Is cessation an observation or theology?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
No. God has never made me supernaturally sick, that I am aware of.
No. God has never supernaturally healed me, that I am aware of.
No. God has never spoken to me before, that I would remember and shared with others.
On the question of God putting someone in my life, maybe.
No. God has never given me money, at least not directly. But I did recently win an office pool, probably luck. (Eccl. 9:11)
No. I have never been given a vision by God, that I would remember and shared with others.
Yes, but not in a supernatural way.
Yes, I pray to a living and invisible God everyday.

Let us remember the Providence of God is and always has been active.

I seek the blessing God has granted those who believe without the need for supernatural proof. (John 20:29)
I suggest you do the same.

Now that I have answered all of your questions, how about you stop ignoring my request that you share the "many many many" personal experiences with God.
God struck me sick the same way God broke Jacob s leg. Many times, in order to teach me a lesson from God.
God healed me the same way he healed the woman who touched His robe, after trusting God, put faith in Jesus.
God led me to wonderful place in my life, directing my path, the same way He led Joseph to Egypt.
God brought me to meet important people in my life, time , place all calculated by God, the same way Jesus met the woman in the well.
God answered my prayers the same way He answered Hanna. Many big miracles.
God provided me the same way He provided the widow in Elijah story, before and after putting faith in God.

Many , many , many.
To the atheist people, they say there is no God. But to true Christians, we see God's actions in everyday life. If it is not allowed by God, 2 sparrows will not fall on ground. Even the number of hair on people head, God creates, counts, and takes away.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Anchorite
Great answer but you lack any biblical reference to support your claim. I agree to those who are ignorant as you are, I'm it is sure hard to follow.
No one needs a biblical reference to refute something that is not happening.

"I agree to those who are ignorant as you are, I'm it is sure hard to follow." What is this???

You being a silly little man does not excuse you of such poor writing skills.

I do not need your pity.
You most certainly do.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: BillG
No one needs a biblical reference to refute something that is not happening.

"I agree to those who are ignorant as you are, I'm it is sure hard to follow." What is this???

You being a silly little man does not excuse you of such poor writing skills.


You most certainly do.
nope not at all.
 
The phrase “gift of healing” is actually a misnomer. The healing itself is the gift, not a transferable power residing in a person. Scripture consistently presents the Holy Spirit as the direct cause of every act of restoration: He heals when He wills, for reasons grounded in His own purposes, not because someone possesses a healing ability. During the apostolic era, these healings functioned as “signs of an apostle”—public demonstrations that authenticated their unique, foundational ministry. In other words, the miracle was God’s act, the apostles were the instruments, and the healing itself was the Spirit’s sovereign gift.
I was using the other poster's terminology. I realize that is one interpretation of gifts of healing.
 
You are absolutely 100% correct. to a point. I could not call it a theological from a Biblical perspective when it is unbiblical. It should be rejected. Therefore, as Biblical Christianity from the word of God where we build our Theology from must be contextual and truth. Cessationism tried to force in a Biblical interpretation that was never there. Yet in the same breath tried to accuse Pentecostals of doing the something.
I appreciate your response. My point isn't that cessationism has no biblical arguments, but that the specific claim that the gifts ceased when the canon was completed is not explicitly stated in Scripture. It's a conclusion reached through interpretation.

That's why I think it's fair to call it a theological conclusion, even if someone believes it's the correct one.

I would also be cautious about saying cessationists "forced" an interpretation into the text. Many sincere Christians believe their view comes from Scripture. The real debate is whether passages like 1 Corinthians 13 actually teach cessation, not whether people are trying to be biblical.

At minimum, I think we can agree that no verse explicitly says the gifts ceased when the canon was completed. That conclusion has to be argued from the text rather than directly quoted from it.
 
I appreciate your response. My point isn't that cessationism has no biblical arguments, but that the specific claim that the gifts ceased when the canon was completed is not explicitly stated in Scripture. It's a conclusion reached through interpretation.

That's why I think it's fair to call it a theological conclusion, even if someone believes it's the correct one.

I would also be cautious about saying cessationists "forced" an interpretation into the text. Many sincere Christians believe their view comes from Scripture. The real debate is whether passages like 1 Corinthians 13 actually teach cessation, not whether people are trying to be biblical.

At minimum, I think we can agree that no verse explicitly says the gifts ceased when the canon was completed. That conclusion has to be argued from the text rather than directly quoted from it.
amen. Here is an issue that many of the other side do not consider. What is known as the Silent years or dark ages when GOD did not speak nor was there any great noticed supernatural intervention. God did not speak for four hundred year from Malachi to the birth of John. Was the Sprit of God removed? The Period of the Judges God did not speak after what the Danites did. 336 years until Samuel. If God is alive and his nature is unchanged can God make himself known if HIS people cry out to him? Even if there was hundreds of year where he did not speak? From what we see in the word of GOD he did just that. Was the time of the church age that entered the dark age due to sin? Was not the reformation a move of God to return to the word of GOD? After 130 years from the middle ages of the church to the Reformation. Did healing stop completely? or Salvations? Was not the canon already done by this time? Yet Calvin and Luther both noticed Moves of the Spirit, with utterances, healings and moving of the Holy Spirit.

If this is known why do some assist That God can do or not do based on faith an those who cry out to him.

Every move of God recorded down in Church history started by prayer. Everyone.
 
The phrase “gift of healing” is actually a misnomer. The healing itself is the gift, not a transferable power residing in a person. Scripture consistently presents the Holy Spirit as the direct cause of every act of restoration: He heals when He wills, for reasons grounded in His own purposes, not because someone possesses a healing ability. During the apostolic era, these healings functioned as “signs of an apostle”—public demonstrations that authenticated their unique, foundational ministry. In other words, the miracle was God’s act, the apostles were the instruments, and the healing itself was the Spirit’s sovereign gift.
1) I agree with your conclusion that the gift of healing is not a transferable power
2) Neither is it a divine ability to confer healing on anyone at any time the "possessor of the gift" chooses
3) If that had been the case, do we not think the Apostle Paul would have "healed" his beloved Epaphroditis and Timothy?
4) Sometimes, God has a purpose in what we are going through. Even though Paul believed in divine healing and deliverance when he prayed to be delivered from his thorn in the flesh. God denied his request Afterward, God revealed the purpose his suffering would serve in his life
5) This explains why Paul did not use the term THE GIFT OF HEALING. Instead, he described the GIFTS OF HEALING (plural)
6) The POWER to heal comes directly from the Holy Spirit,
the RECIPIENT of the gift is not a "healer" but rather the individual who needs healing
The AGENT that delivers this gift TO the person did not have to be ecclesiastically appointed to that office. He just had to be a
member of the Body of Christ familiar with being led of the Spirit
7) Exactly HOW such a messenger delivered the healing to the needy individual was very often different. How we are to go about it will be revealed by the Spirit
8) This shows that the messenger also needed to have wisdom, insight and discernment.
9) Sometimes, healing took place as James described it:

14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil
in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up.
If he has sinned, he will be forgiven
.…(James 5:14-15)
James did not say it HAD to happen this way but, obviously, it was ONE way he was familiar with.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Roger316
"given your predisposition to disbelief"???
Unbelief does not always pertain to believing the basic truth propositions of the faith. While this is necessary walking by the Spirit involves also how we conduct ourselves and make decisions and in our daily lives. Paul told us to "walk in the Spirit" and, that if we do this we will not fulfill the desires of the flesh. He did not say that if we try hard not to fulfill the desires of the flesh we would automatically walk in the Spirit.

The Bible calls the Holy Spirit the Parakletos, the One who is called along side to help us give us counsel and direction. This name implies that we have a relationship with Him and that He is able to communicate with us. This is also what is entailed by the word fellowship. People cannot have fellowship with the UNKNOWN God who dwells in the furthest reaches of the star-strewn Universe. Of course, many times people THINK they are being guided by the Spirit when they are actually being led by their natural mind and emotions and possibly even the demons.

According to Paul all Christians must learn to walk in the Spirit (in a way that agrees with the Scriptures). The disciples were often overcome by stressful circumstances and became terrified, When Jesus rebuked them for their unbelief He was not talking about what they knew theologically. We was rebuking them for their failure to connect what they knew to what they were going through circumstantially
disbelief?

I have been a believer in a invisible God since 1984. (Colossians 1:15)
I believe in a supernatural God that I have never seen since I was a teenager. (1st Tim. 1:17)
I have believed the Bible to be the perfect Word of God all of my adult life. (Hebrews 4:12)
I believe that those who have faith (which I consider myself to be) without the need for sight are blessed. (John 20:29)
When the Bible says we are to walk by faith not by sight I think it referring to going by how things appear to be to the natural mind.
It does not mean we should not use common sense, nor does it mean we are to be guided by "signs" Signs can be deceptive.
So pardon me if I find these so called claims of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit dubious.
Paul told us to "prove all things, hold fast to that which is good." The word also says "believe not every spirit but to test them"
If we go on to reject every possible miracle before we have looked into it - or without conclusive evidence that too is an error. John Fletcher who was a Pastor under John Wesley said there was a ditch on both sides of the road.
Churchgoer will not share his "many many many" experiences of physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit because he has none that will mean any more then the claims of your local Mormon.
You doubt if you know exactly what he thinks. Perhaps you should ask for clarification instead of comparing him to a follower of Joseph Smiths demonic religion. I myself have refrained from sharing with you testimonies from my own experience because I figure you have already made up your mind on that subject and would only respond with ridicule and mockery. I imagine Churchgoer feels the same way.
 
Merely believe it as a fact is not enough, the devil believes God, knowing Jesus is son of God, knowing salvation every thing, but devil do not accept Jesus as Lord.

That is the difference.

Jesus can't be our savior unless He is our Lord. The Lordship, the covenant, seals the salvation.
 
I appreciate your response. My point isn't that cessationism has no biblical arguments, but that the specific claim that the gifts ceased when the canon was completed is not explicitly stated in Scripture. It's a conclusion reached through interpretation.

That's why I think it's fair to call it a theological conclusion, even if someone believes it's the correct one.

I would also be cautious about saying cessationists "forced" an interpretation into the text. Many sincere Christians believe their view comes from Scripture. The real debate is whether passages like 1 Corinthians 13 actually teach cessation, not whether people are trying to be biblical.

At minimum, I think we can agree that no verse explicitly says the gifts ceased when the canon was completed. That conclusion has to be argued from the text rather than directly quoted from it.

I have not found any of the Early Church Father who even hinted at the Completed Canon explanation. I think this was an ad hoc explanation intended to prove something which, at the time, was not an issue.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Anchorite
amen. Here is an issue that many of the other side do not consider. What is known as the Silent years or dark ages when GOD did not speak nor was there any great noticed supernatural intervention. God did not speak for four hundred year from Malachi to the birth of John. Was the Sprit of God removed? The Period of the Judges God did not speak after what the Danites did. 336 years until Samuel. If God is alive and his nature is unchanged can God make himself known if HIS people cry out to him? Even if there was hundreds of year where he did not speak? From what we see in the word of GOD he did just that. Was the time of the church age that entered the dark age due to sin? Was not the reformation a move of God to return to the word of GOD? After 130 years from the middle ages of the church to the Reformation. Did healing stop completely? or Salvations? Was not the canon already done by this time? Yet Calvin and Luther both noticed Moves of the Spirit, with utterances, healings and moving of the Holy Spirit.

If this is known why do some assist That God can do or not do based on faith an those who cry out to him.

Every move of God recorded down in Church history started by prayer. Everyone.
The “silent years” refer mainly to the absence of new prophetic Scripture, not total inactivity by God. Cessationism doesn’t claim God is inactive or never answers prayer today. He still works powerfully through providence, the Word, and prayer. It simply holds that the foundational sign gifts (apostolic miracles, tongues, prophecy for new revelation) ceased once the canon was complete and the church established.

Calvin and Luther were largely cessationist and viewed claimed ongoing miracles with skepticism. The key debate is whether Scripture teaches these gifts would continue as the norm until Christ returns.
 
The “silent years” refer mainly to the absence of new prophetic Scripture, not total inactivity by God. Cessationism doesn’t claim God is inactive or never answers prayer today. He still works powerfully through providence, the Word, and prayer. It simply holds that the foundational sign gifts (apostolic miracles, tongues, prophecy for new revelation) ceased once the canon was complete and the church established.

Calvin and Luther were largely cessationist and viewed claimed ongoing miracles with skepticism. The key debate is whether Scripture teaches these gifts would continue as the norm until Christ returns.

A point I've tried to make also many times that falls on deaf ears 👂

Cessationists don't say God doesn't do miracles, doesn't answer prayers.. but the particular gifts for certain times have fulfilled their job.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TrustandObey
The “silent years” refer mainly to the absence of new prophetic Scripture, not total inactivity by God. Cessationism doesn’t claim God is inactive or never answers prayer today. He still works powerfully through providence, the Word, and prayer. It simply holds that the foundational sign gifts (apostolic miracles, tongues, prophecy for new revelation) ceased once the canon was complete and the church established.

Calvin and Luther were largely cessationist and viewed claimed ongoing miracles with skepticism. The key debate is whether Scripture teaches these gifts would continue as the norm until Christ returns.
IF the divine Nature of God is Healer, Saviour, and Deliverer. Why would they ever stop?
 
  • Like
Reactions: BillG
I am a "hatful person"? Said the man with a hat for a avatar.

You are truly a silly little man.

BTW, I have never explained away a physical supernatural manifestation in my life. Because no one has ever presented one that can be inspected like the ones done in the New Testament.

Pentecostals just have claims of physical supernatural manifestations.
The Pharisees said the something after hearing the testimony of those who were healed. It ok Lamar. You are safe with no experience.
I will tell you lack the ability to win and argument even with me who can't spell. LOL. That makes you even more foolish. I have a handicap.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BillG
The Bible says nothing about time limits on miracles, healing, or other gifts. “Sign gifts” is an unbiblical phrase.

People still get sick. God still heals.
This OP is about the lack of validity toward modern claims of the miraculous.

No one is claiming that miracles cannot happen. The issue is are these particular claims real.

Do people still get sick? Yes
Does God still heal? Yes
Does this prove the claims of the Pentecostals and their sort are true? No.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wattie
A point I've tried to make also many times that falls on deaf ears 👂

Cessationists don't say God doesn't do miracles, doesn't answer prayers.. but the particular gifts for certain times have fulfilled their job.
They are so invested in the claims of the Pentecostals they will not listen or believe what is right before their own eyes.

They know these claims are beyond dubious but the truth means little when defending your own tribe.
 
I have not found any of the Early Church Father who even hinted at the Completed Canon explanation. I think this was an ad hoc explanation intended to prove something which, at the time, was not an issue.
It was "not an issue" because people were not so blind as to accept such dubious claims.

There have always been Simon Magus followers but not to the degree as they are today.
 
It was "not an issue" because people were not so blind as to accept such dubious claims.

There have always been Simon Magus followers but not to the degree as they are today.
A. What is the source of this fictional narrative? Did you learn it from your Church or did you just invent it whole cloth out of your own imagination? The ECF not only believed in the spiritual gifts, they reported that they were ONGOING during their lifetime which was in the first two centuries. That this was indeed their belief is plain from their own writings

B. Justin Martyr (approx. AD 100-165), who was perhaps the most important 2nd century apologist, was especially clear about the operation of gifts in his day. Speaking to the Jews he wrote:
“For the prophetical gifts remain with us, even to the present time. And hence you ought to understand that [the gifts] formerly among your nation have been transferred to us. And just as there were false prophets contemporaneous with your holy prophets, so are there now many false teachers amongst us, of whom our Lord forewarned us to beware; so that in no respect are we deficient, since we know that He foreknew all that would happen to us after His resurrection from the dead and ascension to heaven”
(Dialogue with Trypho, ch.39).
Justin Martyr was given this name because he was MARTYRED after daring to teach the gospel in the capital city of Rome.

C. Irenaeus of Lyons (approx. AD 120-202), was certainly the most important and influential theologian of his century wrote:
“Wherefore, also, those who are in truth His disciples, receiving grace from Him, do in His name perform [miracles], so as to promote the welfare of other men, according to the gift which each one has received from Him. For some do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe [in Christ], and join themselves to the Church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come: they see visions, and utter prophetic expressions. Others still, heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and they are made whole. Yea, moreover, as I have said, the dead even have been raised up, and remained among us for many years. And what shall I more say? It is not possible to name the number of the gifts which the Church, [scattered] throughout the whole world, has received from God, in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and which she exerts day by day for the benefit of the Gentiles, neither practicing deception upon any, nor taking any reward from them [on account of such miraculous interpositions]. For as she has received freely from God, freely also does she minister [to others]”
(Against Heresies, Book 2, ch.32, 4).


D. Both Justin Martyr and Irenaeus were well aware that the Devil sometimes performed supernatural works but, unlike you, they did not conflate the activity of the Holy Spirit with that of the Devil. Of course, since you did not even attempt to prove your case, your accusation amounts to nothing but a gratuitous assertion. Has it not occurred to you that the same case could have been leveled against the works of the Apostles since they were contemporaneous with Simon Magus?

E. In fact, the Jews did attribute Jesus works to that of Satan:
…23 The crowds were astounded and asked, “Could this be the Son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, Only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, does this man drive out demons.”
(Matthew 12:23-24)
Tell me, does your Church cast out demons as Jesus and the Apostles did or is this a part of the scriptures which you have declared to be obsolete?

F.Another early heretic, Marcion, claimed that his cult also manifested the spiritual gifts. Tertullian rebuked him, contrasting what they did with the works of the Spirit that were going on in the Church:
“Let Marcion then exhibit, as gifts of his god, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; . . . Now all these signs (of spiritual gifts) are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty, and they agree, too, with the rules, and the dispensations, and the instructions of the Creator”
(Against Marcion, v.8, ANF, 3:446-47).

It is obvious from what you have said here that you totally ignorant of the history of the Church and, what is more, have no interest in learning about anything that runs counter to the position of your Church.