Is God Just?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Therapon
  • Start date Start date
  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
T

Therapon

Guest
Does a godly heart or sound doctrine result in salvation?

In 1701, Asano Takumi-no-Kami Naganori, Lord of Ako Prefecture, was ordered to appear at the Shogun’s palace to perform a couple of ceremonial duties. Lord Asano was a most honorable and devout Confucian who stood on precepts very similar to those in the Bible. But an edict by the Shogun in 1635 kept Christianity out of Japan so it was impossible for Lord Asano to have even heard of Jesus.

Lord Asano was to be instructed in court etiquette and protocol by the Shogun’s Chamberlain, one Kira Yoshinaka, a greedy and lecherous court official who expected to be bribed for everything he did. Lord Asano hated court corruption and refused, so Lord Kira continually browbeat Lord Asano, who kept his temper until Lord Kira insulted him publically. That was something the proud Asano could not allow so he drew his sword and attempted to kill Kira. He was prevented from doing so by nearby retainers.

This was no minor misdeed! Drawing a sword in the Shogun’s palace, regardless of provocation, was an automatic death sentence by seppuku (the ritual and public slitting of one’s own stomach). Lord Asano knew he would die, be dishonored, his lands seized, his family disgraced and his samurai made homeless, but his honor allowed him to do nothing else so he accepted the judgment of the Shogun and committed seppuku.

Well, forty-seven of Lord Asano’s samurai knew this had been an unjust judgment and they really honored their liege lord so they bound together in a blood oath to avenge their master’s unjust death and restore his honor. It took them two years of planning, but in 1703 they stormed Lord Kira’s palace, took his head, stuck it on a pole, and marched it through the capital city. They then laid Kira’s head at the grave of Lord Asano and surrendered to authorities.

From the outset, these forty-seven samurai knew they would be ordered to commit seppuku for killing the Shogun’s Chamberlain, but they did it anyway because, from their doctrinal position, this was the most honorable thing they could do. All forty-seven gave their lives for their friend and lord's honor.

Now let’s cut to 2013 and any church in the land. Here we find Alfonzo Schmidlop or the like. And man, does he have his doctrine down. Alfonzo believes in the seven-year tribulation, election, knows the four spiritual laws, has said the sinners prayer, goes to church every Sunday, takes communion and debates all the above ad nauseam. But Alfonzo also sleeps with his neighbor’s wife on Monday, steals from his employer, is a closet drunk, and is judgmental and unforgiving. So let me ask two questions:

1. Is Alfonzo going to heaven because he has his doctrine right?

2. Are those 47 samurai who did what was right going to hell because they didn’t have any doctrine at all?

Those samurai didn’t know anything about Jesus, but “greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friend.” And as the Lord told Samuel, “The Lord doesn’t see as man sees. Man looks on the outward appearance (i.e., the doctrine), but the Lord looks upon the heart.”

It appears that God is not looking for people with the right doctrine, but people with the right heart. There were plenty who had the right doctrine in Jesus’ day, but He chose to be with the no-pretense types, the publicans and sinners. Point being: We can know a lot about doctrine and debate our individual positions endlessly, but to know a little about the heart of God, ah, now that is something worth striving for."
 
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; 19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, [even] his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse

I think people can know Christ even if the gospel was not preached to them
 
1. Is Alfonzo going to heaven because he has his doctrine right?

2. Are those 47 samurai who did what was right going to hell because they didn’t have any doctrine at all?

To answer your 2nd question first:
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

And for your 1st question:
Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
 
Only God can judge such matters correctly.

God judges our entire lives as a whole.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Therapon,

Jesus is the one who said there isn't any other way of salvation except through him.

I didn't say that.
Jesus said that.
If you don't like what Jesus said, you need to take that up with HIM.

John 14:6
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."


If you don't like what Jesus said, there's no need for me to debate it.
Go believe whatever you want.

God Bless,
Max
 
God created man for eternal love and life with him
man ignored him killed each other raped children stole lied cheated and started wars


So he sent his only son to die for him
then they killed all his messengers telling him that

the enemy twists truth to make God look bad

God still loves

God would be just to kill us all right now, and the angels would say
about time

but he still loves us

He is just
but thank God his mercy prevails a little longer till you wake up
 
Does a godly heart or sound doctrine result in salvation?

In 1701, Asano Takumi-no-Kami Naganori, Lord of Ako Prefecture, was ordered to appear at the Shogun’s palace to perform a couple of ceremonial duties. Lord Asano was a most honorable and devout Confucian who stood on precepts very similar to those in the Bible. But an edict by the Shogun in 1635 kept Christianity out of Japan so it was impossible for Lord Asano to have even heard of Jesus.

Lord Asano was to be instructed in court etiquette and protocol by the Shogun’s Chamberlain, one Kira Yoshinaka, a greedy and lecherous court official who expected to be bribed for everything he did. Lord Asano hated court corruption and refused, so Lord Kira continually browbeat Lord Asano, who kept his temper until Lord Kira insulted him publically. That was something the proud Asano could not allow so he drew his sword and attempted to kill Kira. He was prevented from doing so by nearby retainers.

This was no minor misdeed! Drawing a sword in the Shogun’s palace, regardless of provocation, was an automatic death sentence by seppuku (the ritual and public slitting of one’s own stomach). Lord Asano knew he would die, be dishonored, his lands seized, his family disgraced and his samurai made homeless, but his honor allowed him to do nothing else so he accepted the judgment of the Shogun and committed seppuku.

Well, forty-seven of Lord Asano’s samurai knew this had been an unjust judgment and they really honored their liege lord so they bound together in a blood oath to avenge their master’s unjust death and restore his honor. It took them two years of planning, but in 1703 they stormed Lord Kira’s palace, took his head, stuck it on a pole, and marched it through the capital city. They then laid Kira’s head at the grave of Lord Asano and surrendered to authorities.

From the outset, these forty-seven samurai knew they would be ordered to commit seppuku for killing the Shogun’s Chamberlain, but they did it anyway because, from their doctrinal position, this was the most honorable thing they could do. All forty-seven gave their lives for their friend and lord's honor.

Now let’s cut to 2013 and any church in the land. Here we find Alfonzo Schmidlop or the like. And man, does he have his doctrine down. Alfonzo believes in the seven-year tribulation, election, knows the four spiritual laws, has said the sinners prayer, goes to church every Sunday, takes communion and debates all the above ad nauseam. But Alfonzo also sleeps with his neighbor’s wife on Monday, steals from his employer, is a closet drunk, and is judgmental and unforgiving. So let me ask two questions:

1. Is Alfonzo going to heaven because he has his doctrine right?

2. Are those 47 samurai who did what was right going to hell because they didn’t have any doctrine at all?

Those samurai didn’t know anything about Jesus, but “greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friend.” And as the Lord told Samuel, “The Lord doesn’t see as man sees. Man looks on the outward appearance (i.e., the doctrine), but the Lord looks upon the heart.”

It appears that God is not looking for people with the right doctrine, but people with the right heart. There were plenty who had the right doctrine in Jesus’ day, but He chose to be with the no-pretense types, the publicans and sinners. Point being: We can know a lot about doctrine and debate our individual positions endlessly, but to know a little about the heart of God, ah, now that is something worth striving for."

Great post! I think a lot of people are going to get a rude awakening. There are many who have chosen not to worship the false gods of the civilization and times they lived in but instead decided to follow the law as written on their hearts and the God who wrote it despite the fact they never even heard of the bible.
Mat 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Rom 2:12-15 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

It’s all about the circumcision of heart that comes from being born again. Those who hear that law and abide by it display that circumcision of heart through their actions and words regardless of whether they have heard the Scriptures or not!
 
Men are not lost because they never heard the gospel. They are lost because they are in sin.
There are many atheist who say they don't need Christ because they live such a Godly life, but we know that they do need Christ. That is what the gospel is, it is telling of what Christ would do for them.
 
There are many atheist who say they don't need Christ because they live such a Godly life, but we know that they do need Christ. That is what the gospel is, it is telling of what Christ would do for them.

Yes. People are lost because they are in sin but, not having the gospel will certainly keep them lost.
 
Great post! I think a lot of people are going to get a rude awakening. There are many who have chosen not to worship the false gods of the civilization and times they lived in but instead decided to follow the law as written on their hearts and the God who wrote it despite the fact they never even heard of the bible.
Mat 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Rom 2:12-15 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

It’s all about the circumcision of heart that comes from being born again. Those who hear that law and abide by it display that circumcision of heart through their actions and words regardless of whether they have heard the Scriptures or not!

this is about making a straight path for the unbelieving Old Testament Wineksin Jews that God blinded because they couldn't handle the New Wine Jesus offered..... so they would be one of Two Witnesses, right?

make this work for Muslims, too please.

1 John 2
22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.
 
this is about making a straight path for the unbelieving Old Testament Wineksin Jews that God blinded because they couldn't handle the New Wine Jesus offered..... so they would be one of Two Witnesses, right?

Didn't say a thing about that, so why are assuming that? No point trying to change the subject just because you don't like the messenger. Luv ya Zone! I'll keep you in my prayers!

make this work for Muslims, too please.
A muslim is already worshipping a false god, but if that muslim had instead chosen to follow the law written on his heart instead of mohammad and his pagan moon god then he would have been judged accordingly as the verses in Romans 2 tells us.
 
Only God is just. All men are without excuse as even nature testifies of God. Men are condemned because they refuse to come to the light because their deeds are evil. John 3: 18-22 Romans 1:18-32 also testify against all who ignore God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
In Glacier Park in Montana there is a mountain called "Going to the Sun". The outline of the mountain is like giant stair steps. The Indians named the mountain that because they said the son of the sun came to live with them and ascended into heaven using these steps. They thought the sun was God.

God says that He inscribes His word on every heart. I have often wondered if Going to the Sun mountain was because of an inner knowledge that Christ came to us as a man or it was simply something Indians made up, like they made up that the sun was God.
 
I think people can know Christ even if the gospel was not preached to them

You are absolutely right. I know one pastor who preaches that sound doctrine leads to a sound Christian walk. He is 180° out of phase. A sound walk, i.e., a humble and contrite heart, leads to sound doctrine. After all, it's not books by men, but the Holy Spirit who "leads us into all truth, "at least that's what the Bible says. The doctrines of men that we defend so vociferously are just that, the doctrines of men.
 
To follow up with my story about the Indians who named Going to the Sun mountain, these are the Blackfeet Indians. They did not look on the son of the sun in the way we know Christ, as a savior. We went to visit their town, the town of Browning, and the town was strewn with liquor bottles and trash, there was no sign of God living in that town.

If we could depend on only the Holy Spirit to inform us without including the word, wouldn't that town have reflected God in some way?
 
You are absolutely right. I know one pastor who preaches that sound doctrine leads to a sound Christian walk. He is 180° out of phase. A sound walk, i.e., a humble and contrite heart, leads to sound doctrine. After all, it's not books by men, but the Holy Spirit who "leads us into all truth, "at least that's what the Bible says. The doctrines of men that we defend so vociferously are just that, the doctrines of men.

you've got quite an impressive array of publications where you have highly developed doctrines including impossible mathematical shenanigans to manipulate Daniel's 70th week, Ellis.

doctrines of Ellis, the man.
 
Didn't say a thing about that, so why are assuming that? No point trying to change the subject just because you don't like the messenger. Luv ya Zone! I'll keep you in my prayers!

not changing the subject at all, doulos.
we could go into what the subject really is.

wanna?

A muslim is already worshipping a false god, but if that muslim had instead chosen to follow the law written on his heart instead of mohammad and his pagan moon god then he would have been judged accordingly as the verses in Romans 2 tells us.

who does this not apply to today?

1 John 2
21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

faithful Old Testament Wineskin Jews who apparently have the law written on their hearts?
that's ellis' assertion.
that's his raison d'être, right?

....

Recent Events in the Holy Land fulfill Bible prophecy.

It can now be shown conclusively that Daniel, a prophet in the Hebrew Scriptures, prophesied the coming of Islam 1200 years before Muhammad was born. Those same scriptures prophesied the crucifixion of Messiah over 500 years before Jesus was born. John, another Bible prophet, foresaw the new nation of Israel 1800 years before it was established. John then prophesied that Jerusalem would be freed of Islamic control by 1967.

Bible Prophecy - Ellis Skolfield

what RUBBISH.
 
not changing the subject at all, doulos.
we could go into what the subject really is.

Really I thought the subject of this thread was about gentiles that had never heard the gospel.


No Zone I am not interested in your childish games or giving you an excuse to go on another antizionist rant, so let’s stick to the subject which is unbelieving Gentiles that haven’t heard the gospel.

Love ya Zone, I’ll keep you in my prayers!
 
In Glacier Park in Montana there is a mountain called "Going to the Sun". The outline of the mountain is like giant stair steps. The Indians named the mountain that because they said the son of the sun came to live with them and ascended into heaven using these steps. They thought the sun was God.

God says that He inscribes His word on every heart. I have often wondered if Going to the Sun mountain was because of an inner knowledge that Christ came to us as a man or it was simply something Indians made up, like they made up that the sun was God.

Very interesting. Sounds to me like a corrupted version of God's Truth, that their ancestors (maybe thousands of years previous) believed.