
You are simply trying to throw dust in the air with your comments.
It will not work.
It is a mistake to equate all Pentecostals. There are large and serious and incompatible divisions among them. I am not a Pentecostal. However, I recognize that the single form of Christianity that is growing in the world is generally, if inaccurately, called Pentecostal in nature. In 1900 there were about 9 million Christians in all of Africa. Today there are 750 million. There are currently 238 million Christians in North America but many are Pentecostal in nature. Pentecostalism in all its various forms is rapidly replacing Catholicism in Latin America. It makes no difference if you like or don't like the umbrella churches under Pentecostalism but they are now conquering the world. In North America Christianity those identifying as Christian as about 90% in 1900 and 62% today. Generational replacement is a major driving force. Only about 46% of 18- to 24-year-olds identify as Christian, compared to much higher adherence among older demographics.
Approximately 4,000 to 4,500 Protestant churches close in the U.S. annually, based on data through early 2026, with some projections for 2025–2026 warning that up to 15,000 churches could close due to accelerating decline. Key Data and Trends (2025–2026)Net Loss: More churches are closing than opening, resulting in a net loss of thousands of congregations each year. Recent Statistics: In 2024, approximately 4,000 Protestant churches closed, while only 3,800 were started. Projections: Some reports estimate that 15,000 churches could close in 2025 or 2026, which represents roughly 8% of all U.S. churches. Long-Term Forecast: The National Council of Churches has projected that up to 100,000 churches could close in the coming years.
Bottom line, there are real and important reasons why protestant Christianity is failing in North America. There are about 45,000 different Christian denominations. The factors driving young Christians in NA away include:
Issues around ordination of women
Issues around sexual orientation
Issues around conflicts with science and religion
Issues from the general reclusive nature of youngsters away from all social activity (dating, drinking, sex)
Issues from the internet and its powerful influence away from any kind of belief in God
Issues around church splits and animosity with in the Christian community
Issues around the expansion and impact of the prosperity gospel
Issues around hiding sexual and financial crimes within the churches
Issues around the merging of conservative politics with the message of Christ
No, we are talking about if the claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit made by the Pentecostal and their ilk are lies or real.
Please read the OP.
Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit --- he who claims must prove.
Jesus did.
So should the Pentecostals, Charismatics and their sort.
If you read between the lines, Charismatic Christianity is flourishing and "traditional" Protestant Christianity is in rapid decline. Remember Daniel's observation. You are weighed in the balance and found wanting. If the power of the gospel is exploding, it is not by what most non-pentecostals call Christianity. As a non-pentecostal (established 1906 in Los Angeles, Ca) I do not fail to see that the broad coalition of pentecostals are succeeding. Many do not require a Holy Spirit experience i.e. speaking in tongues, visions, new interpretations of the bible etc. Some do. When you look at who are responding to this approach to Christianity it is the poor, the wounded and the desperate. Perhaps, we have little need for more than just a comfortable, undemanding and distant God in our prosperity. The sick, needy and poor are the government's problem not ours. Perhaps we are missing something. Perhaps it's too late for North America. We will just enjoy the ride down the shut to Christian obsolescence.
I have no need of defending the truth. And, that has been covered and demonstrated that you did in fact, ake use of the word sin when describing spiritual gifts that you have zero interest in praying about even though scripture tells us to desire these gifts and pray for the receiving of same.
You demonstrate a great apptitude for rinse and repeat and not much else
Yeah, I hear that a lot. Most often when I attempt to grasp an idea or to challenge an idea. It happens most often when engaging with folks with unexamined but fastly held "truth."
You do not even know what specifically I am referring to as supernatural in my experience.
Thus, you reveal your hostility to any Christian stating that God has done something supernatural in their life.
Carnality is your materialistic philosophy, assuming that God no longer performs any miracles.
Your unbelief in a God who still works in supernatural ways will manifest its results in your life. This is a real shame.
Of course he hadn't. How or when did I suggest that he did commit the unforgivable sin?
Not until the day the Antichrist actually reveals himself and performs such miracles. Until then, works of the Holy Spirit pass the reality check, works of the Antichrist don't.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away (i.e. apostasy, godless rebellion) comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thess. 2:3-8)
And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:21-22)
Lamar continually obfuscates and constinually diverts the discussion back to whether he himself explicitly said something or not. In this way, he can run around in circles and can avoid any genuine discussion of ideas. He does not even define his terms which is usually the first step in engaging on a subject. I have decided that he does not want clarity. He is just playing "catch me if can." Then he gaslights, pretending that there is something wrong with his opponents understanding.