is it logical

[posthuman]

and why do people call it symbolic and figurative

because John specifically says he was in the spirit and was called up to heaven to be shown things?

 

[noblenut]

because John specifically says he was in the spirit and was called up to heaven to be shown things?

isaiah was shown things too, things that took place 2000 years ago

 

[Noose]

there is nothing in rev 12 the says the woman is israel. she is the queen of israel who gives birth to a son who will be the ruler of heaven and earth

Nope, that's just what some people think but at least they have taken a step in the right direction rather than think there's going to be a woman who is literally clothed in the sun and the stars with the moon under her feet, giving birth to a child.

 

[Sipsey]

About 80% of the Book of Revelation is directly from the OT. If one is lacking in their understanding of the various allusions, idioms, history and audience of the various OT books, then it will continue to be a very puzzling book. There is very little in Revelation that has not already been stated in prior prophecy. Also in looking to the fulfillment of various prophecies, some had an immediate fulfillment, when they were written, but also pointed to a later, universal fulfillment also. It is not a book to be understood by a cursory reading with a thin background.

 

[garee]

what author writes about one thing when he means something else, and when does someone who writes about a cat mean a dog, to do so would make no sense at all. So why is such logic applied to the book of revelation, why do people say it means one thing when it says something else, and why do people call it symbolic and figurative to devoid it of all meaning. when it talks about a woman giving birth to a child it is just that. since when does the bible ever say what it does not mean. as spock would say, "it is not logical jim"

Why would someone literalize the signified understanding rather tha searching for the spiritual meaning hid. Is it not that we are to use that seen the temporal to gives us the signified meaning not seen the eternal?.

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified" it by his angel unto his servant John:

The interpretation prescription is there .Why not use it and apply it to those metaphors found in Revelation 20?. Is the signified language done away with after the first chapter? or without parables Christ spoke... not hiding the signified meaning from the lost?

2 Corinthians 4:18While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[Lanolin]

About 80% of the Book of Revelation is directly from the OT. If one is lacking in their understanding of the various allusions, idioms, history and audience of the various OT books, then it will continue to be a very puzzling book. There is very little in Revelation that has not already been stated in prior prophecy. Also in looking to the fulfillment of various prophecies, some had an immediate fulfillment, when they were written, but also pointed to a later, universal fulfillment also. It is not a book to be understood by a cursory reading with a thin background.

Yea you need to have read the entire Bible like the 65 books before it to really appreciate all the allusions and symbolism thats why it does come last in our Bibles and is not the first book.

People, dont skip to the end, read Revelation and then throw up your hands in despair for trying to understand it! Thats like watching only the end of the movie and going huh what happened? Why? Go back to the beginning...!

 

[noblenut]

Nope, that's just what some people think but at least they have taken a step in the right direction rather than think there's going to be a woman who is literally clothed in the sun and the stars with the moon under her feet, giving birth to a child.

the sun and moon are about her glory, and the 12 stars are her authority over the 12 tribes of Israel, but she will be a real woman who gives birth, when is the birth of a child in the bible anything but that, was the virgin birth symbolic, the birth of isaac figurative, u must believe what it says and stop the gibberish

 

[Noose]

the sun and moon are about her glory, and the 12 stars are her authority over the 12 tribes of Israel, but she will be a real woman who gives birth, when is the birth of a child in the bible anything but that, was the virgin birth symbolic, the birth of isaac figurative, u must believe what it says and stop the gibberish

You are doing good this far, the first part is excellent.

If the stars and the moon and the sun do not mean stars, moon and sun, then the woman could also mean anything apart from a real woman. Now, the bible has sub-themes which are connected to the main themes that are taught or spoken about over and over from the first book to the last one. One of the the themes is the church and its tribulations which has been spoken about several times and depicted as a woman in labor. In other places, it is shown as the church being the bride and the Lord being the bridegroom.

There's no theme or sub-theme in the bible about individual women giving birth.

 

[posthuman]

the sun and moon are about her glory, and the 12 stars are her authority over the 12 tribes of Israel, but she will be a real woman who gives birth, when is the birth of a child in the bible anything but that, was the virgin birth symbolic, the birth of isaac figurative, u must believe what it says and stop the gibberish

figurative birth?

For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
(Matthew 24:7-8) ​

 

[NayborBear]

what author writes about one thing when he means something else, and when does someone who writes about a cat mean a dog, to do so would make no sense at all. So why is such logic applied to the book of revelation, why do people say it means one thing when it says something else, and why do people call it symbolic and figurative to devoid it of all meaning. when it talks about a woman giving birth to a child it is just that. since when does the bible ever say what it does not mean. as spock would say, "it is not logical jim"

This is what happens when one "walks by sight", relying on one's own understanding.

As God's ways, are not man's ways, and God's thoughts, are higher then man's thoughts?

We, as believer's, are to "walk by faith." Leaning not on our own understanding.

2 Chronicles 7
12 And the Lord appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice.
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
15 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.
16 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

1 Corinthians 6
19 WHAT?(?!!?) Know ye not that your body is the (")Temple of the Holy Spirit(") which is in you(?), Which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, AN HOLY PRIESTHOOD, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God(,) BY Jesus Christ.

Ya see? Is not so illogical. If one allows God to "connect the dots."

 

[iamsoandso]

This is what happens when one "walks by sight", relying on one's own understanding.

As God's ways, are not man's ways, and God's thoughts, are higher then man's thoughts?

We, as believer's, are to "walk by faith." Leaning not on our own understanding.

2 Chronicles 7
12 And the Lord appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice.
14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
15 Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place.
16 For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.

1 Corinthians 6.
19 WHAT?(?!!?) Know ye not that your body is the (")Temple of the Holy Spirit(") which is in you(?), Which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1 Peter 2
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, AN HOLY PRIESTHOOD, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God(,) BY Jesus Christ.

Ya see? Is not so illogical. If one allows God to "connect the dots."

Yet the same God speaks in aspect of time as if things near,soon,at hand ect.(to him) can cover hundreds of years(see post 12&14). I think that many are just stubborn in insisting that it's either one way or the other and not both. We should bare in mind that we consider the flood as literal,the events in Egypt literal,the birth of the Lord literal,the nails in his hands literal,the deaths of Peter and Paul(and others)literal,,,the surrounding of Jerusalem literal,,its destruction literal and that all four beast of Daniel were literal nation/kingdoms who literally fulfilled the things spoken of them.

 

[NayborBear]

Yet the same God speaks in aspect of time as if things near,soon,at hand ect.(to him) can cover hundreds of years(see post 12&14). I think that many are just stubborn in insisting that it's either one way or the other and not both. We should bare in mind that we consider the flood as literal,the events in Egypt literal,the birth of the Lord literal,the nails in his hands literal,the deaths of Peter and Paul(and others)literal,,,the surrounding of Jerusalem literal,,its destruction literal and that all four beast of Daniel were literal nation/kingdoms who literally fulfilled the things spoken of them.

Aye! Same GOD, different manifestations of His Spirit? Always referred to as Lord. Sometimes LORD/Lord, and/or God, GOD, can and do speak within, and through the written text/s.

Fr'instance, GOD can sigh? This could take 1,000 years in our gauging of time.

The Lord, can sigh, and only take betweenst a coupla days, to a coupla hundred years.

LORD GOD could get angry? And take a billion years before He calms down!

All depends! And if ya ain't got a score card? You may never figure things out.

If ya can't keep your score card up to date? You may never figure things out.

Gauging eternity, is tricky business. Beings there is no beginning, nor end?

 

[Father123]

what author writes about one thing when he means something else, and when does someone who writes about a cat mean a dog, to do so would make no sense at all. So why is such logic applied to the book of revelation, why do people say it means one thing when it says something else, and why do people call it symbolic and figurative to devoid it of all meaning. when it talks about a woman giving birth to a child it is just that. since when does the bible ever say what it does not mean. as spock would say, "it is not logical jim"

Hey, I follow ya. Think about what John saw. If he saw a Blackhawk helicopter with heat seeking missiles...with limited first century vocabulary he’ left with locust having armor and fire. Ya follow me? But, i see your point that much is objective.

 

[oldethennew]

the writers of the NT were all Jewish, perhaps with the exception of Luke - so in Hebraic thought,
first of all the alphabet was a series of pictures and second, they thought in metaphors -
and thirdly, they thought in the terms of what we in our culture would call 'myths' -

there are several levels to the scriptures, -
there is the first, which is the obvious, -
thou shalt not steal,
thou shalt not commit adultery, -
the second is an allusion to what could be -
the third is symbolic -
the fourth is mystery or hidden meaning -
in other words, the scriptures are multi-faceted as many of us have come to realize...
it's like, in the scriptures, 'He was a Nazarite', oh no, He was from Galilee', etc.
they were all right, but alas, they wanted to 'argue the point', not understanding that God
makes us use our minds on many different 'levels'...we have to study from different perspectives
to even get a part of the whole picture, which is a life-time-job for those who are driven by God...

 

[Karraster]

All I am stating is God seems pretty clear in His words so that has to be the starting point.....why do these words from Revelations become figurative when other words must be read as literal.

I am very well read, yet I have yet to read in literature from every time period starting with Beowulf through the Enlightenment, Renaissance, Romantic, Victorian, Realism, Existentialism, Modernism never once is "quickly" "shortly" regarded as a figure of speech or symbolic term for long periods of time.

So now I must somehow accept God through John, writing to the seven real churches and the saints therein, is making them stretch their minds so that when John writes "shortly" he was employing figurative language....not logical.

My understanding is that the better way to translate the original language, is to say that when the very end, the tip of the tail end begins, it will go swiftly. Much like a woman giving birth. Those labor pains seem to go on forever, but when it reaches a critical stage it goes swiftly, within a single breath. (exhale)

 

[UnderGrace]

My understanding is that the better way to translate the original language, is to say that when the very end, the tip of the tail end begins, it will go swiftly. Much like a woman giving birth. Those labor pains seem to go on forever, but when it reaches a critical stage it goes swiftly, within a single breath. (exhale)

I would agree "soon" "quickly" "shortly" are not definitive terms....however, they do not mean two thousands+ years, especially when one considers to whom the words were spoken.

 

[MattforJesus]

what author writes about one thing when he means something else, and when does someone who writes about a cat mean a dog, to do so would make no sense at all. So why is such logic applied to the book of revelation, why do people say it means one thing when it says something else, and why do people call it symbolic and figurative to devoid it of all meaning. when it talks about a woman giving birth to a child it is just that. since when does the bible ever say what it does not mean. as spock would say, "it is not logical jim"

The book of Revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ to the world, and a warning to the world to get right with God when the days come for He is going to put down the world when they rebel against Him.

When it speaks of 7 heads, it is 7 kingdoms, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Roman Empire, the 10 horns, which is the world split in to ten sections with a leader in each section, which America, Canada, and Mexico, will be a supernation.

The crowns are on the heads in chapter 12 which is Satan in the spiritual realm deceiving people by those kingdoms, and the crowns are on the horns in chapter 13 which is Satan in the natural realm deceiving people by the man of sin, New Age Christ.

And the beast kingdom comes about because of the new age movement that God warned us about in 1 Timothy 4:1-5, and 2 Timothy 4:2-4.

The book of Revelation is figurative, and is events that happen.

When the man of sin establishes peace in the Middle East, and the Gentile nations come together and try to establish peace on earth then there is three and one half years to the beast kingdom.

When Jesus says things that must shortly come to pass it is the start of it, not that it is all over for the world has not rebelled against God yet, and all the saints are not with Jesus yet, and the saints are not at the New Jerusalem yet, for those things are prophesy in Revelation but they did not come to pass shortly.

The 7 Churches are prophesy for the Church age in how it will be among many people, and if any deception there is always people in the truth.

You can see how they were doing good at first, but they left their first love, and Jesus told them to repent, then the Roman Catholic Church, which is the occult, paganism, as their foundation for interpreting scriptures, then the Protestant movement, but they had not sorted it out all the way as Jesus told them their works were not found perfect before God, and then Jesus did not have anything against them, and then the saints were involved in money, and material things like we see now, because technology caused money, and material things to flow like a raging river.

Although they may be addressed to certain Churches back then, I believe it is how the Church age will go in popular belief, and if any deception there is always people in the truth.

Which the Roman Catholic Church was a big influence, and then the Protestant movement was a big influence, and now money, and material things, hypocrisy is a big influence, and all 3 movements are all at the end time.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The Church of Philadelphia where Jesus did not have anything against them, and the synagogue of Satan is probably the Roman Catholic Church, which the Pope will be the spiritual head, and the Vatican the headquarters of a unified religious system in the future.

This Church has to be at the end time, or the ways of it, for Jesus said He will keep them from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth, that have the ways of the Church of Philadelphia, abiding in the truth.

There is no way in the first century that a temptation could come upon all people at the same time upon all the earth unless it is the end time.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Joe 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
Joe 3:12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
Joe 3:13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.

When there is a peace treaty with the Jews and Palestinians then the Gentile nations will come together and say Peace and safety as they try to establish peace on earth.

Paul said the saints will not be deceived by that for they will know it is not of God, and Jesus will deliver them from the temptation that shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell on earth.

For multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision, for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision, for the world has a deciding point to get with God, or stay with God, which the hypocrite will be tempted, but can correct their hypocrisy, but those in the truth will not be tempted.

The new age movement(1 Timothy 4:1-5; 2 Timothy 4:2-4) false interpretation of the Bible will be the standard interpretation of the Bible based on the occult, and evolution, which they believe people can still evolve, and Jesus is not Lord and Savior, but teacher in the evolutionary process, and an ascended master, and avatar, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher who will cause them to evolve like the man Jesus when the Christ conscience comes upon them.

The new age movement will lead all people that do not love God to the beast kingdom in Revelation 13.

The new age movement is the beginning of the end for the wicked, which shall happen at the latter times, the last days of the last days.