Is cessation an observation or theology?

[biblestudent78]

What drives the assumption that all Christians experience the same relationship with God? After all we agree to disagree on virtually every dogma, doctrine, creed, catechism and statement of faith. Is it possible that one who expects a "Holy Ghost Experience" and experiences it and one who denies a "Holy Ghost Experience" is possible doe not experience it? Is God in a box? Does He read our creeds and covenants and then attempts to live and love by them? Or is God big enough to be experienced in many ways by many cultures and many beliefs? Exactly how big is your God? How easily does He fit into your dogma box?

 

[Lamar]

that is simply not true. You're a liar. The buffoonery you display in this setting is nothing new with you. Your just a hateful angry person.


"The Pentecostals and their sort are not raising the dead, they are not giving sight to the blind, their glossolalia is not real languages and they are certainly not healing the lame.

Your above comment proves you are very much ignorant of the word of GOD.

So the Pentecostals and their sort are raising the dead, they are giving sight to the blind, their glossolalia is real languages and they are certainly healing the lame.

And you call me a liar, hateful, angry and a buffoon. Well then.

Now I understand why the roofs of the Pentecostal Churches are always needing to be replaced.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

This is what I wrote:

"This miraculous event went on for decades until God caused it to cease without warning."

It is the "without warning" that is paramount to the issue of miracles ceasing.

People here are insisting that there must be a specific verse stating when tongues were to cease.

This is an assumption, the early Hebrews were given no warning that this miraculous function was to cease.

They just woke up one morning and noticed the manna ceased. They did not insist that God should have given them a warning.

Why is this so very hard for you to grasp?

Acknowledging that the claims of the Pentecostals are false does not mean Christianity is false.

Don't flatter yourself. What you said is not hard to grasp, it is just wrong. I know it is wrong because the Lord Jesus already told us what the manna signified when He explained it to the disciples a very long time ago. No doubt you are frustrated that you cannot find scriptures which tell us exactly WHEN the spiritual gifts will cease. This does not give you the right to co-op other scriptures whose meaning has already been explained to us by Jesus. The fact that you can say one scripture looks similar to another does not make it a valid INTERPRETATION. Similarity is not equivalence.

Appending your ideas to a passage does not change the meaning it has traditionally been understood to mean. You say the Jews were "given no warning the manna would cease" and, that since this reminds you of something that was said in another passage (about the Spiritual gifts) this justifies you in importing that meaning of one verse into another unrelated passage. This is how the Gnostics used to 'interpret' the scriptures in order to smuggle their ideas into the scriptures.

Acknowledging that the claims of the Pentecostals are false does not mean Christianity is false.
Your method of interpreting scripture through EISEGESIS is what is false because that is not what Christ said. Your willingness to superimpose your own ideas on the text shows that you are willing to subjugate the meaning of scriptures to some personal battle of yours with a particular denomination.

 

[biblestudent78]

So the Pentecostals and their sort are raising the dead, they are giving sight to the blind, their glossolalia is real languages and they are certainly healing the lame.

And you call me a liar, hateful, angry and a buffoon. Well then.

Now I understand why the roofs of the Pentecostal Churches are always needing to be replaced.

Let me start by stating clearly I am not, as far as I know, a Pentecostal...whatever that means. There are over 700 distinct Pentecostal Churches globally comprising between 300 million to 600 million people. These are divided between charismatic and neo-charismatic. Both are trinitarian, practice baptism in the Holy Spirit. Together they comprise 27% of all non-Catholic Christians. Key US churches include the Church of God and the Church of God in Christ. The Church of God in Christ is primarily a black church. Both are experiencing rapid growth in the global south, Africa and Asia. IMHO, although I do not believe that a baptism of the Holy Spirit is a "requirement." I do not deny the living experience of those who do. What offends me more the "my dogma vs your dogma" with vindictiveness that comes naturally to some Christ followers.

It has been my experience that the most vituperative among us are locked into a vertical religion of personal salvation where Jesus reigns as their savior. However, by attitude alone it indicates He is not your Lord. The Lordship of Jesus is all about the lived experiences of those converted, redeemed and loved who care deeply about sharing that kind of love and mission with all who believe and all who need to come to faith.

 

[CS1]

So the Pentecostals and their sort are raising the dead, they are giving sight to the blind, their glossolalia is real languages and they are certainly healing the lame.

And you call me a liar, hateful, angry and a buffoon. Well then.

Now I understand why the roofs of the Pentecostal Churches are always needing to be replaced.

NO Pentecostals do not raise the dead. GOD Does. No Pentecostals do not give sight to the blind, if we could you would see miracle's. God opens blind eyes. Yes the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are real and for today as 1cor chapter 12 through 14 says.

That is why you are also ignorant. You think Pentecostal do those things when it is GOD in the person who does it. Apart from GOD we can do nothing.


Yes you are a liar. and you are hateful. And display buffoonery. No you do not understand the root of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Or Pentecostalism.

 

[TrustandObey]

Let me start by stating clearly I am not, as far as I know, a Pentecostal...whatever that means. There are over 700 distinct Pentecostal Churches globally comprising between 300 million to 600 million people. These are divided between charismatic and neo-charismatic. Both are trinitarian, practice baptism in the Holy Spirit. Together they comprise 27% of all non-Catholic Christians. Key US churches include the Church of God and the Church of God in Christ. The Church of God in Christ is primarily a black church. Both are experiencing rapid growth in the global south, Africa and Asia. IMHO, although I do not believe that a baptism of the Holy Spirit is a "requirement." I do not deny the living experience of those who do. What offends me more the "my dogma vs your dogma" with vindictiveness that comes naturally to some Christ followers.

It has been my experience that the most vituperative among us are locked into a vertical religion of personal salvation where Jesus reigns as their savior. However, by attitude alone it indicates He is not your Lord. The Lordship of Jesus is all about the lived experiences of those converted, redeemed and loved who care deeply about sharing that kind of love and mission with all who believe and all who need to come to faith.

If you read the OP the issue is not a "my dogma vs your dogma".

What is happening here is a group of people who are insisting that physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit like those of the time during the New Testament are still happening today.

Simply put, this group is asserting that because no one can present a verse that explicitly states the date of when these abilities ceased then they have the right to claim that these events never stopped and that they are going on right under our noses.

If you read just a few of these posts you will easily see this.

The OP is about the observation or lack of observation of these claims of physical supernatural manifestations. The "Lordship of Jesus" must be based on truth not a obvious lie.

Lamar is correct, there is a reason that the roofs of the Pentecostal church buildings are not being pulled apart and it is not dogma.

 

[TrustandObey]

Okay, I get that this is your personal opinion but Simon Magus and Simon Peter did not disagree about whether the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit was ongoing Denial of this is what you believe. The two Simons knew it was continuing. Their disagreement had to do with motive. Simon Magus thought of God's power as a commodity which, if he possessed it, would bring him power and money.

Of course, many people from EVERY Christian denomination are, from time to time, corrupted by such things. However, your wholesale condemnation of every last member of the Pentecostal Church for believing God intervenes supernaturally, categorically includes every Continuationist, past and present, because of this you cannot arbitrarily narrow the focus of this discussion to just modern Pentecostals and Charismatics.

Your belief in Cessationism does not come from anything explicitly stated in scripture but from the conclusions of theologians who lived centuries after the fact. These traditions were passed down to you from them. Though you profess to believe the written scriptures but it is they which affirm God's willingness to act on our behalf even if it means transcending nature.

James, goes as far as to tell us this:
Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15 And the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick. The Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven.…
(James 5:14-15)
Does your Church practice this? Do you see the results James saw or is it just a ritual?

I believe that the physical supernatural manifestations of the New Testament era have ceased because obviously they have. This is why the blind today do not go to Pentecostal churches to be healed. This is why families don't call prophets when a loved one dies but a mortician.

You are quite correct, I do not believe that the physical supernatural manifestations of the New Testament have ceased because of any "explicitly stated" verse. I also don't believe that the Earth is flat and I don't need a "explicitly stated" verse to prove this. So regardless of what flat earth Christians insist, the Earth is not flat.

JimiSurvivor, think about that. Your reasoning is the same as flat earth Christians.

 

[biblestudent78]

I believe that the physical supernatural manifestations of the New Testament era have ceased because obviously they have. This is why the blind today do not go to Pentecostal churches to be healed. This is why families don't call prophets when a loved one dies but a mortician.

You are quite correct, I do not believe that the physical supernatural manifestations of the New Testament have ceased because of any "explicitly stated" verse. I also don't believe that the Earth is flat and I don't need a "explicitly stated" verse to prove this. So regardless of what flat earth Christians insist, the Earth is not flat.

JimiSurvivor, think about that. Your reasoning is the same as flat earth Christians.

It is interesting to me as these issues boil up to the surface that many who know only their own dogma insist that is it is the "only" faithful explanation for their groups faith. Yet, tens of thousands of Christian congregations worldwide disagree on many of the things you claim to know for sure. Games of inverted logic, "what abouts" "I never experience it" "no evidence (that I accept)" We prefer to fight other Christ followers instead of the sin in our own lives. We show no innate understanding of God's grace. Our theologies do not provide forgiveness of sin when we use "righteously" them as a club as if we are God's army punishing sin. We are not. If your personal encounter with Jesus does not leave you eternally humble than your encounter failed you. The same love you need for eternal life is the love you reject in other Christ followers who differ from your dogmas.

It is my hope in this innocuous forum that there are Christ followers who know they don't know everything and know we don't live out what we claim to believe. This should bring some humility, introspection and candor. If not here, where?

The sad reality that underlies all our "absolutes" is that what you believe is largely a factor of geography and luck. If you are born in pre-21st century America, you become a Christian often as part of a Christian family, Protestant or Catholic. If you are born in Mexico and anywhere in South America, you are a Catholic. If you are born in the mideast you are a muslim. If you are born in south Asia you are hindu. If you are born in east asia you are Buddhist, Taoist or Shinto. etc.

As American Christ followers we should feel like we are the luckiest population on earth, but we do not act like that. Jesus said that by this shall all people know you are my disciples, if you love each other. So when your devotion to your dogmas and pretend godlike understanding of His Word demands retribution, insult and dehumanization of other Christ followers keep in mind if you form of religion does not require love, the apostle Paul say you are just making noise. If love is not the primary characteristic of your heart, mind and soul, what valid claim can you make for the easy way we heap contempt on other Christ followers who are as constrained by their inherited theology as you?

This is a great place to reason together and share with confidence the hope that lies within us remade daily in the image of Jesus. Our common knee jerk reaction is to attack when something strange crosses our path. It only illustrates that many of us are insecure because in our heart of hearts we know we do not know the breathe or width or the depth of the Love of God for all.

 

[Lamar]

It is interesting to me as these issues boil up to the surface that many who know only their own dogma insist that is it is the "only" faithful explanation for their groups faith. Yet, tens of thousands of Christian congregations worldwide disagree on many of the things you claim to know for sure. Games of inverted logic, "what abouts" "I never experience it" "no evidence (that I accept)" We prefer to fight other Christ followers instead of the sin in our own lives. We show no innate understanding of God's grace. Our theologies do not provide forgiveness of sin when we use "righteously" them as a club as if we are God's army punishing sin. We are not. If your personal encounter with Jesus does not leave you eternally humble than your encounter failed you. The same love you need for eternal life is the love you reject in other Christ followers who differ from your dogmas.

It is my hope in this innocuous forum that there are Christ followers who know they don't know everything and know we don't live out what we claim to believe. This should bring some humility, introspection and candor. If not here, where?

The sad reality that underlies all our "absolutes" is that what you believe is largely a factor of geography and luck. If you are born in pre-21st century America, you become a Christian often as part of a Christian family, Protestant or Catholic. If you are born in Mexico and anywhere in South America, you are a Catholic. If you are born in the mideast you are a muslim. If you are born in south Asia you are hindu. If you are born in east asia you are Buddhist, Taoist or Shinto. etc.

As American Christ followers we should feel like we are the luckiest population on earth, but we do not act like that. Jesus said that by this shall all people know you are my disciples, if you love each other. So when your devotion to your dogmas and pretend godlike understanding of His Word demands retribution, insult and dehumanization of other Christ followers keep in mind if you form of religion does not require love, the apostle Paul say you are just making noise. If love is not the primary characteristic of your heart, mind and soul, what valid claim can you make for the easy way we heap contempt on other Christ followers who are as constrained by their inherited theology as you?

This is a great place to reason together and share with confidence the hope that lies within us remade daily in the image of Jesus. Our common knee jerk reaction is to attack when something strange crosses our path. It only illustrates that many of us are insecure because in our heart of hearts we know we do not know the breathe or width or the depth of the Love of God for all.

What does this have to do with the issue at hand???

Do you even care about addressing the OP?

What does "dogmas" or "geography and luck" have to do with this issue?

Are you trolling? If not please stick with the OP, if you are I will ignore you.

Let me know.

 

[biblestudent78]

What does this have to do with the issue at hand???

Do you even care about addressing the OP?

What does "dogmas" or "geography and luck" have to do with this issue?

Are you trolling? If not please stick with the OP, if you are I will ignore you.

Let me know.

What is the "issue at hand"? You seem to believe it is a dialectic. A or B. I contend that the very nature of how we discuss A or B is a sign of our much bigger concept of salvation by grace through faith and a life demonstrating the the living water of love and humility.

The original question was about what we observe and condemn based on our dogma. If we "see" someone experiencing what they define as the baptism of the Holy Spirit but otherwise are Christ followers, you seem to be intent on condemning them as "imposters."

That attitude would have condemned the early Church as there was no A vs B. There was a vastly wide understanding of Christianity. It was only after the Church was captured by the Roman Government that Rome decided what was and was not "official" doctrine but the baptism of the Holy Spirit was not debunked to the degree that those claiming it were otherwise compliant with the Church/Roman Government.

In 380AD Christianity was the captive of the Roman government and mandatory for all Christians. At that point many Christ followers were co-opted under the control of the Roman Government. What the government said was valid Christianity was "official" Christianity.

Those claiming baptism of the Holy Spirit which injected human experience over Roman rule were either "re-educated" or put to death. Inside the early Roman dominated Church fathers began to distinguish between water baptism and the visible outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Our very earliest description of pre-Roman domination of Christianity is a document called the Didache dated from the very late 1st century or the very early 2nd century. On the subject of "Prophetic Utterance" it says that "every prophet who speaks in "the Spirit" should not be tested or judged" emphasizing that "the Holy Spirit operates through the spoken word." It emphasises the serious spiritual nature of water baptism. Empathizing that candidates for water baptism must be instructed in "The way of life" and the teaching of the Apostles.

Modern Pentecostalism began on the now famous Azusa Street revival of 1906. Earlier evangelist Charles Fox Parham began the idea that speaking in tongues was a definitive spiritual evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit at Bethel Bible College in 1901. Out is this movement came the vast number of believes numbering hundreds of million in 2025.

As the Pentecostals of all stripes focus on experience, time will tell if the impact of the broader Christian Church and their interpretation of the scriptures and their ecclesiastical hierarchy will prevail. Pentecostalism in the Catholic Church range from 72% in Panama to 14% in Uruguay.

 

[CS1]

What is the "issue at hand"? You seem to believe it is a dialectic. A or B. I contend that the very nature of how we discuss A or B is a sign of our much bigger concept of salvation by grace through faith and a life demonstrating the the living water of love and humility.

The original question was about what we observe and condemn based on our dogma. If we "see" someone experiencing what they define as the baptism of the Holy Spirit but otherwise are Christ followers, you seem to be intent on condemning them as "imposters."

That attitude would have condemned the early Church as there was no A vs B. There was a vastly wide understanding of Christianity. It was only after the Church was captured by the Roman Government that Rome decided what was and was not "official" doctrine but the baptism of the Holy Spirit was not debunked to the degree that those claiming it were otherwise compliant with the Church/Roman Government.

In 380AD Christianity was the captive of the Roman government and mandatory for all Christians. At that point many Christ followers were co-opted under the control of the Roman Government. What the government said was valid Christianity was "official" Christianity.

Those claiming baptism of the Holy Spirit which injected human experience over Roman rule were either "re-educated" or put to death. Inside the early Roman dominated Church fathers began to distinguish between water baptism and the visible outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

Our very earliest description of pre-Roman domination of Christianity is a document called the Didache dated from the very late 1st century or the very early 2nd century. On the subject of "Prophetic Utterance" it says that "every prophet who speaks in "the Spirit" should not be tested or judged" emphasizing that "the Holy Spirit operates through the spoken word." It emphasises the serious spiritual nature of water baptism. Empathizing that candidates for water baptism must be instructed in "The way of life" and the teaching of the Apostles.

Modern Pentecostalism began on the now famous Azusa Street revival of 1906. Earlier evangelist Charles Fox Parham began the idea that speaking in tongues was a definitive spiritual evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit at Bethel Bible College in 1901. Out is this movement came the vast number of believes numbering hundreds of million in 2025.

As the Pentecostals of all stripes focus on experience, time will tell if the impact of the broader Christian Church and their interpretation of the scriptures and their ecclesiastical hierarchy will prevail. Pentecostalism in the Catholic Church range from 72% in Panama to 14% in Uruguay.

the context of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit also known as the empowering of the Church was over 2000 years ago at Pentecost seen in Acts chapter two. It is what Jesus said in Acts 1:8 and Luke 24:49 and John chapter 14 through 15.

Azusa Street was not Charles Parham leadership movement . it was over seen by Rev. Seymour an Black Minster. Charles came later to Azusa. The documented speaking in tongues was in 1890.

 

[biblestudent78]

the context of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit also known as the empowering of the Church was over 2000 years ago at Pentecost seen in Acts chapter two. It is what Jesus said in Acts 1:8 and Luke 24:49 and John chapter 14 through 15.

Azusa Street was not Charles Parham leadership movement . it was over seen by Rev. Seymour an Black Minster. Charles came later to Azusa. The documented speaking in tongues was in 1890.

You are correct. Parham led the Church of God movement and Rev Seymour led the Azusa Street movement which became the Church of God in Christ. He was a black man and the son of former slaves. He was blind in one eye and led a movement that met daily for up to 8hrs at time.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

I believe that the physical supernatural manifestations of the New Testament era have ceased because obviously they have. This is why the blind today do not go to Pentecostal churches to be healed. This is why families don't call prophets when a loved one dies but a mortician.

(a). So you reject the notion that God still might do miracles because you have not PERSONALLY witnessed any
(b) NOT because of anything Jesus, the Apostles or the scriptures have said on the subject.
(c). Your basis of what is true and real is, therefore, ONLY what we perceive with our senses and reason with our natural minds
(d). Going by this criteria, you have no reason to believe anything superntual at all including: the NEW BIRTH, the transformation of the inner soul through the action of the Holy Spirit, and our being led by the Spirit in our daily lives

14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are FOOLISHNESS to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man judges [descerns] all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment.…(1 Corinthians 13:10-14)

(e) Next you make some bald assertions for which you offer no proof like:
This is why the blind today do not go to Pentecostal churches to be healed.
Do you KNOW for a fact that no blind person ever seeks prayer to regain their sight? I am not going to limit my focus to the Pentecostal denomination. Rather, let us extend this to include every group which has ever believed in Continuationism past and present (since it is certain that no blind person, would go to Cessationists with such a prayer since they already deny such things.

(f) The basis of our faith is not supposed to be our traditions but the word of God. Paul's teaching on the Charismata is written in
Let us examine what the Apostle had to say said about whether God still operates in what Paul called the 9 spiritual gifts.

1 Corinthians 13:8:
As for prophecies, they will pass away;
as for tongues, they will cease; as for
knowledge, it will pass away.

The Apostle Paul tells us the same thing about each of the three gifts he addresses in this verse:
prophesy WILL pass away Verb - Future Indicative Passive
tongues WILL cease and Verb - Future Indicative Middle
(words of) knowledge WILL pass away Verb - Future Indicative Passive

In each of these sentences the word WILL is used to indicate that the action [of ceasing and passing away] is in the FUTURE
He did not say, they HAD ceased or that they WERE CEASING already or even that they would VERY SOON CEASE
He said only that they WOULD cease at some time IN THE FUTURE.

You are quite correct, I do not believe that the physical supernatural manifestations of the New Testament have ceased because of any "explicitly stated" verse. I also don't believe that the Earth is flat and I don't need a "explicitly stated" verse to prove this. So regardless of what flat earth Christians insist, the Earth is not flat.

I think we should rely first and foremost on the scriptures to determine what is real and true and what is not.

Characterising someone's belief as being equivalent to believing in a flat earth does not prove anything. You just pulled that out of the air because you have no scriptural evidence to support your views. It is no different than a Materialist calling demons mental illness and Jesus casting them out a primitive superstition.

 

[Thaddeus]

(a). So you reject the notion that God still might do miracles because you have not PERSONALLY witnessed any
(b) NOT because of anything Jesus, the Apostles or the scriptures have said on the subject.
(c). Your basis of what is true and real is, therefore, ONLY what we perceive with our senses and reason with our natural minds
(d). Going by this criteria, you have no reason to believe anything superntual at all including: the NEW BIRTH, the transformation of the inner soul through the action of the Holy Spirit, and our being led by the Spirit in our daily lives

14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are FOOLISHNESS to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man judges [descerns] all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment.…(1 Corinthians 13:10-14)

(e) Next you make some bald assertions for which you offer no proof like:
This is why the blind today do not go to Pentecostal churches to be healed.
Do you KNOW for a fact that no blind person ever seeks prayer to regain their sight? I am not going to limit my focus to the Pentecostal denomination. Rather, let us extend this to include every group which has ever believed in Continuationism past and present (since it is certain that no blind person, would go to Cessationists with such a prayer since they already deny such things.

(f) The basis of our faith is not supposed to be our traditions but the word of God. Paul's teaching on the Charismata is written in
Let us examine what the Apostle had to say said about whether God still operates in what Paul called the 9 spiritual gifts.

1 Corinthians 13:8:
As for prophecies, they will pass away;
as for tongues, they will cease; as for
knowledge, it will pass away.

The Apostle Paul tells us the same thing about each of the three gifts he addresses in this verse:
prophesy WILL pass away Verb - Future Indicative Passive
tongues WILL cease and Verb - Future Indicative Middle
(words of) knowledge WILL pass away Verb - Future Indicative Passive

In each of these sentences the word WILL is used to indicate that the action [of ceasing and passing away] is in the FUTURE
He did not say, they HAD ceased or that they WERE CEASING already or even that they would VERY SOON CEASE
He said only that they WOULD cease at some time IN THE FUTURE.



I think we should rely first and foremost on the scriptures to determine what is real and true and what is not.

Characterising someone's belief as being equivalent to believing in a flat earth does not prove anything. You just pulled that out of the air because you have no scriptural evidence to support your views. It is no different than a Materialist calling demons mental illness and Jesus casting them out a primitive superstition.

By and large there may be more a more positive attitude generally to miracles outside of the internet rather than on it.
I read ''I believe in miracles by Kathryn Khulman

For a ''miracle'' to be placed in her book it had to pass the following criteria:
Two doctors/surgeons who had dealings with the person had to testify to their former illness
The medical records had to be released
There was no reoccurence of the illness for five years since the healing took place.

I will only mention one here. A woman riddled with cancer was taken to one of her meetings on a stretcher and laid out at the edge of the platform from which she was speaking. Doctors only gave her a few weeks left to live. She walked out of the meeting cured of her cancer

 

[CS1]

(a). So you reject the notion that God still might do miracles because you have not PERSONALLY witnessed any
(b) NOT because of anything Jesus, the Apostles or the scriptures have said on the subject.
(c). Your basis of what is true and real is, therefore, ONLY what we perceive with our senses and reason with our natural minds
(d). Going by this criteria, you have no reason to believe anything superntual at all including: the NEW BIRTH, the transformation of the inner soul through the action of the Holy Spirit, and our being led by the Spirit in our daily lives

14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are FOOLISHNESS to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man judges [descerns] all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment.…(1 Corinthians 13:10-14)

(e) Next you make some bald assertions for which you offer no proof like:
This is why the blind today do not go to Pentecostal churches to be healed.
Do you KNOW for a fact that no blind person ever seeks prayer to regain their sight? I am not going to limit my focus to the Pentecostal denomination. Rather, let us extend this to include every group which has ever believed in Continuationism past and present (since it is certain that no blind person, would go to Cessationists with such a prayer since they already deny such things.

(f) The basis of our faith is not supposed to be our traditions but the word of God. Paul's teaching on the Charismata is written in
Let us examine what the Apostle had to say said about whether God still operates in what Paul called the 9 spiritual gifts.

1 Corinthians 13:8:
As for prophecies, they will pass away;
as for tongues, they will cease; as for
knowledge, it will pass away.

The Apostle Paul tells us the same thing about each of the three gifts he addresses in this verse:
prophesy WILL pass away Verb - Future Indicative Passive
tongues WILL cease and Verb - Future Indicative Middle
(words of) knowledge WILL pass away Verb - Future Indicative Passive

In each of these sentences the word WILL is used to indicate that the action [of ceasing and passing away] is in the FUTURE
He did not say, they HAD ceased or that they WERE CEASING already or even that they would VERY SOON CEASE
He said only that they WOULD cease at some time IN THE FUTURE.



I think we should rely first and foremost on the scriptures to determine what is real and true and what is not.

Characterising someone's belief as being equivalent to believing in a flat earth does not prove anything. You just pulled that out of the air because you have no scriptural evidence to support your views. It is no different than a Materialist calling demons mental illness and Jesus casting them out a primitive superstition.

Outstanding Biblical exegesis. I would like to also add if I may that 1 Cor chapter 13:10


10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

The context of this verse has been taught to mean the coming of the lord. Not the canonization of the bible. Every Church father and interpretation of this text has meant that.
The word of God did not become perfect IT IS Perfect. Jesus is the hope to come Not the bible. We have the word of God long before the Canonization. Our Great hope is Christ return.

 

[Anchorite]

Lamar is correct, there is a reason that the roofs of the Pentecostal church buildings are not being pulled apart and it is not dogma.

Lamar is wrong.

Pentecostalism: Growing at 2.2% per year, this remains the fastest-growing religious movement worldwide, and is projected to exceed one billion adherents globally by 2050.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

I believe that the physical supernatural manifestations of the New Testament era have ceased because obviously they have. This is why the blind today do not go to Pentecostal churches to be healed. This is why families don't call prophets when a loved one dies but a mortician.

You are quite correct, I do not believe that the physical supernatural manifestations of the New Testament have ceased because of any "explicitly stated" verse. I also don't believe that the Earth is flat and I don't need a "explicitly stated" verse to prove this. So regardless of what flat earth Christians insist, the Earth is not flat.

JimiSurvivor, think about that. Your reasoning is the same as flat earth Christians.

I believe that the physical supernatural manifestations of the New Testament era have ceased because obviously they have. This is why the blind today do not go to Pentecostal churches to be healed. This is why families don't call prophets when a loved one dies but a mortician.

(a). So you reject the notion that God still might do miracles because you have not PERSONALLY witnessed any
(b). NOT because of anything Jesus, the Apostles or the scriptures have said on the subject.
(c). This shows that you decide what is true and real is, ONLY what you perceive with your senses and what seems logical to your natural minds. This is how all worldly-minded people think.
(d). According to this thinking, you have no reason to believe anything supernatural at all including: the NEW BIRTH, the transformation of the inner soul through the action of the Holy Spirit, and our being led by the Spirit in our daily lives. As the Bible says:

14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are FOOLISHNESS to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man judges [discerns] all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment.…(1 Corinthians 13:10-14)

(e) Next you make some bald assertions for which you offer no proof. For instance, you say:
This is why the blind today do not go to Pentecostal churches to be healed.
Do you KNOW for a fact that no blind person ever seeks prayer to regain their sight? I am not going to limit my focus to the Pentecostal denomination. Rather, let us extend this to include every group which has ever believed in Continuationism past and present. Of course what is almost certain is that that no blind person, would go to a Cessationists with such a prayer request since they already deny such phenomena exist.

(f) The basis of our faith is not supposed to be our traditions or even our own experiences but the word of God.

(g) Paul's teaching on the Charismata is written in 1 Corinthians 12-13. Obviously you think this passage is anachronistic and irrelevant to modern Christians.

(h). Now, just for fun, let us examine what the Apostle had to say said about the 9 spiritual gifts.

1 Corinthians 13:8:
As for prophecies, they will pass away;
as for tongues, they will cease; as for
knowledge, it will pass away.

The Apostle Paul tells us the same thing about each of the three gifts he addresses in this verse:
prophesy WILL pass away Verb - Future Indicative Passive
tongues WILL cease and Verb - Future Indicative Middle
(words of) knowledge WILL pass away Verb - Future Indicative Passive

In each of these sentences the word WILL is used to indicate that the ACTION [of ceasing and passing away] is in the FUTURE
He did not say, they HAD ceased or that they WERE CEASING already or even that they would VERY SOON CEASE
He said only that they WOULD at some time IN THE FUTURE.
The question is when that time would be and what would be the other conditions of that time

You are quite correct, I do not believe that the physical supernatural manifestations of the New Testament have ceased because of any "explicitly stated" verse. I also don't believe that the Earth is flat and I don't need a "explicitly stated" verse to prove this. So regardless of what flat earth Christians insist, the Earth is not flat.

(i). I think we should rely first and foremost on the scriptures to determine what is real and true and what is not. You are apparently willing to accept as your source of truth the theological formulations of men who lived hundreds or even thousands of years after the fact. When Jesus was challenged did He consult the scribes and Pharisees opinions? No, He based His teaching on what was written. Evidently you do not feel compelled to follow His example.

(j) Characterising someone's belief as being equivalent to believing in a flat earth does not prove anything. You just pulled that out of the air because you lacked scriptural evidence to support your views. It is no different than a Materialist calling demons mental illness and Jesus casting them out a primitive superstition.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

If you read the OP the issue is not a "my dogma vs your dogma".

What is happening here is a group of people who are insisting that physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit like those of the time during the New Testament are still happening today.

Simply put, this group is asserting that because no one can present a verse that explicitly states the date of when these abilities ceased then they have the right to claim that these events never stopped and that they are going on right under our noses.

Your views are also based on dogma - not the doctrines of the ancient Church but that of latter day theologians like Conyers Middleton (AD 1683-1750) and B. B. Warfield (AD 1851-1921). These came up with the idea of Cessationism a millenia after the scriptures were written. These two men were heavily influenced by the Matrialistic Rationalism of Enlightenment philosophy which rejected the transcendent supernaturalism of the Bible.

Of the two, Warfield was somewhat more conservative since, at least, he believed the miraculous revelations and works God did under both the Old and New Covenants. What he DENIED was that miracles occurred AFTER the time of the Apostles.
Middleton, who is generally believed to be a closet Deist denied any activity of the Holy Spirit and undermined the written record of God's activity altogether. He was one of those who are sometimes referred to as "modern theologians."

One Christian teacher who was saved, had living faith, saw real movements of God that brought multitudes to Christ was
John Wesley. Wesley (1636–1678) was a contemporary of Conyers Middleton (1683-1750) and greatly opposed the quasi-Deistic ideas of Middleton. You can still read Wesley's points in the open letter he published. I doubt if you would even attempt doing that since your mind has become so fixed on Cessationism that you are no longer able to listen to anyone who suggests that God might still be answering their prayers. Indeed, you have become so polarized that you cannot tolerate anyone who make such claims.

If you read just a few of these posts you will easily see this.

The OP is about the observation or lack of observation of these claims of physical supernatural manifestations. The "Lordship of Jesus" must be based on truth not a obvious lie.

You pose this as a legitimate challenge while selectively excluding all evidence (past and present) that God still intervenes in the natural world. The Bible calls this predjudice using an unjust scale. On one hand, you present yourself as a reasonable individual willing to consider the facts. In reality, you have already barracaded yourself behind Cessationism and treat Continuationists (who believe in Jesus and the Faith) with contempt as if we were heathens.

Lamar is correct, there is a reason that the roofs of the Pentecostal church buildings are not being pulled apart and it is not dogma.

It sounds like you and Lamar are the ones whose dream of demolishing Pentecostal Church buildings. Martin Luther felt the same way about groups like the Anabaptists who taught differently than he did. In that case, he and the other Reformers actually did go on a crusade against them, demolishing their meeting places and punishing all who would not submit.

You have a form of contemptuous arrogance that assumes everything you believe is OBVIOUS (or should be) to everyone and that anyone who DISAGREES with your view is either totally ignorant of the facts or simply not intelligent enough to comprehend your view. At the same time, you cloud the real BIBLICAL issues using straw man versions of other people's views, labelling them as flat-earthers whether this chacterization has any basis in reality or not does not matter. You apparently feel justified in throwing any accusation or comparison you wish without reference to what is true. Of course this is much easier to do than having to listen and understand what they really do believe.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

By and large there may be more a more positive attitude generally to miracles outside of the internet rather than on it.
I read ''I believe in miracles by Kathryn Khulman

For a ''miracle'' to be placed in her book it had to pass the following criteria:
Two doctors/surgeons who had dealings with the person had to testify to their former illness
The medical records had to be released
There was no reoccurence of the illness for five years since the healing took place.

I will only mention one here. A woman riddled with cancer was taken to one of her meetings on a stretcher and laid out at the edge of the platform from which she was speaking. Doctors only gave her a few weeks left to live. She walked out of the meeting cured of her cancer

I used to listen to Kulman when I was a boy. I agree that she had an overly dramatic way of speaking which I later discovered, was in part due to a speech impediment she had when she was younger. She reportedly learned to overcome it by over-enunciating her words. Be that as it may, I do not think a person's mannerisms should be the basis for judging them. Judging people by their appearance is the very opposite of DISCERNMENT. Also I tend to assume that a person being controlled by a demon would make every attempt to appear as plausible as possible.

You are right that Kuhlman only included testimonies in her books that had met the standards of being a legitimate medical miracle. I have read some of those books and this was always the criteria they used for selecting which testimonies to include in the books they recommended and distributed. Usually, when interviewing those who claimed to have been healed Kuhlman would ask: "And I did
even know you were there, did I?" attempting to de-emphasize her part in the miracle that had happened. When the Longs tried to debunk her they always seemed to lack ammunition so they always ended up going back to mannerisms.

 

[Lamar]

(a). So you reject the notion that God still might do miracles because you have not PERSONALLY witnessed any
(b) NOT because of anything Jesus, the Apostles or the scriptures have said on the subject.
(c). Your basis of what is true and real is, therefore, ONLY what we perceive with our senses and reason with our natural minds
(d). Going by this criteria, you have no reason to believe anything superntual at all including: the NEW BIRTH, the transformation of the inner soul through the action of the Holy Spirit, and our being led by the Spirit in our daily lives

14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are FOOLISHNESS to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man judges [descerns] all things, but he himself is not subject to anyone’s judgment.…(1 Corinthians 13:10-14)

(e) Next you make some bald assertions for which you offer no proof like:
This is why the blind today do not go to Pentecostal churches to be healed.
Do you KNOW for a fact that no blind person ever seeks prayer to regain their sight? I am not going to limit my focus to the Pentecostal denomination. Rather, let us extend this to include every group which has ever believed in Continuationism past and present (since it is certain that no blind person, would go to Cessationists with such a prayer since they already deny such things.

(f) The basis of our faith is not supposed to be our traditions but the word of God. Paul's teaching on the Charismata is written in
Let us examine what the Apostle had to say said about whether God still operates in what Paul called the 9 spiritual gifts.

1 Corinthians 13:8:
As for prophecies, they will pass away;
as for tongues, they will cease; as for
knowledge, it will pass away.

The Apostle Paul tells us the same thing about each of the three gifts he addresses in this verse:
prophesy WILL pass away Verb - Future Indicative Passive
tongues WILL cease and Verb - Future Indicative Middle
(words of) knowledge WILL pass away Verb - Future Indicative Passive

In each of these sentences the word WILL is used to indicate that the action [of ceasing and passing away] is in the FUTURE
He did not say, they HAD ceased or that they WERE CEASING already or even that they would VERY SOON CEASE
He said only that they WOULD cease at some time IN THE FUTURE.



I think we should rely first and foremost on the scriptures to determine what is real and true and what is not.

Characterising someone's belief as being equivalent to believing in a flat earth does not prove anything. You just pulled that out of the air because you have no scriptural evidence to support your views. It is no different than a Materialist calling demons mental illness and Jesus casting them out a primitive superstition.

You are certainly struggling with the term "physical supernatural manifestations". This is quite obvious.

I can think of no other reason for your conclusions other than your ignorance to this term.

1st Corinthians 13:8 has nothing to do with what Trust and Obey is writing about.

Again, you are either unable or unwilling to understand the meaning of "physical supernatural manifestations". I strongly suggest that you cease commenting on this thread since your assertions are rather childish.

There is something about this term that is going over your head. May I suggest you ask a third neutral party the meaning of a "physical supernatural manifestation".

This is how Google defines the term:

A physical supernatural manifestation is an event where an intangible spiritual, divine, or paranormal entity (like a ghost, demon, or deity) interacts with the material world. It bridges the gap between the spiritual and physical realms, producing observable, tangible, or measurable phenomena that defy known laws of nature.

JimiSurvivor, please educate yourself.