S
Sirk
Guest
I'd say Gods grace runs pretty deep considering how He came here and washed dirty feet and rubbed elbows with the likes of us.
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Yeah-
1) No one, even after being given eternal life completely stops sinning. Not until that person is in heaven with Jesus.
2) Therefore, God's grace is unlimited to that person's sin
3) Remember the 'unforgiveable sin' was from people who were rejecting salvation to begin with.. not something that applies to already saved people
4) John 3:16 ! John 5:24 ! John 10:28 ! Ephesians 2:8-9!
And:
(Col 2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
(Col 2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
(Col 2:15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
!!!
1) No one, even after being given eternal life completely stops sinning. Not until that person is in heaven with Jesus.
2) Therefore, God's grace is unlimited to that person's sin
3) Remember the 'unforgiveable sin' was from people who were rejecting salvation to begin with.. not something that applies to already saved people
4) John 3:16 ! John 5:24 ! John 10:28 ! Ephesians 2:8-9!
And:
(Col 2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
(Col 2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
(Col 2:15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
!!!
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (from Rom. 5)
Does that mean we can just go out and sin all we want? Paul answers that question in the verses following in the next chapter:
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. (from Rom. 6)
Those who are in Christ who sin have Christ right there with them - we've been baptized into Him and are one with Him. There is no loss of 'fellowship' when a believer sins (there are no New Covenant Scriptures that says there is) - Christ is right there with us all the time and that's why believers who sin are uncomfortable in their sinning.
Repenting is often mis-defined as 'turning from sin'. Let's look at the Biblical definition for repentance:
Repent - Strong's G3340 - metanoeō
[*=1]to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
[*=1]to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
Repentance - Strong's G3341 - metanoia
[*=1]a change of mind, as it appears to one who repents, of a purpose he has formed or of something he has done
Now about that changing of one's mind.
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. (from Rom. 12)
How does this happen? By sheer willpower?
Thankfully, no. Guess what the Scriptures say teaches us?
Grace!
11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It [Grace] teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (from Tit. 2)
And note that Grace teaches us . . . He is patient with us as we err and learn through our mistakes. Note that our errors and mistakes WILL have earthly consequences. For instance if you get drunk and drive into another vehicle or object and injure or kill yourself or someone else, that is an earthly consequence.
Sinning is dumb and destructive to ourselves and to those around us. Others in the Body of Christ are not obligated to put up with our sinning, and in fact are instructed to not associate with believers who sin (see 1 Cor. 5).
Don't confuse earthly (horizontal) consequences with heavenly (vertical) consequences. Your sins were all judged at the Cross.
If you are in Christ, the following is true:
Has God dealt with the sins of the world?
Yes.
How many times did He deal with it?
Once.
Have your sins been judged?
Yes.
Where were they judged?
At the Cross.
What was the verdict?
Guilty.
What was the punishment?
Death.
Who took it?
Jesus.
How much of it?
All of it.
How much is left for you?
None.
(Quoted from Bob George, The New Covenant Explained http://bobgeorge.net/?ddownload=1833)
So the Work of Christ has dealt with all your sins, not only yours, but the sins of the whole world (1 Jn.2)!
And what about that verse in Hebrews 10 that says that if you continue in sin there is no more sacrifice for you (vs. 26)? In context, that verse, written to Hebrews who had been presented with the Gospel and were still depending on the Temple and its sacrificial system to 'cover' their sins, it is speaking of a specific sin - the sin of unbelief in Christ and His Work. If they continue in their unbelief, there is no sacrifice for that sin. The whole letter to them is telling them of the superiority of Christ's Work to the work of bulls and goats via the Law. In the Old Covenant, one had to confess and sacrifice, rinse, and repeat as necessary. Christ is able to save us completely because He always lives to intercede for us (Heb. 7, 1 Jn. 2).
For a variety of really good teaching resources that teach about and build you up in who you are in Christ, check out the following page: https://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/audio-and-text-resources/
Lots of good resources there which will help you to sort out who you are in Christ according to the Good News (Gospel) and what it means to walk in Grace.
Grace and peace to you,
-JGIG
J
Jay3009
Guest
Thank you for your detailed answer. Therefore if Christ payed the price for everybodys sin on the cross wouldn't that make christian universalism true as stated in most near death experiences. Personally I'd like christian universalism to be true as have unsaved family members who have died and hate the thought of them suffering for eternity
Jesus IS NOT on record speaking of GRACE? What? I'm the only one who caught that comment?
John 3:14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
That IS GRACE!
Now, to the OP: Seriously?
John 3:14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20) For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21) But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
That IS GRACE!
Now, to the OP: Seriously?
Christ paid the price for all sins, but the one sin He could not wash away was the sin of unbelief. Romans 5 clearly tells us this:
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
I think any of us with tender hearts who love those around us wish universalism were true, but we clearly must choose to believe in the One God has sent (Jn. 6:28-29, 1 Jn. 3:23-24). A good teaching regarding universalism can be found here.
The following is my OPINION - I believe that our gracious God gives everyone, in their final moments (remembering that God is outside of time), an accurate account of the Good News (Gospel) and the chance to choose Christ. Lots of people who profess Christ pontificate about how few people they say will be in heaven, but Rev. 7 says this:
9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”
There is so much fluff and Bad News that has been mixed into the simple Gospel that most of us don't even know how to share Jesus with people anymore! I trust that God does not hold that against those who would certainly choose to say "Yes" to the Gospel given an accurate picture of the Work of Christ and the gift offered to them and gives them a final chance to receive that gift of salvation in Christ. Again - MY OPINION =o).
My prayer is that the Body of Christ would become proficient in what the Good News actually is - GOOD! And that they would spend far less time focusing on themselves and far more time focusing on Christ and who they are in Him and letting Him produce His Fruit - primarily love - which will draw those around us to Him. How different our world would be, how many more would be saved and serving Him and one another if we were doing just that as the Body of Christ . . .
-JGIG
In the Old Testament we see a picture of this when the Israelites in Egypt were to kill and eat their lamb and apply it to the lintel of the doorpost. Killing the lamb (Christ's death) was a sufficient sacrifice but it still had to be applied to the doorpost (faith) to be effective in averting the Death Angel....
Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover. For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
(Exo 12:5-13)
A
atwhatcost
Guest
You're the first person on the bus. At the next stop, four others get on. At the next stop, one gets off and five get on, at the...yay! no more math problems!
Wait. You don't like math problems? Bummer.
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atwhatcost
Guest
Make me have to learn that many words, and I'm going to hit you with very long math problems.tbh, i'd rather read some of these posts, touting captious, otiose philosophies
in the most vituperative manner than do math...
A
atwhatcost
Guest
Who said he paid the price for everyone? He paid the price of whosoever will (John 3:16-21) or "I should lose nothing of all that he [the Father] has given me"?(John 6:35-40.)
I'd like that too, but that's not God's plan.
You're the first person on the bus. At the next stop, four others get on. At the next stop, one gets off and five get on, at the...
Wait. You don't like math problems? Bummer.
10! cause you have to count the bus driver...tricky, tricky, tricky
A
atwhatcost
Guest
Nah. The question, (after going through something like ten stops), is "Who was the first person on the bus?"10! cause you have to count the bus driver...tricky, tricky, tricky
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endure4ever
Guest
If God forgives us without us even needing to repent, what's the purpose of repentance? Why did Jesus and his apostles speak of the need for repentance?
Accepting Jesus as Lord, as I understand it, includes repentance, and faith and much more.
pffftt. ....Nah. The question, (after going through something like ten stops), is "Who was the first person on the bus?"
I like to see faith and repentance as two sides of the same coin...as you turn to Christ, you turn away from all else.
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endure4ever
Guest
oh wait, wait,... here's how it should go...
You're the first passenger on the bus. The bus driver happily greets you, because she just had a long drive all alone on this particular day, since she just returned from dropping off passengers at a retreat far away from home. At the next stop, 3 more people get on- 2 men and 1 woman. Then at the next stop, 2 get off and 1 gets on. You notice that one has a briefcase. At the next stop, 3 people get off rather quickly, and 2 more get on. At the next stop, 3 people get off. How many people get on at the next stop? and how do you know this?
You're the first passenger on the bus. The bus driver happily greets you, because she just had a long drive all alone on this particular day, since she just returned from dropping off passengers at a retreat far away from home. At the next stop, 3 more people get on- 2 men and 1 woman. Then at the next stop, 2 get off and 1 gets on. You notice that one has a briefcase. At the next stop, 3 people get off rather quickly, and 2 more get on. At the next stop, 3 people get off. How many people get on at the next stop? and how do you know this?
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zero, it never made to that last stop since no one was left on the bus...not even the driver.