Is cessation an observation or theology?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Inquisitor:
These are the events of the Great Bronze Age Collapse on which the bible is silent. My contention is that it was written centuries laters and much later redacted and edited without any awareness of the impact the GBAC on their history.

Paleobotanists have determined that during the 150-year period beginning in 1250 – 1100 the entire region of the eastern Mediterranean began a prolonged drought. The temperatures were lower and while there may have been adequate rains in 3 out of 10 years, it was not enough to support the economies of the time. In virtually every society, towns and small city-states and their economies were dependent on the local production of agriculture and trade.

For instance, the most important tools and weapons of this period were made of bronze. Cypress was the center of cooper mining while other societies specialized in pottery, jewelry, ship building, fish, dyes, textiles and tin. When the underlying agriculture failed, it started to topple the social system everywhere.

Due to widespread wars and near universal starvation, great movements of people looking for relief occurred. Seafaring people from Europe and the western Mediterranean moved eastward. Great inland cities were destroyed never to be rebuilt. Settled cities, towns and hamlets across the entire Levant were attacked and destroyed. Scores of settlements in Canaan were burned during some part of the bronze age century collapse. The term bronze age is used because shortly after the eastern Mediterranean recovered, iron replaced bronze technology. The Hittite culture that invented the use of iron disappeared during the bronze age collapse.

Just prior to the bronze age collapse in Egypt, they launched a military campaign against rebellious Canaanite city-states in 1206BC. Pharoah Merneptah recorded his military exploits on a “stele” which is a tall stone monolith. On that stele, he claims to have exterminated many city-states as well as the seed of “Israel.” This is the first recorded name of Israel outside the Hebrew Bible. His wording indicates he defeated a nomadic people (tribe (s)) not a city, a town or a kingdom.

Importantly, from a Hebrew Bible perspective, is the fact that dominant rule of Egypt over the city-states of Canaan subsided as Egypt recalled their resources from Canaan to help in their 30-year long battle with invading people from the sea during the bronze age collapse. By the turn of the year 1100, Canaan was finally relatively free to evolve its own future but was never free of Egyptian cultures that believed Canaan was their land.

Another result of the relocation of populations is the arrival of various western cultures. The Egyptians placed some of their mercenary defenders, probably sea people, on the northern coast to provide protection from that direction. These were western Mediterranean people. Later, they became known to the Hebrews as “the Philistines.” Their numbers accumulated slowly over perhaps a few centuries. They brought with them their culture including their foods, ways of cooking, languages, building technology, beliefs and social organization. They were a vassal of Egypt and sometime served as a military force in service of the Egyptian administration of Israel and Judah. Eventually, they occupied five city-states, though not at the same time, that controlled a major part of the travel route connecting Africa with Asia and Europe called the Via Maris. The cities of the Philistines were Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gaza, Ekron, and Gath.

These hugely important historical realities that directly impacted young Israel are absent in the Hebrew Bible.
 
My question is, were signs and wonders part of Jesus' work? If do then there's no argument for cessationism.

In Mark 6:5 indicates that Jesus was limited in performing miracles in his hometown due to the people's unbelief. This is echoed in Matthew 13:58, where it is noted that He did not perform many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

They walk in unbelief so they need not concern themselves with seeing miracles.

According to their faith it will be done unto them!
 
These are the events of the Great Bronze Age Collapse on which the bible is silent. My contention is that it was written centuries laters and much later redacted and edited without any awareness of the impact the GBAC on their history.

Paleobotanists have determined that during the 150-year period beginning in 1250 – 1100 the entire region of the eastern Mediterranean began a prolonged drought. The temperatures were lower and while there may have been adequate rains in 3 out of 10 years, it was not enough to support the economies of the time. In virtually every society, towns and small city-states and their economies were dependent on the local production of agriculture and trade.

For instance, the most important tools and weapons of this period were made of bronze. Cypress was the center of cooper mining while other societies specialized in pottery, jewelry, ship building, fish, dyes, textiles and tin. When the underlying agriculture failed, it started to topple the social system everywhere.

Due to widespread wars and near universal starvation, great movements of people looking for relief occurred. Seafaring people from Europe and the western Mediterranean moved eastward. Great inland cities were destroyed never to be rebuilt. Settled cities, towns and hamlets across the entire Levant were attacked and destroyed. Scores of settlements in Canaan were burned during some part of the bronze age century collapse. The term bronze age is used because shortly after the eastern Mediterranean recovered, iron replaced bronze technology. The Hittite culture that invented the use of iron disappeared during the bronze age collapse.

Just prior to the bronze age collapse in Egypt, they launched a military campaign against rebellious Canaanite city-states in 1206BC. Pharoah Merneptah recorded his military exploits on a “stele” which is a tall stone monolith. On that stele, he claims to have exterminated many city-states as well as the seed of “Israel.” This is the first recorded name of Israel outside the Hebrew Bible. His wording indicates he defeated a nomadic people (tribe (s)) not a city, a town or a kingdom.

Importantly, from a Hebrew Bible perspective, is the fact that dominant rule of Egypt over the city-states of Canaan subsided as Egypt recalled their resources from Canaan to help in their 30-year long battle with invading people from the sea during the bronze age collapse. By the turn of the year 1100, Canaan was finally relatively free to evolve its own future but was never free of Egyptian cultures that believed Canaan was their land.

Another result of the relocation of populations is the arrival of various western cultures. The Egyptians placed some of their mercenary defenders, probably sea people, on the northern coast to provide protection from that direction. These were western Mediterranean people. Later, they became known to the Hebrews as “the Philistines.” Their numbers accumulated slowly over perhaps a few centuries. They brought with them their culture including their foods, ways of cooking, languages, building technology, beliefs and social organization. They were a vassal of Egypt and sometime served as a military force in service of the Egyptian administration of Israel and Judah. Eventually, they occupied five city-states, though not at the same time, that controlled a major part of the travel route connecting Africa with Asia and Europe called the Via Maris. The cities of the Philistines were Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gaza, Ekron, and Gath.

These hugely important historical realities that directly impacted young Israel are absent in the Hebrew Bible
Your entire argument assumes that because the Hebrew Bible doesn’t narrate the Late Bronze Age Collapse, it must have been written “centuries later” by authors unaware of it, but that’s a category mistake: the Bible is not a Near Eastern macro‑history textbook, it is a covenantal narrative focused on Israel’s theological identity, not on the climatological, metallurgical, or migratory dynamics of 1250–1100 BC. The absence of GBAC reportage is not evidence of late composition; it is evidence of literary intent — the same reason Homer doesn’t narrate the collapse of Hatti and the same reason Egyptian texts don’t explain the fall of Mycenae.
Your paleobotany summary is interesting, but irrelevant: Israel’s emergence as a hill‑country population fits the archaeological picture after Egyptian withdrawal, which is exactly what the biblical narrative presupposes in Judges — a landscape of fragmented city‑states, not imperial oversight. Merneptah’s stele doesn’t prove late authorship; it proves Israel existed as a socioethnic entity by 1208 BC, which is perfectly compatible with early biblical tradition. And your claim that “hugely important historical realities” are absent from the Hebrew Bible only proves you’re expecting the Bible to function like Bronze_Age_Annals instead of the theological history it actually is; the text is silent because its purpose is covenant, not climatology, and your reconstruction only collapses because you’re forcing the Bible to answer questions it never set out to address.
 
Your entire argument assumes that because the Hebrew Bible doesn’t narrate the Late Bronze Age Collapse, it must have been written “centuries later” by authors unaware of it, but that’s a category mistake: the Bible is not a Near Eastern macro‑history textbook, it is a covenantal narrative focused on Israel’s theological identity, not on the climatological, metallurgical, or migratory dynamics of 1250–1100 BC. The absence of GBAC reportage is not evidence of late composition; it is evidence of literary intent — the same reason Homer doesn’t narrate the collapse of Hatti and the same reason Egyptian texts don’t explain the fall of Mycenae.
Your paleobotany summary is interesting, but irrelevant: Israel’s emergence as a hill‑country population fits the archaeological picture after Egyptian withdrawal, which is exactly what the biblical narrative presupposes in Judges — a landscape of fragmented city‑states, not imperial oversight. Merneptah’s stele doesn’t prove late authorship; it proves Israel existed as a socioethnic entity by 1208 BC, which is perfectly compatible with early biblical tradition. And your claim that “hugely important historical realities” are absent from the Hebrew Bible only proves you’re expecting the Bible to function like Bronze_Age_Annals instead of the theological history it actually is; the text is silent because its purpose is covenant, not climatology, and your reconstruction only collapses because you’re forcing the Bible to answer questions it never set out to address.
OMC:
I am not making any "argument." Thus, I have my "entire argument is wrong" is not a logical statement but one driven by the discord of having a "sacred" narrative that once was not a sacred and not a narrative.

If my recounting of history is errant, then make the case my understanding of history is wrong. The perspective I am asserting is that the Hebrew Bible for many appears to be a historical document. My point is that it is a theological document, that as such, succeeds very well.

One can both appreciate the Hebrew Bible narrative where the the head of the Divine Council "El" is eventually given the domain of Canaan. Where He was known and worshipped as El for generations. EL was given specifically, by the Divine Council, ownership of the geographic territory of Canaan. It was Canaan until when Jacob "wrestled all night with God" (Angel??) and thus the land EL ruled became known as Israel, the land who "wrestles with their God El." Is is only centuries later in the Moses narrative, does Canaanite God El reveal that His real name is YHWH. Historically EL existed under a number of different names including: Eloah, Elohim, EL Shaddai, Ehyeh (I am or I will be), Tzevaot.

IMHO, it is impossible to read the Hebrew Bible without a clear attempt by many authors to recount history in the form of "current events" of their time. Read Judges.

If your assertion of that "Israel" existed as a socio ethnic entity by 1,208, which I agree with, it does not imply that they were not "wiped out" and their "seed destroyed" by the same quotation we both know established where was no polity, no geographic hedgeonomy and no ownership of land. The Egyptian inscription depict them as a people group equivalent to a tribe or pastoralists.

In the big picture, my understanding of all available data, is that Canaanites became Israelites. There is no legitimate historic evidence of millions of foreigners (escapees from Egypt) to a land that housed regiments of Egyptian soldiers. Those led by Moses carried vast treasures given them by the Egyptians before the left Egypt. That vast wealth vanish in the "wilderness." Historically, as I noted there is evidence of an influx of people into the highlands of Canaan during the Bronze Age Collapse, but so were large numbers of "migrants" resettling in modern day Lebanon, Egypt and generally in Mesopotamia.

IMHO the "history" recounted in the Hebrew Bible" was subservient to the narrative needed to deal with the facts on the ground in a way that helped a people living in a very divergent land.
The often-dramatic differences in the landscape have resulted in the rise of different ethnic and tribal groups that often maintain different political and religious mini-cultures. It is the home of the bronze age and iron age city states. Among the differences of Israel today and Israel as it was in biblical times is that the central highlands were heavily timbered in many locations. Today, there is no hint of the timbered highlands of the biblical period. Even the foothills (Shephelah) were mostly timbered during the formative stages of Israel and Judah.

In the east and in the Shephelah, we find the homes of a large community of pastoralists. These people travel from higher elevations to lower elevations seasonally to find grazing for their flocks. Somewhere in this community were located the first people known to the Egyptians as Israel. The communities of the highlands were only separated by a few miles from settled areas, but the heavily timbered terrain resulted in their separation. For instance, while the Jerusalem area is 2,400’ – 2,800’ above sea level, it is only 15 miles from the dead sea which is the lowest place on earth at 1,350 below sea level. Thus, traveling from the dead sea to Jerusalem requires a climb of 4,000’ in 15 miles. The cultures that rose in the highlands city states and the pastoralists formed the backbone of future Israel and Judah whereas the coastal plains were initially settled by "boat people" who became the Pilestines.

I do not expect the the "Bible" to recount a "historical narrative." However, many Hebrew authors do seem oblivious to the realities of their times. Hebrew Scholars disagree as to the timeframe for the book of Joshua, but historically is it a distinct outlier in contrast to all the applied sciences. At any time this "invasion" could possible have happened, Egypt was firmly in control of Canaan. See the Amarna letters. They had 4 major military and administrative centers in Canaan. They had destroyed a collection of Canaanite kings at Megiddo and mandated that all cities constructed in their territory of Canaan not have protective walls. Only a few formerly walled cities were allowed to retain their walls. The cities were a combination of Egyptian and Canaanite houses. There were generations of cultural exchange between the Canaanites and the Egyptians. The later Hebrew Kingdoms continued to use Egyptian math and measurements generations after the Egyptians left day to day control of Canaan. It was Egypt to finally and permanently destroyed not only Israel but the Davidic heritage alleged by many kinds of Israel.
 
biblestudent78 said: Christians are commanded to fast on Wednesdays and Fridays

He's got conjecture and speculation about this since the New Testament did not issue any such commands.
ScooterJackson:
What you define as the "New Testament" was chosen by the Christian Church controlled by Rome around 380 AD. Prior to that time many "non-canonical" were read and revered by those living much, much, much closer to the time of Jesus.