Is it bad to play Jesus Culture in church?

[JesusRules1]

Here is a great song that speaks of our Father. If this song doesn't witness to our spirit - there is something drastically wrong IMO.

Perhaps malice is stopping us from worshipping the Lord with others in the body of Christ? It is hard to worship with those that we are biting and devouring at the same time.

Galatians 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.


It is time for all of us to grow up in the Lord.

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints[1 Corinthians 14;33].

I like Grace777x70's determination to have harmony despite our not agreeing with each other,but there is certain conduct of some people,and wrong beliefs,that God said do not associate with them.

 

[ebus1973]

Well said.

 

[Grace777x70]

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints[1 Corinthians 14;33].

I like Grace777x70's determination to have harmony despite our not agreeing with each other,but there is certain conduct of some people,and wrong beliefs,that God said do not associate with them.

Or it could be just that some people have a different view on some non-essential subjects so we think it's our job to bite and devour them because of it....could be?...

I have seen it happen over and over again and it happens in every denomination no matter what their beliefs are.

1 Cor. 15:11 tells us who not to associate with someone who slanders another in the body of Christ as it is on the same list with the ones that is a drunkard , sexual immorality or one who steals from others - or one who is an idolater - that could be a lot of things.

 

[Tintin]

All that was mentioned previously is enough to characterize them as dangerous. If you love the truth and take the Bible seriously, do the research from their own websites and you should be able to identify the error. Here's a very small sample:

Bill Johnson believes Jesus was only a man when He healed people. He says Jesus wasn't God during that time.
Word of Faith/Prosperirty gospel
Prophecy,visions,dreams/encounters all supersede scripture
False signs and wonders/manifestations/shaking/convulsing/new age books, ("When Heaven Invades Earth, "The Physics of Heaven")
Christian mysticism/contemplative prayer

Yeah, that's totally not what Bill Johnson believes. Also, he's not Word of Faith. I've seen talks where he denounces Word of Faith and the Prosperity gospel as non-biblical. Prophecies, visions, dreams and encounters don't all supersede scripture. He believes that the focus must be on the Word AND the Spirit. Not one or the other. False signs and wonders and manifestations etc? Really? People can fake it, but Bill Johnson is about truth and Jesus sometimes uses signs and wonders to point to His truth. Also, Bill Johnson's books aren't New Age, but Christian in content. Finally, Christian mysticism and contemplative prayer are very different to the pagan alternatives. The focus is always on God's Word and emptying yourself of everything you are to be filled by God to be everything He wants for you - to look like Jesus. Maybe try to do some research before you slander someone.

 

[ebus1973]

Test all things. Do some research

 

[ebus1973]

Practicing things that the Bible says not to, are not " non essential" subjects. If its in the word its essential, period. Again, those who love the truth and take the Bible seriously should take the time to do research and not just ramble on about stuff they know nothing about. Everything must be tested to scripture.

 

[Willie-T]

The thing is some charismatic Churches do things that are not of the Spirit,and serve no purpose,like those that handle snakes,where Jesus said do not tempt the LORD thy God,which means do not put yourself in a dangerous situation on purpose,and expect that God will save you.

Falling on the ground serves no purpose,and what if someone cracks their head,gets hurt.

These people go overboard thinking it is the Spirit,or trying to show,hey,the Spirit is working great in this Church,but the Bible says let all things be done decently and in order.

The Bible will state what is of the Spirit,and how people will act when led of the Spirit.

Without trying to find any of this on the internet, would you please post here, the location of even one of these rampant "Snake Handling" churches.... or how about simply the name of one single person involved with them? You cannot do it. Why? Because you really know nothing at all about them. Yet, you sit there, typing like these few strange groups are representative of "Charismatic Churches."

You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[ebus1973]

JesusRules1 is right. The churches that he is talking about might include Bethel church in redding California and IHOP in KC missouri. Slain in the spirit is not Biblical as well as many other strange manifestations like shaking, convulsing, making weird turrets-like noises, etc..These things take place regularly at these churches and its out of order according to the Bible. They might teach some biblical priciples but its mixed with error and that can confuse people and lead them astray. These people should be exposed and avoided..and prayed for.

 

[Tintin]

Practicing things that the Bible says not to, are not " non essential" subjects. If its in the word its essential, period. Again, those who love the truth and take the Bible seriously should take the time to do research and not just ramble on about stuff they know nothing about. Everything must be tested to scripture.

I agree. We should test the spirits and we must test everything against God's Word. But what you've just described (about non-biblical practices etc.) doesn't describe Bethel's doctrine (for lack of a better word). I think you should take your own advice and not just 'ramble on about stuff you know nothing about'. Because you clearly don't know anything true about Bethel Church, since what you've shared here is false.

 

[Tintin]

Without trying to find any of this on the internet, would you please post here, the location of even one of these rampant "Snake Handling" churches.... or how about simply the name of one single person involved with them? You cannot do it. Why? Because you really know nothing at all about them. Yet, you sit there, typing like these few strange groups are representative of "Charismatic Churches."

You should be ashamed of yourself.

There are like maybe a handful of these snake handling churches in the whole of the U.S. It's certainly not rampant and these people are considered loonies. Not sure why small, weird, rare sects are seen as representative of Charismatic churches.

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree. We should test the spirits and we must test everything against God's Word. But what you've just described (about non-biblical practices etc.) doesn't describe Bethel's doctrine (for lack of a better word). I think you should take your own advice and not just 'ramble on about stuff you know nothing about'. Because you clearly don't know anything true about Bethel Church, since what you've shared here is false.

I spent a month last summer at Bethel Church in California and I did not hear anything like I hear the accusations against them. I found the people there loving ,God and others and on fire for God.

The worship and atmosphere there is one of love and acceptance. They believe in praying for people that are sick and if that is ungodly then we as the body of Christ are in deep trouble.

BTW - I did not once see anyone slain in the spirit although that within itself would not bother me. When the Romans came to arrest Jesus - He said "I am He" and the soldiers fell backwards on the ground when the power of God hit them. It does happen but maybe some just fake it too. To say that it never happens and it is not from God is spiritual ignorance gone to seed.

I will say this about them too. There was a local church there in the same city that came against them vehemently - saying much the same nonsense as on here.

This "church" was having a major financial situation where they were going to have to close down. The leaders at Bethel Church took up an offering for this church that bad-mouthed them and stopped the church from folding under.

They exhibited true Christian character towards those that were hateful, full of malice and slander towards them. People should really watch what they say about others in the body of Christ because they are attacking Christ Himself.

Paul was persecuting Christians and Jesus said to him "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" Notice that to attack and persecute another member of the body of Christ is to attack Christ Himself.

 

[ebus1973]

Again, All I can say is to take the time to investigate all of this. But thats only if you're serious about finding out the truth. Ive been doing research on these movements for years. Its all well documented but people must look into it. If I was with you Id gladly show you all the material to prove it. or if youd like some websites or books to read i can offer you that as well. "The Physics of Heaven" and "When Heaven invades Earth" are two books you might want to read to get a better understanding of all the error, biblically speaking. Bill Johnson wrote one and co authored the other. But we shouldnt take anybodys word for it, we need to find out for ourselves by doing research and doing it the right way

 

[ebus1973]

Because they're false teachers and the Bible says to expose and avoid them.

 

[Grace777x70]

Just because some people view some things differently than someone else on some subjects in scripture - that doesn't make them false teachers.

Let them know if anyone here gets in trouble. They will come to your rescue and show you true Christian love in action.

 

[ebus1973]

Grace, you sound like a nice person. Im just saying that the Bible is clear that sound doctrine is essential. Bethel does not qualify as a church that empasizes sound doctrine, in fact, they more often than not emphasize and demonstrate anti biblical teachings and practices. You obviously seem to really like them, but I would just encourage you to test everything you hear and see to what God says in His word and pray for discernment. Good luck

 

[Dude653]

Never heard of it

 

[maxwel]

Never heard of it

I'm pretty sure my opinion is just going to be the polar opposite of whatever Dude says.

So I'll just wait for him to formulate an opinion.

 

[Willie-T]

Keith Giles wrote this:

You've probably heard teachers and preachers talk about the need for "sound doctrine" in today's church. Usually, this "sound doctrine" happens to mirror a denominational statement of faith ratified years ago and enforced by church leadership, (deacons, elders, etc.), and reinforced through church membership classes and sometimes even Sunday School classes.

But, what is "sound doctrine" according to the Word of God? Shouldn't we take whatever standards there may be for "sound doctrine" from the Scriptures themselves?

Here's what Paul had to say about "sound doctrine" when he wrote to the apostle, Titus:

"You, (Titus) however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine." - Titus 2:1

See? Obviously Paul knew that it was very important to teach sound doctrine in the Church. Luckily for us, Paul breaks down the elements of this sound doctrine for us here:

"Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance. Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God." - Titus 2:2-5

Wait. So, let me get this straight. Paul says that sound doctrine is all about being self-controlled, loving, patient and full of faith? Huh. I was expecting more like rules and laws and stuff. Wait, let's see what he says after this part. Maybe the rules and laws come later:

"Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us."- Titus 2:6-8

Ok. So, sound doctrine seems to be more about how we live our lives before one another. It's like, setting examples for one another by doing good, showing integrity, speaking truthfully, living a simple, decent life before men. That's....shocking. So is the next part:

"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive." - Titus 2:9-11

Ok, then. So, slaves should continue to serve their masters in humility, show that they can be fully trusted and in so doing, "they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive." Wow. Paul's goal here seems to be more about living out a sincere, authentic faith before the world than in any personal piety or in following rules and laws. Maybe he gets to the part about infant baptism or the pre-millenial kingdom in this last part? Let's see:

"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." - Titus 2:11-14

Whoa. Now Paul has started to jack up the whole idea of Grace too. Here he says that Grace teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions. I thought Grace was there to give us a pass when we say "Yes" to our worldly passions. Right? Hmm...maybe not. Again, Paul seems to teach here that Grace empowers us to live out the Sound Doctrine of living self-controlled, upright and godly lives.

"These, then, are the things you should teach." - Titus 2:15

Really? Well....ok, then. Let's all start teaching "Sound Doctrine" as Paul outlines it for us here. We are called to teach one another to live simple, humble, godly lives of service, love, compassion and integrity before one another and to the world around us. How? By the power of Grace that "teaches us to say 'No' to ungodliness and worldly passions."

If our churches today would major on sound doctrine like this and not divide over stupid disagreements about the return of Christ, or over doctrines of tongues or the rapture, or predestination, or any other superficial topic, we might actually live out true sound doctrine as Paul describes.

Disputes over doctrines come because we allow them to become more important to us than our unity in Christ.

What is it makes us one? Christ! Not our agreements about infant baptism, or freewill, or pre-millenialism, or the King James Bible. None of that. The only thing that makes us one is Christ, and He is more than enough.

 

[Grace777x70]

Keith Giles wrote this:

You've probably heard teachers and preachers talk about the need for "sound doctrine" in today's church. Usually, this "sound doctrine" happens to mirror a denominational statement of faith ratified years ago and enforced by church leadership, (deacons, elders, etc.), and reinforced through church membership classes and sometimes even Sunday School classes.

But, what is "sound doctrine" according to the Word of God? Shouldn't we take whatever standards there may be for "sound doctrine" from the Scriptures themselves?

Here's what Paul had to say about "sound doctrine" when he wrote to the apostle, Titus:

"You, (Titus) however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine." - Titus 2:1

See? Obviously Paul knew that it was very important to teach sound doctrine in the Church. Luckily for us, Paul breaks down the elements of this sound doctrine for us here:

"Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance. Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God." - Titus 2:2-5

Wait. So, let me get this straight. Paul says that sound doctrine is all about being self-controlled, loving, patient and full of faith? Huh. I was expecting more like rules and laws and stuff. Wait, let's see what he says after this part. Maybe the rules and laws come later:

"Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us."- Titus 2:6-8

Ok. So, sound doctrine seems to be more about how we live our lives before one another. It's like, setting examples for one another by doing good, showing integrity, speaking truthfully, living a simple, decent life before men. That's....shocking. So is the next part:

"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive." - Titus 2:9-11

Ok, then. So, slaves should continue to serve their masters in humility, show that they can be fully trusted and in so doing, "they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive." Wow. Paul's goal here seems to be more about living out a sincere, authentic faith before the world than in any personal piety or in following rules and laws. Maybe he gets to the part about infant baptism or the pre-millenial kingdom in this last part? Let's see:

"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." - Titus 2:11-14

Whoa. Now Paul has started to jack up the whole idea of Grace too. Here he says that Grace teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions. I thought Grace was there to give us a pass when we say "Yes" to our worldly passions. Right? Hmm...maybe not. Again, Paul seems to teach here that Grace empowers us to live out the Sound Doctrine of living self-controlled, upright and godly lives.

"These, then, are the things you should teach." - Titus 2:15

Really? Well....ok, then. Let's all start teaching "Sound Doctrine" as Paul outlines it for us here. We are called to teach one another to live simple, humble, godly lives of service, love, compassion and integrity before one another and to the world around us. How? By the power of Grace that "teaches us to say 'No' to ungodliness and worldly passions."

If our churches today would major on sound doctrine like this and not divide over stupid disagreements about the return of Christ, or over doctrines of tongues or the rapture, or predestination, or any other superficial topic, we might actually live out true sound doctrine as Paul describes.

Disputes over doctrines come because we allow them to become more important to us than our unity in Christ.

What is it makes us one? Christ! Not our agreements about infant baptism, or freewill, or pre-millenialism, or the King James Bible. None of that. The only thing that makes us one is Christ, and He is more than enough.

Right on Willie! Great post! Sound doctrine is a whole lot different than the disputes around here are all about.

I must have posted Titus 2:11-12 over 200x times in the last year - now the reality of it is even more assured in our dependence on the work of Christ and His amazing abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in order to manifest His life being shown in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to know of the love and grace of God towards them.

 

[ebus1973]

Sound doctrine is simply the doctrine of Christ. Some of those things you listed like self control, being sound in faith, showing integrity, speaking truthfully, these are just a part of what sound doctrine entails. And for the record, Bill Johnson fails the test. Forget tongues, pre/post trib, etc..This discussion is about doctrines of demons, doctrines that puff up men, doctrines that minimize scripture and elevate subjective experiences. And there should be disputes over doctrines of this sort, unbiblical ones that may frustrate peoples faith or cause confusion. (Romans 16:17) I know too many people these days, including loved ones, who are drawn to follow after men, almost seduced by them to where they wont even test their teachings because they don't want to find out the truth, and many times they dont even know the truth of scripture for themselves. They get angry at people that would dare say something against their man. But their ears get tickled by these false teachers and they are turned away to myths as the Bible says would happen and is happening. We're commanded to avoid people that don't adhere to sound doctrine (2 John 1:9-11). Christ did not come to bring peace on Earth. He came to divide. (Luke 12:51) True unity must be in Christ as was mentioned but when people go outside the Bible and teach others the same, they are not of God.(2 John 1:9-11) We are to expose these people and avoid them. We should speak the truth of the gospel, the whole gospel, in love as Paul tells us in Ephesians. That's the greatest love we can show to one another. And thats how true Biblical Christian unity is realized. Yes, in Christ alone is where we find true unity, but we must abide in His doctrine and not add or take away from it. Unity at the expense of sound doctrine isn't true unity. Knowing all this should help us to understand why Jesus says the road that leads to life is narrow and difficult.