Is hell just a tomb or a place for soul?
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King James in all of his wisdom decided to change (among other changes) the true words which spoke of the lower reaches of the earth to mostly just one name. Which was the word "Hell". But in reality according to the Hebrews and the Greeks there are three different sections or regions of the lower reaches of the earth. One is call "Hades" and the word Hades is speaking of "The Place of Departed Souls" and there is no distinction between good souls or bad souls. It is simply the place of Departed souls.
The next region is called Gehenna and Gehenna is a place of Torment and the last region is called Tartarus and Tartarus is a prison.
Both Hades and Gehenna are mentioned in the Bible just once but Tartarus is not. However Tartarus is where the Angels who are reserved in Chains unto Judgement comes for them, are kept.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Now I already know that I am going to catch a load of flack for what I am about to says but I always do, so Here goes.
There is not one single place in the Word Of God that says that we will go straight to heaven when we die. The first problem with this non-scriptural idea that we go straight to heaven as soon as we die is that if when we die we go straight to heaven, Who will Jesus raise from our graves if We are already in Heaven? The whole purpose for the Resurrection is to raise us from the Grave to meet Jesus in the air "BEFORE" He takes us to heaven??? Right???
What do you think Christ will say when He comes down here to raise us from the Grave and all of the Graves are empty because everybody has already gone to heaven????
Here is what scripture says about our bodies of flesh.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
This means that in order for us to go straight to heaven as soon as we die our bodies have to be changed from corruptable to incorruptable. We must become immortal before we can go to heaven.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Now here is another the problem with going straight to heaven when we die. If we go straight to heaven when we die that means that we will have already been changed from being mortal to immortal because What???? Because we can't get into heaven unless we are immortal and can never be corrupted again.
But we are supposed to be raise from the grave, right?? So are we going to leave heaven, remove immortality so we can put back on mortality, change our heavenly body back to a body of flesh so we can then again be changed from mortal back to immortal and shed our bodies of flesh for a heavenly body again so we can get back in to heaven AGAIN??? No that is not the way it works accoding to the Word of God. We don't go anywhere when we die. We stay in the Grave until Christ comes to raise us from the Grave.
I will speak more on this tomorrowt right now its bed time.
The next region is called Gehenna and Gehenna is a place of Torment and the last region is called Tartarus and Tartarus is a prison.
Both Hades and Gehenna are mentioned in the Bible just once but Tartarus is not. However Tartarus is where the Angels who are reserved in Chains unto Judgement comes for them, are kept.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Now I already know that I am going to catch a load of flack for what I am about to says but I always do, so Here goes.
There is not one single place in the Word Of God that says that we will go straight to heaven when we die. The first problem with this non-scriptural idea that we go straight to heaven as soon as we die is that if when we die we go straight to heaven, Who will Jesus raise from our graves if We are already in Heaven? The whole purpose for the Resurrection is to raise us from the Grave to meet Jesus in the air "BEFORE" He takes us to heaven??? Right???
What do you think Christ will say when He comes down here to raise us from the Grave and all of the Graves are empty because everybody has already gone to heaven????
Here is what scripture says about our bodies of flesh.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
This means that in order for us to go straight to heaven as soon as we die our bodies have to be changed from corruptable to incorruptable. We must become immortal before we can go to heaven.
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Now here is another the problem with going straight to heaven when we die. If we go straight to heaven when we die that means that we will have already been changed from being mortal to immortal because What???? Because we can't get into heaven unless we are immortal and can never be corrupted again.
But we are supposed to be raise from the grave, right?? So are we going to leave heaven, remove immortality so we can put back on mortality, change our heavenly body back to a body of flesh so we can then again be changed from mortal back to immortal and shed our bodies of flesh for a heavenly body again so we can get back in to heaven AGAIN??? No that is not the way it works accoding to the Word of God. We don't go anywhere when we die. We stay in the Grave until Christ comes to raise us from the Grave.
I will speak more on this tomorrowt right now its bed time.
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Psa 63:9 But those that seek my soul, to destroy it, shall go into the lower parts of the earth.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things).
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
The wicked shall go in to the lower parts of the earth which Jesus went in to the lower parts of the earth so it sounds like people go some place else other than the grave.
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
This is speaking of Jesus.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things).
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
The wicked shall go in to the lower parts of the earth which Jesus went in to the lower parts of the earth so it sounds like people go some place else other than the grave.
Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
This is speaking of Jesus.
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Impossible.
It was a delusion God sent so Saul could continue to believe the lie. God had cut off all communication. The warning was to not go above that which is written same warning in Luke 16 .Necromancy is an abomination.
The same warning in the Luke parable involving Lazarus, a word that means bankrupt, contrasted with the word Rich man (empty riches)
The series of parables using a Rich man to contrast with the poor begins in verse 1 of the chapter 16. Other parables that lead up to the rich man contrasted with a poor begin in chapter 15 . The series of parables does not end until chapter 17.
The first part of parable is not separate from the parable in mind, that uses the word hell. But gives no description other than a place torment as living suffering . The dead cannot do anything .. No breathing under ground.
The key is given below to understand the series of parables . Can't serve the word of God and necromancy as two masters
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon .Luke 16: 13
The whole parable is about the law and the prophets or called sola scriptura contrasted against necromancy as oral tradition of sinful men
The "law and the prophets" were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.Luke 16: 16
Again no man can serve two masters as one source of faith (Christ's)
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
The clearest definition of hell is given in Jonas . By reason of suffering as living beings.
Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV) Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
The lord does not hear the dead .They have no voice.
Their corrupted rudiment and spirits return to the source they came from.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Those who have ben given a new spirit will arise on the last day and receive the promised new bodies. .
It was a delusion God sent so Saul could continue to believe the lie. God had cut off all communication. The warning was to not go above that which is written same warning in Luke 16 .Necromancy is an abomination.
The same warning in the Luke parable involving Lazarus, a word that means bankrupt, contrasted with the word Rich man (empty riches)
The series of parables using a Rich man to contrast with the poor begins in verse 1 of the chapter 16. Other parables that lead up to the rich man contrasted with a poor begin in chapter 15 . The series of parables does not end until chapter 17.
The first part of parable is not separate from the parable in mind, that uses the word hell. But gives no description other than a place torment as living suffering . The dead cannot do anything .. No breathing under ground.
The key is given below to understand the series of parables . Can't serve the word of God and necromancy as two masters
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon .Luke 16: 13
The whole parable is about the law and the prophets or called sola scriptura contrasted against necromancy as oral tradition of sinful men
The "law and the prophets" were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.Luke 16: 16
Again no man can serve two masters as one source of faith (Christ's)
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
The clearest definition of hell is given in Jonas . By reason of suffering as living beings.
Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV) Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
The lord does not hear the dead .They have no voice.
Their corrupted rudiment and spirits return to the source they came from.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Those who have ben given a new spirit will arise on the last day and receive the promised new bodies. .
Mary not touching had to do with intimacy .
The wedding will be consummated when we receive our new bodies. Jesus had not of left and returned to the Father. Jesus had work to be finished before he disappeared never to appear in the flesh ever again . The one time demonstration was not over . .until Christ said it is finished. The reformation that began then is here.
You could say no premarital union . Be patient.
Jud 1:6 KJV And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
That is your lower parts..hell
That is your lower parts..hell
My lower part?
We do not wrestle against corrupted flesh and blood nor could it profit as if it was the unseen Spirit of Christ. God is not a man. .
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63
Change the meaning of one word it becomes easy to change the intent of the author..
The word Hell as a law not subject to change is defined by "reason of ones affliction unto the Lord, and he hears them" As they cry out in there anxiety to be delivered from the suffering called the work of prayer .
The dead hear nothing. Just as us before we were given ears to hear what the Spirit of Christ says to the churches
Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV) Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice
To supplicate is to cry out in ones anxiety to be heard in their tribulation. . . and be strengthened to finish the work . No suffering after death. . the end of dying.
Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
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We do not wrestle against corrupted flesh and blood nor could it profit as if it was the unseen Spirit of Christ. God is not a man. .
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life John 6:63
Change the meaning of one word it becomes easy to change the intent of the author..
The word Hell as a law not subject to change is defined by "reason of ones affliction unto the Lord, and he hears them" As they cry out in there anxiety to be delivered from the suffering called the work of prayer .
The dead hear nothing. Just as us before we were given ears to hear what the Spirit of Christ says to the churches
Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV) Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice
To supplicate is to cry out in ones anxiety to be heard in their tribulation. . . and be strengthened to finish the work . No suffering after death. . the end of dying.
Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
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Yes he was still visible. And before he disappeared forever he left clear instruction in 2 Corinthian 5:16 (God is not a man as us)
Remember if the Son of man, Jesus did not depart the Holy Spirt could not come.
In that way no man can serve two Good Masters. The flesh as what the eyes see the temporal. And the Spirit, not seen, the eternal.
love one hate, the other.Hate one love the other
The touch will occur in the new heavens and earth. The woman in that parable that touched Christ inappropriately before the time would have to wait like other believers. No one has received the new incorruptible bodies, neither male nor female. . . Jew nor Gentile.
What is your understanding that Jesus have not ascended yet to the Father? What significance?
Continued. The word sleep and rest is used many times in scripture and Christ used to word sleep describe a dead persons state.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Now we all know that Lazarus was in fact supposed to be dead. But Christ didn't say he was dead, Christ stated that Lazarus was sleeping. So the question is, Why would Jesus describe Lazarus being in a state of sleep and not in a state of death?? The answer is that the body was in fact dead and beginning to rot but the soul of Lazarus was not dead. It was resting just as the Bible says Lazarus was doing after he died.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Notice how this verse says that Lazarus was "carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom" after he died. But the rich man was not carried by angels after he died. Luke 16:22 simply says that the rich man was buried. Lazarus was also buried but the difference is what happened to the soul after the body died. The soul of Lazarus who had embraced the Gospel and was saved, was carried away by angels to Abraham's bosom where scripture says he was "comforted". But the soul of the rich man didn't go to the Bosom of Abraham, he went to a place of torment which is called Gehenna.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Notice how Lazarus doesn't speak a single word throughout the conversation between the rich man and Abraham. That is because Lazarus was sleeping just as John 11:11 says he was. In fact Jesus stated that it was time for Him to awaken Lazarus out of sleep.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Here is another time when Christ describes a person who had died as being in a state of sleep and Jesus actually declares that the Damsel is not dead but is actually asleep.
Mar 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Again King David is not described as having died but is described as having fallen on sleep when he died.
Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
In the book of Daniel scripture state that those Who sleep in the dust shall awaken.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
In 1 Samuel King Saul new that the soul of Samuel was not dead but was only asleep when he asked the witch of Endor bring Samual UP.
1Sa 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him UP, whom I shall name unto thee.
1Sa 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. Even the witch knew that the soul of Samual could be BROUGHT UP from the dead.
And when Samuel was awakened and brought up he was upset because he had been disturbed.
1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. In this verse the word "disquieted" means "disturbed". Which tells us that the soul of Samual was in a place of great comfort but his body was rotting.
In the book of Daniel God tells Daniel to go his way and rest. God dosn't tell Daneil to go his way and die, God tells Daniel to go and rest.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
As we can see from this verse, Daniel is right know "resting" and is not dead. We can also see from what this verse says that Daniel will stand in his lot at the end of days.
The word "rest" in Dan'12:13 means "to sleep" and the word "lot" is talking about a God job that Daniel will doing at the end of days.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Now we all know that Lazarus was in fact supposed to be dead. But Christ didn't say he was dead, Christ stated that Lazarus was sleeping. So the question is, Why would Jesus describe Lazarus being in a state of sleep and not in a state of death?? The answer is that the body was in fact dead and beginning to rot but the soul of Lazarus was not dead. It was resting just as the Bible says Lazarus was doing after he died.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Notice how this verse says that Lazarus was "carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom" after he died. But the rich man was not carried by angels after he died. Luke 16:22 simply says that the rich man was buried. Lazarus was also buried but the difference is what happened to the soul after the body died. The soul of Lazarus who had embraced the Gospel and was saved, was carried away by angels to Abraham's bosom where scripture says he was "comforted". But the soul of the rich man didn't go to the Bosom of Abraham, he went to a place of torment which is called Gehenna.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Notice how Lazarus doesn't speak a single word throughout the conversation between the rich man and Abraham. That is because Lazarus was sleeping just as John 11:11 says he was. In fact Jesus stated that it was time for Him to awaken Lazarus out of sleep.
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Here is another time when Christ describes a person who had died as being in a state of sleep and Jesus actually declares that the Damsel is not dead but is actually asleep.
Mar 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Again King David is not described as having died but is described as having fallen on sleep when he died.
Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
In the book of Daniel scripture state that those Who sleep in the dust shall awaken.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
In 1 Samuel King Saul new that the soul of Samuel was not dead but was only asleep when he asked the witch of Endor bring Samual UP.
1Sa 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him UP, whom I shall name unto thee.
1Sa 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. Even the witch knew that the soul of Samual could be BROUGHT UP from the dead.
And when Samuel was awakened and brought up he was upset because he had been disturbed.
1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. In this verse the word "disquieted" means "disturbed". Which tells us that the soul of Samual was in a place of great comfort but his body was rotting.
In the book of Daniel God tells Daniel to go his way and rest. God dosn't tell Daneil to go his way and die, God tells Daniel to go and rest.
Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.
As we can see from this verse, Daniel is right know "resting" and is not dead. We can also see from what this verse says that Daniel will stand in his lot at the end of days.
The word "rest" in Dan'12:13 means "to sleep" and the word "lot" is talking about a God job that Daniel will doing at the end of days.
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It is not only the soul of the person that goes to heaven or hell, but the heart also.
The soul has no body, hence, the heart. The physical body stays on earth for it is made of the same.
The heart has a body the soul resides in. It looks just like you now and can never die.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a factual story, NOT a parable.
And yes, that scripture is referring to Jesus who went to hell, I believe, to get the keys to hell and the grave.
The soul has no body, hence, the heart. The physical body stays on earth for it is made of the same.
The heart has a body the soul resides in. It looks just like you now and can never die.
The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a factual story, NOT a parable.
And yes, that scripture is referring to Jesus who went to hell, I believe, to get the keys to hell and the grave.
The word used for "hell" in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man comes from the Greek word "Hades" and the definition/translation of the Greek word "Hades" means "The place of departed souls". Before King James change the word "hell" in the parable of Lazarus the word "Hades" was used to describe one of the three sections of the lower parts of the earth. The other two parts were maned "Gehenna", a place of torment which was where the rich man went after he died and "Tartarus" is a prison where the angels reserved in chains unto judgement are held. All three places are real and exist. When Christ was on the cross He stated that He was going to Paradise and Paradise is the same place as where Lazarus was after he died. Lazarus was not dead but sleeping in the Bosom of Abraham.
I agree with you (on this and your 1st post regarding this subject).
I am reading things in the Bible that just don't match up to " go straight to Heaven and skip resurrection" idea.
The following scriptures teach that Jesus is the one that descends, not the dead in Christ. And that the dead in Christ shall rise first to be seized together with those living in Christ.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (to seize) together (at the same time) with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Here in John we are told that ALL in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life and those that have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. It don't say they come from Heaven.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Perhaps when Jesus says "shall never die" he meant in the second death. Not that they will not sleep/rest until the resurrection.
I am reading things in the Bible that just don't match up to " go straight to Heaven and skip resurrection" idea.
The following scriptures teach that Jesus is the one that descends, not the dead in Christ. And that the dead in Christ shall rise first to be seized together with those living in Christ.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (to seize) together (at the same time) with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Here in John we are told that ALL in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life and those that have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. It don't say they come from Heaven.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
Joh 5:29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.
Perhaps when Jesus says "shall never die" he meant in the second death. Not that they will not sleep/rest until the resurrection.
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I looked up the word "judgement" in the Strong's Concordance and the word judgement is not recorded as being in verse 29. In my KJV the word "damnation" in verse 29. Are you reading from the NIV?? The word "judgement" implies that judgement has yet to be done and actually waters down the context of the verse. Verses the word "damnation" which implies that judgement has already been done and what is left is for the sentence to be implimented. Which means that some will "hear His voice" and come out of the grave/tomb go to damnation and some who also hear His voice will go to life. No I don't think that verse 29 is speaking about both the Resurrection and the Great White Throne Judgement.
John 5:28-29 are a couple of very interesting verses and they would appear to be a bit confusing Especially if you believe the "Once Saved always saved"Doctrinal belief". As it happens there is another scripture that says something similar in prophetic scripture. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. I need to point out here this verse says that "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awaken" but not all who sleep in the dust.
Now we know that scripture is very clear in that ONLY those who have been saved will raise from the grave on the day of the Resurrection. Right? So how can it be that some of those who are awakened and raised from the Grave. To better understand these verses we should look to the verses before and after the verses in question.
I Daniel 12:1 we see that at the Resurrection all who's names are found written in the book of life will be delivered from the time of trouble. IE A period of Great Tribulation/Affliction. Not the wrath of God.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. This verse is speaking of those who will be among the living the Day of the Resurrection. We are told in Dan. 12:3 that those who are wise/saved will shine brightly.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
I John 5:26-27 we are told that Father has given Christ the authority to "execute judgment" which means that on the day of Resurrection every soul that is raised from the grave will all be judged.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
The "onced saved always saved" doctrinal belief is a non-biblical garbage belief and here is why.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Here in 1 Co. 6:10 we see that drunkards shall inherit the kingdom of God.
I know folks who claim to be saved but they drink, use foul language, have low morals and basically live a life of un-repented sin. Now there are those that would say that those who would claim to be saved but are drunks were never really saved in the first place. But from my own testimony I can assure you that is not always true in all circumstances. When I was saved and when I came up out of the water I had a miraculous experience and I loved everybody. However as a brand new baby believer I was church hurt and walked away from Christ because I didn't want any part of the Gospel if that was how people/Christians were going top treat me, and I stayed drunk, high and whatever for the next 22 years.
While it is true that nothing or no one can take our salvation away from us the fact is that WE CAN GIVE OUR SALVATION AWAY OF OUR OWN FREE WILL.
If a person was at one point truly saved but backslide and slipped back into being a drunk would Christ allow them to enter into eternal life if at the point of death they were non repentant of their life style??? I Co 6:10 is pretty clear on that, the answer is no. Saved or not a drunkard would have given their salvation away of their own free will. But if they had once again repented and turned from their evil life style and back to Christ will get the eternal and into the Kingdom??? Absolutely and Christ would welcome them with open arms.
So to answer your question. Based on the fact that John 5:28 says "ALL who are in the tombs will hear his voice" I believe that this verse is talking about all the day we are raised from the Grave. IE Resurrection day. Which is re-enforced by John 5:25.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
I could be wrong but I believe that on Resurrection day that some will go to "everlasting life" and some will go to "everlasting contempt". Which means that those who have been truly saved but at some point backslide, reject Christ and the Gospel, turn back to an un repented life of sin and die without ever turning back to Christ before the moment of death, will rise from the grave with all the other saved folks but will not receive eternal life. They will go to a place of Damnation and contempt.
John 5:28-29 are a couple of very interesting verses and they would appear to be a bit confusing Especially if you believe the "Once Saved always saved"Doctrinal belief". As it happens there is another scripture that says something similar in prophetic scripture. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. I need to point out here this verse says that "many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awaken" but not all who sleep in the dust.
Now we know that scripture is very clear in that ONLY those who have been saved will raise from the grave on the day of the Resurrection. Right? So how can it be that some of those who are awakened and raised from the Grave. To better understand these verses we should look to the verses before and after the verses in question.
I Daniel 12:1 we see that at the Resurrection all who's names are found written in the book of life will be delivered from the time of trouble. IE A period of Great Tribulation/Affliction. Not the wrath of God.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. This verse is speaking of those who will be among the living the Day of the Resurrection. We are told in Dan. 12:3 that those who are wise/saved will shine brightly.
Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
I John 5:26-27 we are told that Father has given Christ the authority to "execute judgment" which means that on the day of Resurrection every soul that is raised from the grave will all be judged.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
The "onced saved always saved" doctrinal belief is a non-biblical garbage belief and here is why.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Here in 1 Co. 6:10 we see that drunkards shall inherit the kingdom of God.
I know folks who claim to be saved but they drink, use foul language, have low morals and basically live a life of un-repented sin. Now there are those that would say that those who would claim to be saved but are drunks were never really saved in the first place. But from my own testimony I can assure you that is not always true in all circumstances. When I was saved and when I came up out of the water I had a miraculous experience and I loved everybody. However as a brand new baby believer I was church hurt and walked away from Christ because I didn't want any part of the Gospel if that was how people/Christians were going top treat me, and I stayed drunk, high and whatever for the next 22 years.
While it is true that nothing or no one can take our salvation away from us the fact is that WE CAN GIVE OUR SALVATION AWAY OF OUR OWN FREE WILL.
If a person was at one point truly saved but backslide and slipped back into being a drunk would Christ allow them to enter into eternal life if at the point of death they were non repentant of their life style??? I Co 6:10 is pretty clear on that, the answer is no. Saved or not a drunkard would have given their salvation away of their own free will. But if they had once again repented and turned from their evil life style and back to Christ will get the eternal and into the Kingdom??? Absolutely and Christ would welcome them with open arms.
So to answer your question. Based on the fact that John 5:28 says "ALL who are in the tombs will hear his voice" I believe that this verse is talking about all the day we are raised from the Grave. IE Resurrection day. Which is re-enforced by John 5:25.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
I could be wrong but I believe that on Resurrection day that some will go to "everlasting life" and some will go to "everlasting contempt". Which means that those who have been truly saved but at some point backslide, reject Christ and the Gospel, turn back to an un repented life of sin and die without ever turning back to Christ before the moment of death, will rise from the grave with all the other saved folks but will not receive eternal life. They will go to a place of Damnation and contempt.
I do switch back and forth from KJV and ESV and a few others. That was ESV. I was so interested in the conversation that I didn't may attention to which one I was on. KJV does translate that Greek word(κρισεως) as judgement in Mat 10:15, 11:22, 11:24, 12:36, and some others. So I didn't even think anything about it.
I agree with you. I am not sure if I was clear about my point. Please for give me as I have a hard time trying to explain what I am trying to say. And this is probably because what I am trying to clarify is a mixture of different beliefs.
One thing is what I was trying to understand, is, if folks are in heaven already, how do they rise up out of their grave.
And if you are in heaven, how does that work with the resurrection.
As for Daniel, oh boy, I had come to a different conclusion. Which was a long time again, perhaps I need to restudy. But that was before, well, I too was saved a long time again, and felt that beautiful change. But I let is slip away, as I really wasn't be feed. It was before the internet, so no easy way to look up bible word definitions. The preacher was preaching more about how it is the Holy Ghost and not the Holy Spirit, or that you shouldn't go to Pizza places because the were dark inside.
Anyway, one day I was thinking and wondering why all the different beliefs and that everyone can not be right, so some must be wrong. So I started digging into the bible. Could afford to purchase Strong's Concordance, had internet for history searches, etc. Off I went. But I did that for over 10 years, but never felt like I did before. Anyway, I had some hurdles to get over and didn't know it, and they were Me, Myself and I. God showed me one through my mind, and the other 2 I heard a preacher on the radio preaching about it, and one of tv. I do love it when God shows you what you are doing wrong.
Any way, I am on track and God has moved and helped me in many ways.
I find it difficult due to what I was taught as a child and young adult. And then all these different things people say.
I almost didn't even post to this as there are a some nasty people here that don't seem to want to help, but to only argue. It is like a war zone sometimes.
Thank you so much for being kind to me. God Bless you.
So back to what I am trying to understand. I thought all slept, until you pointed out a major oversight on my part "many" sleep. I will go study that again.
I am not sure if people are saying that people go straight to heaven and skip resurrection. Or that is their resurrection, at death. I kind of wanted to here from them too and what scriptures they have to share.
It seems in most debates one side gives its list of scripture proofs and explains them, while the other side does the same. BUT, neither ever explain how the ones they don't use fits into their version of truth.
Anyway, Mat 22:33 when the Sadducees where asking Jesus about who a woman who was married to multiple brothers (after each one died) who's wife is she. Jesus said "for in the resurrection....they are as the angels of God in heaven."
Is this saying that after the resurrection is when we get our heavenly bodies? And not at death?
I will stop here or I will get confused with too many things at one time.
Thank you.
I agree with you. I am not sure if I was clear about my point. Please for give me as I have a hard time trying to explain what I am trying to say. And this is probably because what I am trying to clarify is a mixture of different beliefs.
One thing is what I was trying to understand, is, if folks are in heaven already, how do they rise up out of their grave.
And if you are in heaven, how does that work with the resurrection.
As for Daniel, oh boy, I had come to a different conclusion. Which was a long time again, perhaps I need to restudy. But that was before, well, I too was saved a long time again, and felt that beautiful change. But I let is slip away, as I really wasn't be feed. It was before the internet, so no easy way to look up bible word definitions. The preacher was preaching more about how it is the Holy Ghost and not the Holy Spirit, or that you shouldn't go to Pizza places because the were dark inside.
Anyway, one day I was thinking and wondering why all the different beliefs and that everyone can not be right, so some must be wrong. So I started digging into the bible. Could afford to purchase Strong's Concordance, had internet for history searches, etc. Off I went. But I did that for over 10 years, but never felt like I did before. Anyway, I had some hurdles to get over and didn't know it, and they were Me, Myself and I. God showed me one through my mind, and the other 2 I heard a preacher on the radio preaching about it, and one of tv. I do love it when God shows you what you are doing wrong.
Any way, I am on track and God has moved and helped me in many ways.
I find it difficult due to what I was taught as a child and young adult. And then all these different things people say.
I almost didn't even post to this as there are a some nasty people here that don't seem to want to help, but to only argue. It is like a war zone sometimes.
Thank you so much for being kind to me. God Bless you.
So back to what I am trying to understand. I thought all slept, until you pointed out a major oversight on my part "many" sleep. I will go study that again.
I am not sure if people are saying that people go straight to heaven and skip resurrection. Or that is their resurrection, at death. I kind of wanted to here from them too and what scriptures they have to share.
It seems in most debates one side gives its list of scripture proofs and explains them, while the other side does the same. BUT, neither ever explain how the ones they don't use fits into their version of truth.
Anyway, Mat 22:33 when the Sadducees where asking Jesus about who a woman who was married to multiple brothers (after each one died) who's wife is she. Jesus said "for in the resurrection....they are as the angels of God in heaven."
Is this saying that after the resurrection is when we get our heavenly bodies? And not at death?
I will stop here or I will get confused with too many things at one time.
Thank you.
Your Very Welcome. There are some nasty folks here but I try let them be nasty and me be civil and polite. No name calling and no intentional insults.
"that you shouldn't go to Pizza places because the were dark inside" LOL WOW that's a new one on me. Definitely out in left field.
What seem to many to be a small thing are words like "many" in Dan. 12:2. BUT I have found them to be valuable little nuggets.
Even though all who have died in Christ as well as those who will be living in Christ at the time of the resurrection there are still Old Testament Saints who will continue sleeping in the dust ontil the Great White Throne Judgement. Proof of this is revealed in Rev. 12:12 where it says "and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Notice how the verse says that "The books were opened" and then it says that "and another book was opened, which is the book of life". There is only one Book of life where the names of the righteous are written and many books where that names of the wicked are written. That is why "many" but not all ill awaken and be raised from the dust of the earth on resurrection day.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
An example of am Old Testament Saint who will be judged at the white throne judgement is Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. According to this scripture Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are dead but still alive even though the Bible recorded them as being dead. They are dead from this world but their souls are still alive and sleeping in the dust of the earth.
"I find it difficult due to what I was taught as a child and young adult. And then all these different things people say."
My advise is always, strictly stick to the Word of God and you will never go wrong and it keeps 98% of the confusion down.
If it is not written in the Word of God, It Is Not!!!
"Is this saying that after the resurrection is when we get our heavenly bodies? And not at death?" These are a couple of good questions and I think a bit hard to answer.
First of all there are a lot of folks who believe everybody such as family members, friends, spouses and so on are going to know and recognize each other but there is no proof of that belief written in the Bible. But in Matt. 22:30 it is clear that just as the angels in heaven. Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
As for when we get our Glorified body?? I go to scripture which tells me that in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man still had eyeballs and a tongue even though his body was rotting in the grave. But the rich man could see Lazarus and Abraham from where he was being tormented and Abraham could see the rich man so I don't thing they were spirits in the sense that they were invisible. So somehow in the spirit realm they could see and recognize each other. Whether or not it was a glorified body I can not say and the rich man would certainly not have had a glorified body while Roasting in a place of torment.
We do know that when Christ was raised from the grave He had received His Glorified body.
There is a free program/file you can download on your computer that is called E-Sword. I can find any scripture I want very quickly with this program/file and it has all kinds of stuff on it you can use for research and when talking about the Bible, although some of the Bible versions you have to pay for but there is a lot of free stuff.
Be blessed my brother from another mother. LOL
"that you shouldn't go to Pizza places because the were dark inside" LOL WOW that's a new one on me. Definitely out in left field.
What seem to many to be a small thing are words like "many" in Dan. 12:2. BUT I have found them to be valuable little nuggets.
Even though all who have died in Christ as well as those who will be living in Christ at the time of the resurrection there are still Old Testament Saints who will continue sleeping in the dust ontil the Great White Throne Judgement. Proof of this is revealed in Rev. 12:12 where it says "and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
Notice how the verse says that "The books were opened" and then it says that "and another book was opened, which is the book of life". There is only one Book of life where the names of the righteous are written and many books where that names of the wicked are written. That is why "many" but not all ill awaken and be raised from the dust of the earth on resurrection day.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
An example of am Old Testament Saint who will be judged at the white throne judgement is Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. According to this scripture Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are dead but still alive even though the Bible recorded them as being dead. They are dead from this world but their souls are still alive and sleeping in the dust of the earth.
"I find it difficult due to what I was taught as a child and young adult. And then all these different things people say."
My advise is always, strictly stick to the Word of God and you will never go wrong and it keeps 98% of the confusion down.
If it is not written in the Word of God, It Is Not!!!
"Is this saying that after the resurrection is when we get our heavenly bodies? And not at death?" These are a couple of good questions and I think a bit hard to answer.
First of all there are a lot of folks who believe everybody such as family members, friends, spouses and so on are going to know and recognize each other but there is no proof of that belief written in the Bible. But in Matt. 22:30 it is clear that just as the angels in heaven. Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
As for when we get our Glorified body?? I go to scripture which tells me that in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man still had eyeballs and a tongue even though his body was rotting in the grave. But the rich man could see Lazarus and Abraham from where he was being tormented and Abraham could see the rich man so I don't thing they were spirits in the sense that they were invisible. So somehow in the spirit realm they could see and recognize each other. Whether or not it was a glorified body I can not say and the rich man would certainly not have had a glorified body while Roasting in a place of torment.
We do know that when Christ was raised from the grave He had received His Glorified body.
There is a free program/file you can download on your computer that is called E-Sword. I can find any scripture I want very quickly with this program/file and it has all kinds of stuff on it you can use for research and when talking about the Bible, although some of the Bible versions you have to pay for but there is a lot of free stuff.
Be blessed my brother from another mother. LOL