Is infant baptism biblical?

[Laa]

where will the Body of Christ be while the Jews are in a Kingdom on earth?
do i misunderstand you?

and what will the Jews be doing?
will they be there alone?
no King?

who are they reigning over?

please explain it because so far no one, not one person has ever, not one time, at any time from any source in scripture, ever ever been able to document a parallel existence.

how does it work? where can i find it?

Zone,

I'm not an expert on the Bible, but I will try to explain what I believe the answers to your questions are from what I've gleaned from scripture.

1. Where will the Body of Christ be while the Jews are in a Kingdom on earth?

The body of Christ is made up of every single person who believes the Gospel without works since the work of the cross was complete. I think the body started about mid-Acts with Paul. The body of Christ will be raptured before the tribulation according to I Thess 4 and be caught up with the Lord in the air where we will forever be with the Lord. When the Lord made a covenant with Abraham, do you remember Him saying his dependants would be in number as the dust of the earth (earthly) (Gen. 13:16)? I believe this refers to the Earthly Kingdom. Then in Gen 15:5 the Lord tells Abraham his seed would be in number to the stars (heavenly). I believe this refers to the Heavenly Kingdom.

The Jews that had faith prior to the cross will be raised at the end of the tribulation and make up part of the earthly kingdom. There will also be 144,000 Jews saved during the Tribulation that will spread the gospel of faith plus works to the world. Everyone who believes during this period will make up the earthly kingdom.


2. And what will the Jews be doing? will they be there alone? no King?

The Jews will be under the Authority of Jesus Christ their King along with all others of faith that make up the Earthly Kingdom. Jesus Christ will physically be on the Throne of David. This doesn't mean that the Grace Age believers are without Christ in the Heavenly Kingdom as God is everywhere at all times. What the Jews will be doing specifically? I'm not sure, but I don't know specifically what I will be doing in heaven either. But I sure can't wait to find out!


3. Who are they reigning over?

I assume you mean the Jews here. There will be those people that protected Jews during the time of the tribulation that are not believers in Jesus Christ. I think this is where the sheep and the goats passages are explained. The goats are the ones that did harm to the Jews and are doomed to hell, where the sheep are allowed to be in the earthly kingdom under the reign of earthly kingdom.

As I stated, so much is so new to me. I'm not a theologian, but I love God's Word and read and study as much as I possibly can.

Did I understand you correctly when you stated that Dispensationalists do not care for the Jewish people? I guess I'm confused by that remark. I don't know what would cause a person to dislike Jews if they are dispensational???
I've told you a little about what I believe. How about you? Is it covenant theology you embrace or something different?

Sisters in the Lord, regardless

 

[zone]

Zone,

I'm not an expert on the Bible, but I will try to explain what I believe the answers to your questions are from what I've gleaned from scripture.

1. Where will the Body of Christ be while the Jews are in a Kingdom on earth?

The body of Christ is made up of every single person who believes the Gospel without works since the work of the cross was complete. I think the body started about mid-Acts with Paul. The body of Christ will be raptured before the tribulation according to I Thess 4 and be caught up with the Lord in the air where we will forever be with the Lord. When the Lord made a covenant with Abraham, do you remember Him saying his dependants would be in number as the dust of the earth (earthly) (Gen. 13:16)? I believe this refers to the Earthly Kingdom. Then in Gen 15:5 the Lord tells Abraham his seed would be in number to the stars (heavenly). I believe this refers to the Heavenly Kingdom.

The Jews that had faith prior to the cross will be raised at the end of the tribulation and make up part of the earthly kingdom. There will also be 144,000 Jews saved during the Tribulation that will spread the gospel of faith plus works to the world. Everyone who believes during this period will make up the earthly kingdom.


2. And what will the Jews be doing? will they be there alone? no King?

The Jews will be under the Authority of Jesus Christ their King along with all others of faith that make up the Earthly Kingdom. Jesus Christ will physically be on the Throne of David. This doesn't mean that the Grace Age believers are without Christ in the Heavenly Kingdom as God is everywhere at all times. What the Jews will be doing specifically? I'm not sure, but I don't know specifically what I will be doing in heaven either. But I sure can't wait to find out!


3. Who are they reigning over?

I assume you mean the Jews here. There will be those people that protected Jews during the time of the tribulation that are not believers in Jesus Christ. I think this is where the sheep and the goats passages are explained. The goats are the ones that did harm to the Jews and are doomed to hell, where the sheep are allowed to be in the earthly kingdom under the reign of earthly kingdom.

As I stated, so much is so new to me. I'm not a theologian, but I love God's Word and read and study as much as I possibly can.

Did I understand you correctly when you stated that Dispensationalists do not care for the Jewish people? I guess I'm confused by that remark. I don't know what would cause a person to dislike Jews if they are dispensational???
I've told you a little about what I believe. How about you? Is it covenant theology you embrace or something different?

Sisters in the Lord, regardless

hi Laa.

thank you for rationally and openly laying out your current beliefs, and making it clear.
i hope to do the same, then neither of us can simply throw up our hands and say 'you don't know what i believe'.

before addressing this post, i would like to ask you if it is alright to move it to this thread?

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/59097-pre-millennialism-chiliaism-4.html#post941451 < click

because this one:

Re: Is infant baptism biblical?

is just no longer applicable.

as well, the very points you are making i'm working through on the other thread.

you could just click quote on your own post, and move it over there, or better still, copy your text and make a new post over there...then anyone clicking it to see it's origin won't be directed back here.

i'll check back later.

again, thanks for a very clear outline. it's Hyper-Dispensationalism, i'm very familiar with it, so we should do alright.

 

[Geometar]

No one can restrict Christ to anyone!Parents take all responsible for that!In real Orthodox Church,not some sect.
ICXC NIKA

 

[Abiding]

Id have to say that if water baptism is a command then babies would be included
also servants and the rest of the household.
Wouldnt seem to me that assent would be necessary.
IMO

 

[eternally-gratefull]

lay it on me EG.
now we're getting somewhere.

"There will be JESUS GLORY, and JESUS LAW, and THATS IT." in the 1,000 year future reign

document all that would ya?

oh ya....you can't.
at all.

i know what you believe. FUZZ....no answers to the big Millennial Challenge.
nothing.

and not one single dispie agrees with the next.
a whole lot of propping up and tweaking goes on though.
and it's all smoke and mirrors.

if you could have produced what goes down in the Millennium, you would have done so long ago.

that's why:























blanks...nothing but.

(but i don't know what you believe, because you will not fill in the blanks - from scripture - LET'S SEE IT!)

Wow. So first you claim we believe in mosaic law and glory of Isreal. I say it is not true. and you go off on some tangent, instead of admitting you made a mistake about our belief?

Thats why their is no talking with you. If you can;t admit you made a mistake.. then why would anyone listen to you

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Some problems attendant to dispensationalism are: its Jewish emphasis on the restoration of the Temple in the presence of Christ who is the end of sacrifice, the conversion of people without the presence of the Holy Spirit, and the question of whether a future millennium is legitimate. The assessment may be made that without Revelation 20, the question of a future millennium would never come up. Most of the references in the New Testament speak of the consummation of the age without any indication of a long period of time required for a thousand-year reign of Christ. For many critics of the different forms of millennialism it appears that a towering theological structure has been built upon a highly symbolic passage in a book whose symbolism is intense. Can one justify a system of thought that is built upon a book so obscure in meaning?

One book? How about alot of the OT prophets? who spoke of things which will happen (which have not happened yet) and of King Messiah ruling with an iron fist.

If king messiah is ruling with an iron fist right now. His power is not very great is it?

 

[zone]

Id have to say that if water baptism is a command then babies would be included
also servants and the rest of the household.
Wouldnt seem to me that assent would be necessary.
IMO

assent to what?
i think the idea is that they are considered part of the Covenant fanily household, and as they grow up and can speak, they profess their own faith. which is what i see at my church.

the toddlers sing with heart...when they can 'member the words
and the slightly older ones i hear speaking to their friends and parents and the Pastor (who one little one calls "Duster"..haha)...they ALL without exception have no doubt whatsoever that Jesus is The Lord, and that He died to save us from God's anger at sin, and that we will go to heaven when we die.

they don't appear to doubt anything at all.
one little fella who sits in front of me squiggles around and draws on the Communion registrant slips and envelopes - Noah, animals, Jesus...and Kenworths

so i think they are "assenting" very early on.
no, i know they are.

i know regret is a useless emotion...but i wish i had raised my children in the Church.

 

[BarlyGurl]

I am astonished that you appear to be equating infant baptism with being raised in a Christ honoring home???? That toddlers are making faith declarations vs parroting what they have been taught at home???

 

[zone]

Wow. So first you claim we believe in mosaic law and glory of Isreal. I say it is not true. and you go off on some tangent, instead of admitting you made a mistake about our belief?

Thats why their is no talking with you. If you can;t admit you made a mistake.. then why would anyone listen to you

i didn't make ANY mistake. and i couldn't care less if you listen to me.
i found out you don't listen to anyone

what would be nice for you to do is actually say what you believe. clearly and document it. otherwise it's just what you believe...which is meaningless.


read up over here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/59097-pre-millennialism-chiliaism-4.html#post941483 < click #75+

"The Jews that had faith prior to the cross will be raised at the end of the tribulation and make up part of the earthly kingdom. There will also be 144,000 Jews saved during the Tribulation that will spread the gospel of faith plus works to the world. Everyone who believes during this period will make up the earthly kingdom."

........................

confusion in Dispensationalism is not my fault, nor is it my problem.
not one of you agree with the other. so why do you keep saying we?

you could actually read the following post, and then go to the source for a rational, non-condemning examination of YOUR beliefs.
they're there.

when this stops working for you, if it ever does, perhaps you will examine your beliefs:

Wow. So first you claim we believe in mosaic law and glory of Isreal. I say it is not true. and you go off on some tangent, instead of admitting you made a mistake about our belief?

Thats why their is no talking with you. If you can;t admit you made a mistake.. then why would anyone listen to you

i know "your beliefs" better than you do - i've been studying them for years.

Premillennialists of this older kind, while expecting an earthly millennium, do not distinguish two peoples of God, each with separate destinies. But the dispensationalists described above, though they see God's purposes for Israel and the church merging into one in the eternal state, still must be called dispensationalists because they continue to stress the abiding importance of national, ethnic Israel and look to the millennium as that period of time when once again God will fulfill many Old Testament prophecies by pouring out peculiar blessings upon Israel.


...


The extent to which modern dispensationalists reflect these five trends varies considerably. Moreover, differences among them go beyond the degree to which they embrace these modifications. For example, the interpretation of prophecy, supposedly easy to those who employ the principle "literal where possible," has led to a vast array of differing conclusions. For the sake of convenience, however, we will identify four major types of dispensationalists that are prominent at this present time.


...


The third type of dispensationalist is the modified dispensationalist or neo-dispensationalist. Those from this school of thought would generally embrace the first four of the five developments outlined above: the denial of two ways of salvation, the refusal to separate Israel and the church in eternity, the willingness to speak of secondary applications of Old Testament prophecy to the church, and the recognition of the cumulative and progressive character of revelation. They would deny that direct fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy ever takes place in the church, but would not hesitate to affirm that it is legitimate to recognize secondary applications of Old Testament prophecy with reference to the church. Some modified dispensationalists also go to considerable lengths to repudiate the easy-believism and antinomianism so prevalent in the ranks of hardline dispensationalists.


...


In the fourth place are what may be termed one-people-of-God dispensationalists. These interpreters would assent to all five of the developments presented above. In the thinking of these dispensationalists the church not only makes application of but also actually participates in the promises made to God's ancient people even if only in a preliminary way. To begin with, Israel and the church are distinct. But ultimately their destiny is one. One-people-of-God dispensationalists are very close in their thinking to that of historic premillennialists. But they still look for a millennium in which God will fulfill his promise to national ethnic Israel. God's people are not truly one until the eternal state.


...


Because of the variety that exists among dispensationalists it is not always easy to identify a particular dispensationalist with one of the four categories delineated above. But our purpose has not been to enable the reader to make such a decision in each case. Rather, we have sought to present the two extremes (ultradispensationalism on one end and one-people-of-God dispensationalism on the other) and the various positions on a sliding scale between. The two extremes represent the greatest and the least consistency (within dispensationalism) in the extent to which the church/Israel distinction is applied. Between these extremes are varying degrees of consistency in the application of the principle. Hence, some dispensationalists may indeed take a mediating position between two of the four positions just described.


...



The preserving factor in the thinking of many dispensationalists is that basically they are evangelical. And the more dominant true evangelicalism becomes in such a person's thinking, the more his dispensationalist principles will begin to give way. Blessed inconsistency!


Modern Dispensationalism, A Biblical Analysis, Part 4 of God in All Ages as One < click (excerpts)

so, assuming you will have clicked the link to see how many variations of 'your beliefs' are out there *cough*...please DO proceed to expand upon THIS, your claim:


"There will be JESUS GLORY, and JESUS LAW, and THATS IT." in the 1,000 year future reign

document all that would ya?



please by all means tell me what you believe re:

This is What Happens Before During and After The Millennium

This is What the Millennium is For


could you please do it over here....

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/59097-pre-millennialism-chiliaism-4.html < click

a little more than this would be helpful, if you want me to know what you believe.

here we go with the conspiracy theories again. (rolls eyes)

 

[zone]

I am astonished that you appear to be equating infant baptism with being raised in a Christ honoring home???? That toddlers are making faith declarations vs parroting what they have been taught at home???

what's THAT rubbish?

you apparently are not understanding what you are reading.
go back and read it again...from the OP onwards.
or not.

I SAID - the kids REMAIN/are RAISED in the church...as in have birthdays? and grow up...as in get bigger and older?
and they profess their CHILD-LIKE faith very early on.

and that astonishes you? i wonder why that is.
because all these non-demon and seeker types and lone rangers don't know what New Covenant families look like - with babies up to great-grandma in the same church.

why WOULDN'T the kids have faith? what a bizarre post from you

maybe your kids only parrot what they have heard at home.
the kids i just talked about, who are my church family btw....DO believe. and they are thinking human beings.
able to formulate their own thoughts and faith.


do you want them doing theological treatises at 5? studying theology before they say they believe?
ok...these kids say without hesitancy they believe as soon as they can speak.
so perhaps the theology they are HEARING is actually what they are believing.

do you understand this?
is it hard for you?

do YOU have a Doctorate in theology Barly?
or do you just believe.

Matthew 19:14
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

i didn't make ANY mistake. and i couldn't care less if you listen to me.
i found out you don't listen to anyone

No, it is you who does not listen. Your not fooling anyone Zone. I have told you what I believe 100 times, And how you can sit there with God as your witness and deny it is beyond me.

As I said earlier. if you can;t admit to a mistake. thats just wow.

read up over here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/59097-pre-millennialism-chiliaism-4.html#post941483 < click #75+

read what? the roman churches history? that same history says Mary died a virgin She is the mother of God, The eucharist is the literal flesh and blood. Etc Etc

I guess we just pick and chose what history as for how it defends out belief?

If I would listen to that, and church history as we know it. And that was my Guide. I would be catholic. I would not be reformed, or protestant of any type.

But you do what you want.

 

[zone]

No, it is you who does not listen. Your not fooling anyone Zone. I have told you what I believe 100 times, And how you can sit there with God as your witness and deny it is beyond me.

I KNOW WHAT YOU BELIEVE.

As I said earlier. if you can;t admit to a mistake. thats just wow.

I MADE NO MISTAKE.

it's you who is in error.

read what? the roman churches history? that same history says Mary died a virgin She is the mother of God, The eucharist is the literal flesh and blood. Etc Etc

huh?
ya....you care enough to read.
and to understand the beliefs of others (not me) - others.
you care so much you didn't even click the link which is JUST an overview of the various schools of dispensationalism - YOUR beliefs.

i find you intellectually dishonest and immature in this matter.

if you read up on your flavor of dispo, you'll find that group despising traditional churches.
oh my.

I guess we just pick and chose what history as for how it defends out belief?

you do.
i don't.

If I would listen to that, and church history as we know it. And that was my Guide. I would be catholic. I would not be reformed, or protestant of any type.

listen to what?
what you think the link said?

you're not orthodox protestant or reformed, either, anyway.
what's catholicism got to do with it?

i'm a Lutheran.
do you know what the Reformation was?

But you do what you want.

uh...okay.
bye then.

 

[BarlyGurl]

I'd like to present this award to Zone,

For perfecting the unnecessary diatribe and giving a consistant performance....
Seriously maybe consider some "chill" pills or hormone replacement... sheesh!

 

[jinx]

i haven't even read this topic but it seems to be getting out of hand from what I can read on the trending section. maybe a break from it is in order.

 

[zone]

I'd like to present this award to Zone,
For perfecting the unnecessary diatribe and giving a consistant performance....
Seriously maybe consider some "chill" pills or hormone replacement... sheesh!

thank you Barly.
i'll pass. just put it back on the shelf with your others.

are you going to address why you think little children can not have faith?
toddlers even?

are you going to explain why you believe families should NOT assume their children will abide in the faith as they and their parents did?

are you going to elaborate on your astonishment?
what did you find so astonishing?

tell us (me)..please. i'd like to hear about the child in the 'Christ-honoring home' vs the kid who parrots what they hear.
which child is yours?
which home is yours?


my dear Barly...i have not up to this time applied this to you and your posts.

For perfecting the unnecessary diatribe and giving a consistant performance....
Seriously maybe consider some "chill" pills or hormone replacement... sheesh!

but i promise to pay closer attention.

 

[zone]

i haven't even read this topic but it seems to be getting out of hand from what I can read on the trending section. maybe a break from it is in order.

if you haven't read it, why do you have an opinion?

 

[jinx]

if you haven't read it, why do you have an opinion?

that almost hurt, just making an observation

 

[BarlyGurl]

ok...
asking that I elaborate and answer questions from your smash campaign against mine for asking questions isn't going to happen... as you have already gone way to far into surmising what you "Think" I was saying far beyond the words I wrote. Sorry if I didn't serve up a post to to your liking... sometimes people write stuff I don't I don't understand... but you just go ahead and find a post where I have spewed at someone for asking a question. Suggesting anyone go to the OP to find clarification in this convoluted multi-topic thread of 375+ post is a joke. You could have written a simple clarifying response instead of going off like a dragon lady...it wasn't in the least bit called for.

 

[zone]

ok...
asking that I elaborate and answer questions from your smash campaign against mine for asking questions isn't going to happen... as you have already gone way to far into surmising what you "Think" I was saying far beyond the words I wrote. Sorry if I didn't serve up a post to to your liking... sometimes people write stuff I don't I don't understand... but you just go ahead and find a post where I have spewed at someone for asking a question. Suggesting anyone go to the OP to find clarification in this convoluted multi-topic thread of 375+ post is a joke. You could have written a simple clarifying response instead of going off like a dragon lady...it wasn't in the least bit called for.

why would i write a clarifying response to a post you had supposedly just read and replied to with an absurdity?
with an attitude as well?

if you don't like this thread, don't read it.

as for the rest....poor you.
you'll be okay.

i see you meant well.
good work Barly!
the award goes to you.

I'd like to present this award to Zone,

For perfecting the unnecessary diatribe and giving a consistant performance....
Seriously maybe consider some "chill" pills or hormone replacement... sheesh!

 

[RickShafer]

O.K. Zone, is it biblical?
I know it's not biblical, but is it copacetic?