Is infant baptism biblical?

[eternally-gratefull]

Daniel 9 undoes your whole foundation.

Romans does not have jews judicially blinded for 2000 years until they are in control in Palestine.
in control of what?.

No zone it does not. Dan 9 says jerusalem will be in desolation for a time which is to be determined (does not give the time)

Luke 21 Says jerusalem will be trambled by gentiles ((another fancy term for saying be in desolation) until the fullness of the gentiles come in.

Matt 24 speaks of the abomination, which will be followed by tribulation, followed by THE RETURN OF CHRIST.

Rom 11 says Isreal will be blind until the times of the gentile is completed. Until then they will be blind. They are still blind today, You prove it with almost every post against them you post.. Which means the time of the gentiles is STILL IN EFFECT. Your very argument prove they are still blind, thus the time of the gentiles has not been fulfilled.

The times of the gentiles is the time in which they will keep jerusalem in desolation. And the time that Isreal will be blind

And who said they would be in Control? or TAKE control? Scripture does not. It says JESUS WILL TAKE CONTROL. AND HE WILL BE IN CONTROL.

You to bent up over a false form of people who do not know scripture. your unwilling to listen to anyone else. If you would stop assuming things, and actually listen to what they say, you would understand your argument is unfounded. your arguing against yourself. not me.. because I do not believe ANY of the thing you keep arguing against!

 

[Abiding]

Im thinking its about time

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Im thinking its about time

lol. I am gonna head to bed anyway.. I gotta be up early

Maybe you just need to shoot us both??

 

[BarlyGurl]

No zone it does not. Dan 9 says jerusalem will be in desolation for a time which is to be determined (does not give the time)

Luke 21 Says jerusalem will be trambled by gentiles ((another fancy term for saying be in desolation) until the fullness of the gentiles come in.

Matt 24 speaks of the abomination, which will be followed by tribulation, followed by THE RETURN OF CHRIST.

Rom 11 says Isreal will be blind until the times of the gentile is completed. Until then they will be blind. They are still blind today, You prove it with almost every post against them you post.. Which means the time of the gentiles is STILL IN EFFECT. Your very argument prove they are still blind, thus the time of the gentiles has not been fulfilled.

The times of the gentiles is the time in which they will keep jerusalem in desolation. And the time that Isreal will be blind

And who said they would be in Control? or TAKE control? Scripture does not. It says JESUS WILL TAKE CONTROL. AND HE WILL BE IN CONTROL.

You to bent up over a false form of people who do not know scripture. your unwilling to listen to anyone else. If you would stop assuming things, and actually listen to what they say, you would understand your argument is unfounded. your arguing against yourself. not me.. because I do not believe ANY of the thing you keep arguing against![/QUOTE]


Whoops... I thought this was the infant baptism thread.

 

[zone]

BTW, Bullinger is not the only scholar that believes in dispensation. I sometimes say administrations which is the same meaning of the Greek word - oikonomia.

okay.

first, where the idea of a distinct division in time and purpose, a "Dispensation of Grace" (the way Bullinger and others use it) came from:


Colossians 1:25
New International Version (©1984)
I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness--

New Living Translation (©2007)
God has given me the responsibility of serving his church by proclaiming his entire message to you.

English Standard Version (©2001)
of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, so that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God,

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
I have become its servant, according to God's administration that was given to me for you, to make God's message fully known,

International Standard Version (©2012)
I became its servant as God commissioned me to work for you, so that I may complete my ministry of the word of God.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Of which I am a Minister, according to the administration of God which is given to me among you, that I would fulfill the word of God,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I became a servant of the church when God gave me the work of telling you his entire message.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Of which I am made a minister, according to the commission of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;

American King James Version
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;

American Standard Version
whereof I was made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which was given me to you-ward, to fulfil the word of God,

Douay-Rheims Bible
Whereof I am made a minister according to the dispensation of God, which is given me towards you, that I may fulfil the word of God:

Darby Bible Translation
of which I became minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given me towards you to complete the word of God,

English Revised Version
whereof I was made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which was given me to you-ward, to fulfill the word of God,

Webster's Bible Translation
Of which I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;

Weymouth New Testament
I have been appointed to serve the Church in the position of responsibility entrusted to me by God for your benefit, so that I may fully deliver God's Message--

World English Bible
of which I was made a servant, according to the stewardship of God which was given me toward you, to fulfill the word of God,

Young's Literal Translation
of which I -- I did become a ministrant according to the dispensation of God, that was given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God,



oikonomia: stewardship, administration
Original Word: οἰκονομία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: oikonomia
Phonetic Spelling: (oy-kon-om-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: stewardship
Definition: management of household affairs, stewardship, administration.

3622 oikonomía (from 3621 /oikonoméō, "a steward, managing a household") – properly, a stewardship, management (administration), i.e. where a person looks after another's affairs (resources).

[A "dispensation" can also refer to a special period of time (management). But this is a secondary (not primary) meaning of 3622 (oikonomía).]




the only thing Paul is saying, is that he was authorized to DISPENSE, to ADMINISTER The Gospel.

Weymouth New Testament
I have been appointed to serve the Church in the position of responsibility entrusted to me by God for your benefit, so that I may fully deliver God's Message.


cont....

 

[Abiding]

No zone it does not. Dan 9 says jerusalem will be in desolation for a time which is to be determined (does not give the time)not quite Dan 9:27 says the desolation was to be determined. And it happened in 70ad. Matt 23: [SUP]37 [/SUP]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not![SUP]38 [/SUP]Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.Finished/fulfilled!

Luke 21 Says jerusalem will be trambled by gentiles ((another fancy term for saying be in desolation) until the fullness of the gentiles come in Nope it say times of the gentiles(from daniel) fulfilled 70ad.

Matt 24 speaks of the abomination, which will be followed by tribulation, followed by THE RETURN OF CHRIST.Nope first half of Matt 24 is talking about 70ad. Jesus return is talked about elsewhere like end of matt24.

Rom 11 says Isreal will be blind until the times of the gentile is completed. Until then they will be blind. They are still blind today, You prove it with almost every post against them you post.. Which means the time of the gentiles is STILL IN EFFECT. Your very argument prove they are still blind, thus the time of the gentiles has not been fulfilled.w the church is jew/gentileNope is says fulness of the Gentiles which means to be in full standing and blessing in the church then the blindness will be lifted only if they believe. The times of the gentiles referencing Daniel was up when Jerusalem was destroyed. Now the church is jew/gentile one new man without distinction.

The times of the gentiles is the time in which they will keep jerusalem in desolation. And the time that Isreal will be blindNope where did you get that idea. The last verse of Matt23 tells their only hope. Besides even the fake Israel Jerusalem is not being kept in any desolation...there kicking rear and about to start ww3.

And who said they would be in Control? or TAKE control? Scripture does not. It says JESUS WILL TAKE CONTROL. AND HE WILL BE IN CONTROL. dont understand what your referring to here

You to bent up over a false form of people who do not know scripture. your unwilling to listen to anyone else. If you would stop assuming things, and actually listen to what they say, you would understand your argument is unfounded. your arguing against yourself. not me.. because I do not believe ANY of the thing you keep arguing against!

Whoops... I thought this was the infant baptism thread. [/QUOTE] ​....................pfft

 

[zone]

Whoops... I thought this was the infant baptism thread.

it is Barly, but i'm the OP...there are a couplea convos going on at once.
for now

 

[BarlyGurl]

Abiding... Do you have a head covering to go with this???

 

[zone]

You to bent up over a false form of people who do not know scripture. your unwilling to listen to anyone else. If you would stop assuming things, and actually listen to what they say, you would understand your argument is unfounded. your arguing against yourself. not me.. because I do not believe ANY of the thing you keep arguing against!

i know what you're saying.
i hear this stuff every single day.
you can say it 500,000,000,000,000 times it won't make it true.
why anyone would not want to understand where their beliefs came from is beyond me.
there's NO PLAN B.

why don't you go over to the (Pre)Millennialism thread.

and post what you know about a future kingdom.

i made two blank pages:

This is What Happens Before During and After the Millennium

This is Why The Millennium is Required

if you can post any convincing material from any source including the Bible what happens during the Millennium and most importantly WHAT IT IS FOR, i will believe you.

i'll read it anyway.

in fact, i can write it myself:

ANSWER:











...........

no answers.
ever.

because dispensationalism of every stripe is FALSE.

 

[7seven7]

Hey guys I just found something you might find interesting! Even Martin Luther and John Calvin upheld the legitimacy of infant Baptism and defended it stridently:

" Who is to be baptized? All nations, that is, all human beings, young and old, are to be baptized...Infants, too, are to be baptized because they are included in the words 'all nations;' (and) because holy baptism is the only means whereby infants, who, too, must be born again, can ordinarily be regenerated and brought to faith."

"Doubtless the design of Satan in assaulting infant baptism with all his forces is to keep out of view, and gradually efface, the attestation of devine grace which the promise itself presents to our eyes.... Wherefore, if we would not maliciously obscure the kindness of God, let us present to Him our infants, to whom He has assigned a place among his friends and family, that is, the members of the Church."

Interesting! I wonder who changed that in the Protestant world, and why they changed it. Can anyone tell me?

 

[tjogs]

sorry my limited english here (only my second best language) but that

" Who is to be baptized? All nations, that is, all human beings, young and old, are to be baptized...Infants, too, are to be baptized because they are included in the words 'all nations;' (and) because holy baptism is the only means whereby infants, who, too, must be born again, can ordinarily be regenerated and brought to faith."

sounds exactly how lutherians explained to me why infants must be baptised... :s

 

[7seven7]

sorry my limited english here (only my second best language) but that

" Who is to be baptized? All nations, that is, all human beings, young and old, are to be baptized...Infants, too, are to be baptized because they are included in the words 'all nations;' (and) because holy baptism is the only means whereby infants, who, too, must be born again, can ordinarily be regenerated and brought to faith."

sounds exactly how lutherians explained to me why infants must be baptised... :s

so why are so many Protestants against it if their FOUNDER believed this?

 

[tjogs]

Should it first be the faith and then baptism? I personally found the idea of having requirement of baptism in order to have faith quite funny.

 

[Bookends]

so why are so many Protestants against it if their FOUNDER believed this?

We should no5 be following a "Founder" but gleam what is good and through out the bad. No human writings or thought is without some err, except the original manuscripts of the bible, which we don't have.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Whoops... I thought this was the infant baptism thread.

So did I.. Someone hijacked their own thread

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is my last comment in this thread. Since questions were risen.. just so i do not leave unanswered.

No zone it does not. Dan 9 says jerusalem will be in desolation for a time which is to be determined (does not give the time)not quite Dan 9:27 says the desolation was to be determined. And it happened in 70ad. Matt 23: [SUP]37 [/SUP]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not![SUP]38 [/SUP]Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.Finished/fulfilled!

Question for ya brother. If Jersualem did not become DESOLATE until 70 AD, And it is at this point in which Gabriel the Angels states plainly it will be trampled until "And till the end of the war desolations are determined." Then how can we say this is fulfilled. It is the BEGINNING of the fulfillment. not the completed fulfillment is it not?

Also. Is it not God who determined how long? but he did not inform us?
And finally, Did he not say when this would come to a close. With the confirming of a 7 year covenant with many.

Luke 21 Says jerusalem will be trambled by gentiles ((another fancy term for saying be in desolation) until the fullness of the gentiles come inNope it say times of the gentiles(from daniel) fulfilled 70ad.

Again, does not make sense., 70 AD Started the trampling, it did not end, the end of the trampling would be when it is no longer trampled by gentiles.

Matt 24 speaks of the abomination, which will be followed by tribulation, followed by THE RETURN OF CHRIST.Nope first half of Matt 24 is talking about 70ad. Jesus return is talked about elsewhere like end of matt24.

Will have to agree to disagree.. although I will say, the abomination did not happen in 70 AD.

Rom 11 says Isreal will be blind until the times of the gentile is completed. Until then they will be blind. They are still blind today, You prove it with almost every post against them you post.. Which means the time of the gentiles is STILL IN EFFECT. Your very argument prove they are still blind, thus the time of the gentiles has not been fulfilled.w the church is jew/gentileNope is says fulness of the Gentiles which means to be in full standing and blessing in the church then the blindness will be lifted only if they believe. The times of the gentiles referencing Daniel was up when Jerusalem was destroyed. Now the church is jew/gentile one new man without distinction.

1. the word translated fullness in the greek means complete. or finished.
2. lol.. It does not say "only if they will believe" it says they will all be saved. be careful with your wording bro
3. The time of the gentiles could not be up with jerusalem was destroyed, if anything, according to lukes account, this was the time it would have started.
4. Jew Gentile became one new man the moment Christ rose from the dead.. Cornelious and his family became one with God long before 70 AD.. so why would you say this did not start until 70 AD?

The times of the gentiles is the time in which they will keep jerusalem in desolation. And the time that Isreal will be blindNope where did you get that idea. The last verse of Matt23 tells their only hope. Besides even the fake Israel Jerusalem is not being kept in any desolation...there kicking rear and about to start ww3.

I got the idea from Daniel 2, 7, 9 Luke 21 and rev which state that jerusalem will be under A "beast stewardship" by th kingdom beasts until the final gentile beast is destroyed by the return of Christ.

As for Jerusalem not being in desolation./ Has the temple been rebuilt yet? The Isreal that is there wants to build it, But nope. no temple. why? they do not have control.

And who is trying to start ww3? Have they continued since 1920 to say no to many many peace and land treaties which were offered to all parties? Do they continue to launch missiles day after day into Palestinian territory to kill innocent civilians? Does a country not have the right to defend its people? (If Mexico did this to america, they would probably be toast! and no one would complain. But since it is Israel. Everyone is up in arms..)

I have a palestinian family who lives next door. They moved here from Jerusalem. They do not agree with what their people are doing, and can not figure out why they will not just let peace happen. Although they did mention some horrifying things jewish soldiers did to them. My point is. two wrongs do not make a right. You can;t defend one group and ignore their atrocities, and claim the other is guilty, condemn them both, or do not condemn either one..

And who said they would be in Control? or TAKE control? Scripture does not. It says JESUS WILL TAKE CONTROL. AND HE WILL BE IN CONTROL. dont understand what your referring to here

The kingdom. When Christ reigns.. When the world will have peace.. and all will be returned to the way it was supposed to be. It is not abotu Isreal or gentile. it is about the removal of evil dictators, And christ ruling with an iron fist.



buddy, if ya want to respond. lets move this to another thread.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i know what you're saying.
i hear this stuff every single day.
you can say it 500,000,000,000,000 times it won't make it true.
why anyone would not want to understand where their beliefs came from is beyond me.
there's NO PLAN B.

Yet again we come to a crossroads.

I could say the same to you, you do not want to know where your belief comes from either. It is ok for you to push where you THINK my belief comes from. But I am evil when I try to show you where yours comes from.

I will leave it at that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

sorry my limited english here (only my second best language) but that

" Who is to be baptized? All nations, that is, all human beings, young and old, are to be baptized...Infants, too, are to be baptized because they are included in the words 'all nations;' (and) because holy baptism is the only means whereby infants, who, too, must be born again, can ordinarily be regenerated and brought to faith."

sounds exactly how lutherians explained to me why infants must be baptised... :s

So an infant must be baptized to be saved. Now it is starting to make sense.

Sounds awful catholic to me.

Ok thanks for the info.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

so why are so many Protestants against it if their FOUNDER believed this?

there founder? Um Christ is the founder if anyone is.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Should it first be the faith and then baptism? I personally found the idea of having requirement of baptism in order to have faith quite funny.

And not founded as per scripture