I would like to respond but could you explain the following sentence?
"Cessationism is a theological conclusion because there is no verse that explicitly says the gifts ceased when the canon was completed."
Is cessation an observation or theology?
- Thread starter Lamar
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"Cessationism is a theological conclusion because there is no verse that explicitly says the gifts ceased when the canon was completed."
I never ask someone to perform a physical supernatural manifestation, I simply ask for evidence of their claim of physical supernatural manifestations.
Do you understand the difference?
With so "Many many many" to choose from it should be easy for you to pick.
I am waiting.
I am a "hatful person"? Said the man with a hat for a avatar.
You are truly a silly little man.
BTW, I have never explained away a physical supernatural manifestation in my life. Because no one has ever presented one that can be inspected like the ones done in the New Testament.
Pentecostals just have claims of physical supernatural manifestations.
Why should he bother, given your predisposition to disbelief and the fact that you routinely reject personal testimony as evidence of anything Proverbs 9:8 says: ....don’t bother correcting mockers; they will only hate you. But correct the wise, and they will love you.
"given your predisposition to disbelief"???
disbelief?
I have been a believer in a invisible God since 1984. (Colossians 1:15)
I believe in a supernatural God that I have never seen since I was a teenager. (1st Tim. 1:17)
I have believed the Bible to be the perfect Word of God all of my adult life. (Hebrews 4:12)
I believe that those who have faith (which I consider myself to be) without the need for sight are blessed. (John 20:29)
So pardon me if I find these so called claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit dubious.
Churchgoer will not share his "many many many" experiences of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit because he has none that will mean any more then the claims of your local Mormon.
Mormons, Roman Catholics, and many protestant groups all believe they speak in tongues, and all believe it is God verifying God is working through their church and their core beliefs are correct. I have a book ... somewhere ... and I don't even remember the exact title, but the author made recordings of people "speaking in tongues" and the interpretation given, and took those recordings to people in all the other groups who had interpreters and had them give their interpretations as well. He even took the exact same recordings back to the original interpreters. No one, i9ncluding the original interpreters ever repeated the same interpretation for the same recording twice.
In Mat. 7:23-24, people who believe Jesus is their Lord, God and Savior, who exhibit the exact same signs and wonders the true Christians of the first century possessed, the "Many" vss. 13, 23, are still headed for destruction and will not see life, in spite of their signs and wonders done "In His Name". 2Th. 2:11 explains how this can happen.
Spiritual gifts, according to 1Co. 13:10, will last "Until" the "Perfect" comes. The word "Perfect" is Neuter in gender, this excludes Christ and the Father as both are always masculine. The only (2) neuter "Perfect" things in scripture are the bible and the scriptures. At the time 1st Corinthians was written, it was the earliest manuscript the church still possessed, although there was an earlier letter to the Corinthians, it did not survive.
Throughout chapter 13, the gifts are referred to as the "partial" things, 1Co. 13:9 the "childish" things, 1Co. 13: 11, and those things which result in "seeing dimly" as through a beaten and polished piece of silver 1Co. 13:12. While some people want to believe this refers to the gifts passing away once we are dead, or raptured, and are in heaven, the problem is what will remain "after" the "Perfect" Neuter comes. What will abide, after the gifts pass away/cease is "Faith, Hope and Love". Faith and hope Rom. 8:24 do not exist in heaven. I can say, "When I first married my wife, I saw her dimly as through a beaten and polished piece of silver. After these many years, I now see her face to face." It is a comparison of how great the difference is between having someone prophesy and having the other prophets state whether or not it was accurate or not, and what we will have when the gifts cease/pass away.
Interestingly, the gifts, and the word of God, exist to fulfill the exact same purpose. "For the equipping of the saints for the work of service to the building up of the body of Christ." Eph. 4:12/ "That the man of God may be FULLY equipped for every good work". 2Ti. 3:16-17 In Eph. 4:13 we have another verse where the gifts pass away or cease. The word "until" means to this point and no further. And it covers not only the gifts from 1Co. 13, but those in Eph. 4:11-12 as well.
While many will state that we will never have a "Unity of the Faith" and of "Knowledge of the Son of God" "Until" we are in heaven, 99.9% of those who profess to be "Christian" hold to the same 66 books of the bible as authoritative. Yes, some add a few, and there are a few groups that subtract a few. But I would say that the almost universal acceptance of the 66 books would represent a unity of the faith, and the bible is both perfect and neuter. Also, if anyone is going to reference "Knowledge of the Son of God", this is the only source available to everyone.
The next part is what things are like "after" this "until this point and no further" event occurs. Once we have what is "perfect" and neuter, "as a result" "we are no longer to be tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming." Eph. 4:14 if we still have to worry about being deceived, the trickery of men and craftiness and deceitful scheming, ... in heaven, how is that any different from how things are right now on earth?
Lastly, the oldest New Testament letter we have is 1st Corinthians, we have 2 chapters on gifts. In the next oldest letter, Ephesians, we have 3 verses. Romans one verse. By the time 2 Corinthians comes around, in spite of how much time and effort was spent discussing them in 1st Corinthians, Paul is completely silent. But then, if the gifts were ceasing, or passing away, there is no need to discuss what no longer exists. Besides ... Christians are fully equipped for every good work with the word of God alone.
theological conclusion WITH no support ? First off the context of 1cor 13:8-12 doesn't end in that chapter it end in chapter 14 :40 and begin in chapter 12 at verse one. Paul did not write his letter in chapter and verse. That was added later. how can one call it a theological conclusion with no biblical support contextually.
LOL yes I do have a hat for one don't I? That the best you can do to support the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today, my hat ? I am a silly little man LOL. You will never see what you won't agree with. So its ok. Just continue to be hatful and judge hats LOL . Your Biblical refuting of the text that many have provided and eye witnesses you do not agree, that's ok.
Have a blessed day
Cessationism is not just an observation it is a theological conclusion drawn from observations in Scripture.
It observes that miraculous sign gifts are most prominent in the apostolic era and closely connected to the apostles and the founding of the church.
But the step from that observation to the claim that those gifts have ceased is a theological inference, not an explicit statement found in Scripture.
So it is more accurate to say cessationism is theology based on observation rather than pure observation itself.
I agree with you that Paul didn’t write in chapters and verses, and that 1 Corinthians 12–14 is one connected section about spiritual gifts. That actually strengthens the need to read 13:8–12 in context.
But that doesn’t really address the main point I was making.
When I said “theological conclusion,” I wasn’t saying it has no biblical basis. I was pointing out that the idea “the gifts ceased at canon completion” is not explicitly stated in Scripture. It’s inferred from a theological framework that tries to connect certain texts and historical conclusions.
So the real question is not whether Scripture speaks about gifts (it clearly does in 1 Corinthians 12–14), but whether Scripture ever directly identifies canon completion as the stopping point. That specific link still has to be argued, not assumed.
On 1 Corinthians 13, I also agree it sits inside the broader argument of chapters 12–14. The disagreement is about what event Paul is pointing to in 13:10–12—whether “the perfect” refers to the completed canon, the mature church, or Christ’s return. Each view is an interpretation of the same passage, which is why Christians land differently on cessationism.
So I’m not saying “no biblical support exists,” I’m saying “the support is interpretive, not explicit,” which is why it’s fair to call it a theological conclusion rather than a direct statement.
Churchgoer is a woman
get that first. God never struck you sick?
God never healed you?
God never tell you place to go?
God never bring people into your life?
God never provide financial need for you?
God never give you a vision?
God never answered your prayer?
You never prayed to the living God?
...
.
I notice that you use the term "gifts of the Holy Spirit" but the OP uses the term "physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit".
Do you consider these terms to be the same?
Many speak of the 7 gifts of the Holy Spirit as the following:
Wisdom
Understanding
Counsel
Fortitude
Knowledge
Piety
Fear of God
This list is usually referred from Isaiah 11:1-3.
What the OP is speaking of are the physical supernatural manifestations that were happening in the New Testament such as:
Healings
Raising the dead
Tongues
Interpreting tongues
Giving sight to the blind
etc.
The OP is about the claims of today's Pentecostals and their inability to explain the lack of basic prima facie to their claims.
It's a simple premise.
You and Lamar seem to be talking about two different subjects.
Apparently, whatever group Lamar belongs to sees conversion as merely adopting an ideology, philosophy, or joining a religious movement. Otherwise, why would he be so incredulous about an individual having a personal supernatural encounter with God?
Did Jesus not come to start a new religion or to seek and save PEOPLE who are lost? Here is what He said:
1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
(John 10:1-4)
Everything in this passage points us to Christ Himself. It also reveals His desire to have a personal living encounter with Him that will cause us to be born again and become His sheep. Though Lamar speaks disparagingly of your salvation experience challenging you to reveal to the whole room exactly what happened so he can invite them into his mockery. However, he carefully avoids revealing anything about his own experience. He wants to be the interrogator who has the right to question but not to be questioned by anyone.
The term used in the Bible is "spiritual gifts" Should we not prefer to use this term rather than neologisms?
The primary reference about NT spiritual gifts is not so much Isaiah as the prophecy of Joel which was cited by Peter in the first great spiritual outpouring: And afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on My menservants and maidservants, I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
(Joel 2:28-29 Acts 2:16-18)
Even more specific was the Paul's description of the spiritual gifts and his advise about how to use them in 1 Corinthians 12
Are all supernatural manifestations of the Spirit physical?
This is the same tactic used by the Left wing media to keep certain ideas from being examined. They do it by controlling language and by introducing new language which seems to support their claims. This is the basis of a lot of double talk in this forum such as:
I believe in every supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit (while holding secretly that that such a thing does not exist)
This sort of double-talk, double-think is a way to SEEM open minded while being completely closed. I think it is deceptive.
.
The ultimate issue is still Cessationism vs Continuationism it is not about what Pentecostals do. Apparently, it also has little to do with the orthodoxy of most Pentecostal Churches. If a Christian dogmatically that God no longer intervenes miraculously in the lives of people. then surely prayer is of no more efficacy than tossing pennies in a wishing well
You are absolutely 100% correct. to a point. I could not call it a theological from a Biblical perspective when it is unbiblical. It should be rejected. Therefore, as Biblical Christianity from the word of God where we build our Theology from must be contextual and truth. Cessationism tried to force in a Biblical interpretation that was never there. Yet in the same breath tried to accuse Pentecostals of doing the something.
No. God has never made me supernaturally sick, that I am aware of.Churchgoer is a woman
God never struck you sick?
God never healed you?
God never tell you place to go?
God never bring people into your life?
God never provide financial need for you?
God never give you a vision?
God never answered your prayer?
You never prayed to the living God?
...
.
No. God has never supernaturally healed me, that I am aware of.
No. God has never spoken to me before, that I would remember and shared with others.
On the question of God putting someone in my life, maybe.
No. God has never given me money, at least not directly. But I did recently win an office pool, probably luck. (Eccl. 9:11)
No. I have never been given a vision by God, that I would remember and shared with others.
Yes, but not in a supernatural way.
Yes, I pray to a living and invisible God everyday.
Let us remember the Providence of God is and always has been active.
I seek the blessing God has granted those who believe without the need for supernatural proof. (John 20:29)
I suggest you do the same.
Now that I have answered all of your questions, how about you stop ignoring my request that you share the "many many many" personal experiences with God.
The phrase “gift of healing” is actually a misnomer. The healing itself is the gift, not a transferable power residing in a person. Scripture consistently presents the Holy Spirit as the direct cause of every act of restoration: He heals when He wills, for reasons grounded in His own purposes, not because someone possesses a healing ability. During the apostolic era, these healings functioned as “signs of an apostle”—public demonstrations that authenticated their unique, foundational ministry. In other words, the miracle was God’s act, the apostles were the instruments, and the healing itself was the Spirit’s sovereign gift.
this why you lack understanding of healing and miracles. The human body has been created to heal as God made it to be.
You break a leg one just has to position it and it will heal.
Healing means being restored to its natural intention of use as God created that was a supernatural intervention FYI.
God did that for us all.
It is sin that caused the body to get sick and die which is not saved . That is why we die a physical death. Those without Christ are dead spiritually. It takes the Spirit of God through the work of the Cross to give eternal life John 3:16-18 Romans 10:9-11.
No one has said we need "for supernatural proof." That is your words here in this setting none of us have said that which makes you false also.
WE have all the proof needed. You just are not listening because of your hate and bias.
WE have healing by God and see it in what is Known as General Revelation = in God Creation Romans chapter 1
We have Healing by God in what see in HIS Special Revelation = Word of God
We have Healing by GOD in a relationship with HIS Son = Salvation , Saved which is Sozo = salvation, healing and deliverance
Jesus taught this in Mark 16, Luke 10, Matt chapter 6 that we can ask for what GOD does in Prayer , intercession, supplication.
Matthew 7:7-11, Matthew 18:19-20, James chapter 5,
Prayer is the key we are to pray without ceasing, pray for others in faith. Ask, knock, and seek. We are to exercises our faith Luke 10.
WE are to desire and seek the gifts of the Holy Spirit for the betterment of all the body. 1cor chapter 12- chapter 14.
You fail to see that why?
Great answer but you lack any biblical reference to support your claim. I agree to those who are ignorant as you are, I'm it is sure hard to follow. I do not need your pity.