Is it possible that our conscience is our soul?

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From the outset of Christianity, a core belief is that something in us is eternal. It is not our physical body including our brain. Over time, little ground has been gained about understanding exactly what our soul is. To almost all christians it is invisible, untouchable and emotionally and intellectually distant and indistinct. I have been thinking alot lately, as people about to become 80 do, about the possibility that our conscience might be our soul or connected to our soul. By the time we can walk, youngsters exhibit an inherent understanding of what is right and what is wrong. Of course, they frequently test their emerging ideas of the rules of life. Once established, the single human trait of every human ever born is a sense of right and wrong as defined by our conscience. As we begin to grasp the will of God through Christ, our conscience is further developed. To the degree we live in harmony with what we know or believe to be God's will our conscience becomes our guide. Our pre-conversion conscience is remapped toward a harmony with the will of God as we learn it and apply it our conscience has a new north star. Our conscience is separate from our intellect. We can accept something as being true intellectually, but is has no impact on our conscience.

Perhaps more importantly, our conscience can be corrupted. I am thinking now of the ancient prophets and their ranting about how the Hebrews had lost their Godly conscience. Isaiah, one of the earliest prophets railed at the loss of conscience by the people.
The prophet Isaiah spoke out against the deep spiritual decay and social corruption in the Kingdom of Judah during the 8th century BCE. His primary targets were spiritual rebellion, systemic injustice, empty religious hypocrisy, and the arrogant pursuit of political alliances instead of trusting in God. Exploitation: He condemned leaders who "grind the faces of the poor" and devour the houses of widows and orphans (Isaiah 3:14-15). Judicial Corruption: He spoke out against judges and officials who accepted bribes and denied justice to the marginalized (Isaiah 1:23, 5:23).Land Grabbing: He pronounced "woe" on the wealthy who bought up all the land and houses so that there was no room left for the poor
Meaningless Rituals: He declared that their prayers, offerings, and festivals were detestable to God because their hands were "full of blood" from oppressing others (Isaiah 1:11-15) Human Pride: He continually attacked the pride, haughtiness, and self-sufficiency of the nation, warning that all human arrogance would be humbled (Isaiah 2:11-17)
Hypocrisy: The people committed rampant sins—stealing, murder, adultery, and lying—while still claiming they were safe merely because they attended the temple. Isaiah was attempting to embarrass the Hebrew into resetting their conscience.

When the Hebrew went astray it was because they felt no guilt doing wrong..ie their consciences (souls) were corrupted.
Jeremiah
Oppression of the Vulnerable: Jeremiah 5 and 7 specifically condemn the rich and the judges for exploiting the poor, taking advantage of widows, and ignoring the needs of orphans and foreigners. Deception and Bribery: Truth had perished in the streets. Society was marked by deceit, slander, and a total inability to trust one another.
Ezekiel
Social Oppression and Violence: The shedding of innocent blood, extortion, and the systemic abuse of the vulnerable, including widows, orphans, resident foreigners, and the poor.
Corruption of Leaders: Princes and government officials acting like predatory wolves to gain dishonest wealth, and priests disregarding the Law and failing to distinguish between the holy and the profane. Corruption of Leaders: Princes and government officials acting like predatory wolves to gain dishonest wealth, and priests disregarding the Law and failing to distinguish between the holy and the profane.
In a famous passage (Ezekiel 16:49), Ezekiel attributed the destruction of Sodom to pride, abundance of food, idleness, and failing to help the poor, using it to parallel the arrogance of Jerusalem.
Amos
Often called the prophet of social justice, he fiercely denounced the elite for luxurious living built on the backs of the poor. He famously condemned those who "buy the poor for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals". He fiercely criticized the wealthy for exploiting the poor, trampling on the needy, and taking bribes. He famously declared, "Let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream!"

Even before moving on to Jesus who attacked the lack of conscience of the religious leaders of His time. All these Hebrew Bible examples equate fallen humans to those whose consciences had been corrupted.

It seems possible to me that the purity of our conscience toward God and our fellow man lies at the center of our most inner self...soul.

No, the Christian belief is that only God is eternal, and He resurrects saved human souls to immortality in heaven.

Another belief is that a human soul includes a body and spirit, which is made in the image of God because of God-consciousness and moral conscience (MFW) and may be either indwelt by the HS/GW or serve Satan.
 
From the outset of Christianity, a core belief is that something in us is eternal. It is not our physical body including our brain. Over time, little ground has been gained about understanding exactly what our soul is. To almost all christians it is invisible, untouchable and emotionally and intellectually distant and indistinct. I have been thinking alot lately, as people about to become 80 do, about the possibility that our conscience might be our soul or connected to our soul. By the time we can walk, youngsters exhibit an inherent understanding of what is right and what is wrong. Of course, they frequently test their emerging ideas of the rules of life. Once established, the single human trait of every human ever born is a sense of right and wrong as defined by our conscience. As we begin to grasp the will of God through Christ, our conscience is further developed. To the degree we live in harmony with what we know or believe to be God's will our conscience becomes our guide. Our pre-conversion conscience is remapped toward a harmony with the will of God as we learn it and apply it our conscience has a new north star. Our conscience is separate from our intellect. We can accept something as being true intellectually, but is has no impact on our conscience.

Perhaps more importantly, our conscience can be corrupted. I am thinking now of the ancient prophets and their ranting about how the Hebrews had lost their Godly conscience. Isaiah, one of the earliest prophets railed at the loss of conscience by the people.
The prophet Isaiah spoke out against the deep spiritual decay and social corruption in the Kingdom of Judah during the 8th century BCE. His primary targets were spiritual rebellion, systemic injustice, empty religious hypocrisy, and the arrogant pursuit of political alliances instead of trusting in God. Exploitation: He condemned leaders who "grind the faces of the poor" and devour the houses of widows and orphans (Isaiah 3:14-15). Judicial Corruption: He spoke out against judges and officials who accepted bribes and denied justice to the marginalized (Isaiah 1:23, 5:23).Land Grabbing: He pronounced "woe" on the wealthy who bought up all the land and houses so that there was no room left for the poor
Meaningless Rituals: He declared that their prayers, offerings, and festivals were detestable to God because their hands were "full of blood" from oppressing others (Isaiah 1:11-15) Human Pride: He continually attacked the pride, haughtiness, and self-sufficiency of the nation, warning that all human arrogance would be humbled (Isaiah 2:11-17)
Hypocrisy: The people committed rampant sins—stealing, murder, adultery, and lying—while still claiming they were safe merely because they attended the temple. Isaiah was attempting to embarrass the Hebrew into resetting their conscience.

When the Hebrew went astray it was because they felt no guilt doing wrong..ie their consciences (souls) were corrupted.
Jeremiah
Oppression of the Vulnerable: Jeremiah 5 and 7 specifically condemn the rich and the judges for exploiting the poor, taking advantage of widows, and ignoring the needs of orphans and foreigners. Deception and Bribery: Truth had perished in the streets. Society was marked by deceit, slander, and a total inability to trust one another.
Ezekiel
Social Oppression and Violence: The shedding of innocent blood, extortion, and the systemic abuse of the vulnerable, including widows, orphans, resident foreigners, and the poor.
Corruption of Leaders: Princes and government officials acting like predatory wolves to gain dishonest wealth, and priests disregarding the Law and failing to distinguish between the holy and the profane. Corruption of Leaders: Princes and government officials acting like predatory wolves to gain dishonest wealth, and priests disregarding the Law and failing to distinguish between the holy and the profane.
In a famous passage (Ezekiel 16:49), Ezekiel attributed the destruction of Sodom to pride, abundance of food, idleness, and failing to help the poor, using it to parallel the arrogance of Jerusalem.
Amos
Often called the prophet of social justice, he fiercely denounced the elite for luxurious living built on the backs of the poor. He famously condemned those who "buy the poor for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals". He fiercely criticized the wealthy for exploiting the poor, trampling on the needy, and taking bribes. He famously declared, "Let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream!"

Even before moving on to Jesus who attacked the lack of conscience of the religious leaders of His time. All these Hebrew Bible examples equate fallen humans to those whose consciences had been corrupted.

It seems possible to me that the purity of our conscience toward God and our fellow man lies at the center of our most inner self...soul.

No, the Christian belief is that only God is eternal, and He resurrects saved human souls to immortality in heaven.

Another belief is that a human soul includes a body and spirit, which is made in the image of God because of God-consciousness and moral conscience (MFW) and may be either indwelt by the HS/GW or serve Satan.
 
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Look at Deuteronomy 11:18 carefully. WORDS are involved. The soul has to do with words! As I mentioned earlier, a living organism's soul is *information*. It can be precisely quantified. It can be SOLD to the highest bidder.

Who here has enough Wisdom to understand how words turn into flesh?

John 1:14 - And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

We know what that is now. Words encode protein. Those words, those letters, form a soul. Understand? Believe what God is teaching.

Going back to the Trinity/Tripartite being:
  1. Father
  2. Word
  3. Holy Ghost

  1. Body
  2. Soul
  3. Spirit
We have a match. And would you look at that? Word and Soul are synonymous.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Do you believe God has a soul? I do. God's soul is there in John 1:1. So simple a caveman can figure it out.
 
A living organism's soul is the so called 'dust'. Meditate on that for a moment. What exactly is dust? The only way to answer that question is to do some basic exegesis on that word. I'm not talking about a ten second Google search or a quick look in a concordance.

You must do the homework on this. What is dust symbolic of in the Bible? Find the answer and you will know exactly what a soul is.

Exegesis:

Genesis 13:16 - And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

Get it? What is seed?

Another:

Genesis 28:14 - And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

How does 'dust' turn into a living organsim?

Exodus 8:16 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.

Word became flesh, remember?

Numbers 23:10 - Who can count the dust of Jacob, and the number of the fourth part of Israel? Let me die the death of the righteous, and let my last end be like his!

'Dust' of Jacob?

Soul + Dust. They 'cleave' to one another.

Psalms 119:25 ד (DALETH). My soul cleaveth unto the dust: quicken thou me according to thy word.

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No, the Christian belief is that only God is eternal, and He resurrects saved human souls to immortality in heaven.

Another belief is that a human soul includes a body and spirit, which is made in the image of God because of God-consciousness and moral conscience (MFW) and may be either indwelt by the HS/GW or serve Satan.
I am always interest in"The Christian Belief." Seems to be about 45,000 different versions of that.
 
Who here has enough Wisdom to understand how words turn into flesh?



We know what that is now. Words encode protein. Those words, those letters, form a soul. Understand? Believe what God is teaching.

Going back to the Trinity/Tripartite being:
  1. Father
  2. Word
  3. Holy Ghost

  1. Body
  2. Soul
  3. Spirit
We have a match. And would you look at that? Word and Soul are synonymous.



Do you believe God has a soul? I do. God's soul is there in John 1:1. So simple a caveman can figure it out.
Interesting. Please expand on your concept of the difference between our "soul" and our "spirit."
 
Here is a cut / paste from my commentary on the Book of Daniel - chapter 9:


Part 1


Daniel 9:24 - To Bring in Everlasting Righteousness

Reconciliation, however, is not the final goal. God does not merely bring us back to neutral. He restores what the Fall stole: righteousness itself—life in harmony with His holiness. That is why Gabriel’s next words rise higher than forgiveness. “To bring in everlasting righteousness” is the climax of the sequence: the Messiah not only deals with sin; He returns righteousness to humanity through His own perfect life, His atoning death, and His indwelling Spirit.

In Daniel 9:24, God names transgression, sin, and iniquity—three expressions of humanity’s fallen condition, each describing a different depth of rupture with Him. They are not merely poetic variations. Together they trace the unraveling of righteousness that began with Adam. When Adam disobeyed, humanity was driven from the Garden—not only as a change of location, but as a spiritual severing from God’s presence. What was lost in that moment was greater than a home.

Righteousness itself was lost: the harmony of a life in union with God, the holiness of an undivided heart, and the divine life God had breathed into humanity at the beginning. Since that loss, no human effort—no system, ideology, or moral code—has been able to restore what was forfeited.

Human beings have always tried to define righteousness through human lenses. Societies often reduce it to moral decency—fairness, kindness, or living by some form of the golden rule. Such virtues can be admirable, but they fall short of God’s standard. Biblical righteousness is not merely being “good” by earthly measurement; it is being in complete harmony with God’s holiness, will, and character. It is not a cultural ideal. It is God’s own life and likeness expressed in the human soul.

That is why Scripture can say, “All our righteous acts are like filthy rags” (Isaiah 64:6). Even our best intentions are mingled with pride, self-interest, and imperfection. Human morality is relative and fluctuates across cultures and time. God’s righteousness is absolute, eternal, and rooted in His unchanging nature. And this is why Paul can declare the universal verdict: “There is none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3:10).

The fall produced spiritual death—separation from God that no amount of effort can undo. Sacrifices, rituals, religious zeal, and moral striving can expose the need for righteousness, but they cannot manufacture it. What humanity needed was not more instruction, but intervention. Not more law, but life. Not moral improvement, but spiritual rebirth.

This is why God’s plan always pointed to the Messiah. Jesus did not come merely to teach righteousness as an ideal; He came as righteousness incarnate. He lived in perfect alignment with the Father. In His life we see what righteousness truly is. In His death, sin is atoned for. And in His resurrection, the way back to what Adam lost is opened—not by human climbing, but by divine gift.

At the cross, an exchange took place that is almost beyond comprehension: “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21). This is the power of the gospel. Righteousness is not earned; it is received. It is not a reward for obedience, but the gift of grace. The righteousness of Christ is credited to those who place their faith in Him, so that God no longer regards the believer through the lens of sin, but through the perfect obedience of His Son.

And Daniel does not say simply “righteousness.” He says everlasting righteousness. This is not a temporary covering, and it is not a symbolic gesture. It is the restoration of what was lost in Eden—the reopening of the way back to the presence of God, not through ceremony, not through human effort, but through union with the One who fulfilled both the Law and the sacrifice.

Yet this everlasting righteousness unfolds in two movements. It is already present now as a declared reality: those who believe are justified and accepted, clothed in Christ’s righteousness, and given the Spirit who begins transforming them from within. And it is not yet revealed in its final fullness: the complete manifestation awaits Christ’s return, when sin and death are destroyed and God’s people are made whole in His presence. Until then, believers walk in a righteousness that is both given and growing—declared by faith and developed by the Spirit. Everlasting righteousness has been brought in. And when the Messiah returns, it will be seen without remainder.

In Genesis 2:7, we are given a clear and profound formula for how God created Adam as a living soul:

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

This verse reveals two essential components in the creation of humanity:

A – Dust from the ground (the physical body, with senses and the natural capacity for mind and consciousness)​
B – The breath of life (God’s Spirit / His holiness / His righteousness)​

There are only two components involved in making Adam: the dust of the earth and the divine breath of God. Nothing else. It is a simple equation: A + B = C, where C represents the living soul. This soul is not a third, separate entity that exists independently of A or B. If either component is removed, C ceases to exist. The soul does not fly away to another realm or continue to live in another form—it simply no longer is. Adam was a living soul only because the Spirit of God was placed by God into the dust.

Importantly, the “breath” that God breathed into Adam was not mere air or oxygen to jump-start a heartbeat. It was God’s Spirit, His righteousness, His holiness, His very presence.

This divine union is what set humanity apart from the rest of creation. It reflected God's image and likeness—not in biology, but in spiritual design and relational capacity. God placed His holiness within Adam. But when Adam disobeyed and sin entered the world, the consequence was not immediate physical death—but spiritual death. Adam was cast out of the Garden, not only physically removed from Eden but separated from God’s presence. The Spirit that once dwelled in him returned to its source, for there is no other place that can contain God’s holiness but God Himself. Adam had no holiness of his own—it was God's righteousness within him, and when that Spirit departed, he was left spiritually barren. This is the core of God’s plan of salvation: How will He place His righteousness—His Spirit—back into us so we can once again dwell in His presence?

Sin caused the divine-human relationship to fracture. Humanity lost its standing as “living souls” and became simply “living beings”—animated by breath, but lacking the indwelling Spirit of God. Every person born after Adam—born outside the Garden—is born into this condition: physically alive, but spiritually empty. This loss of spiritual life is precisely what happened to the Jews who rejected their Messiah. When they crucified Jesus, they rejected the One who came to restore the Spirit within them. In response, God allowed desolation to fall—not just upon their city or Temple—but upon their spiritual relationship with Him. For 2,000 years (the time of the Gentiles), this estrangement has remained in place. Yet God’s mercy did not end there. His plan of salvation, fulfilled in Jesus Christ, was always about restoring what was lost in Eden. Through Jesus’ sacrificial death and resurrection, He made a way for us to be reconciled to God. Through faith in Christ, we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, who now dwells within us and empowers us to live in righteousness—not by our strength, but by His.

The restoration of God's righteousness and Spirit within us is the only way to once again become a living soul—a being in true communion with God. This is not just a future promise but a present reality for every believer. And one day, when Christ returns, the full restoration will be complete: no longer just the Spirit dwelling in us, but we will dwell with Him—face to face, just as it was in Eden. Consequently, we do not have His Spirit, His holiness, or His righteousness within us. There is nothing innate in us—nothing spiritual—that continues on after we die. Our body returns to the dust from which it came, and without the Spirit of God, we cease to be living souls.

This is the tragic result of sin: spiritual separation from the Giver of life. In response, God established the Torah and its sacrificial system as a temporary measure of reconciliation between Himself and His people. These rituals were not an end in themselves, but a foreshadowing of the ultimate sacrifice—the one that Jesus would offer on the cross. His death brought about a once-and-for-all atonement, offering everlasting forgiveness and spiritual restoration to all who believe.
Beautiful analysis. If God breathed His spirit into Adam, then sent the serpent and God's spirit living in Adam was insufficient to maintain God's spirit, why?
 
Beautiful analysis. If God breathed His spirit into Adam, then sent the serpent and God's spirit living in Adam was insufficient to maintain God's spirit, why?
I apologize but not sure I fully understand your question. I think you might be asking if God placed His Spirit into Adam then why was he not able to reject the serpent’s deception.

And if so, what a terrific question!!! And of course, I do not have the answer but I can offer a few thoughts that might trigger others to bring in much better ideas.

I think the most important thing is that God breathing into Adam His spirit or holiness WAS sufficient for him to obey. But it was never a gift that was meant to take away his choice. Remember, God gave Adam a “command” not to eat of the tree of good and evil, thus telling us Adam was not a “holy robot.” He was first made “biological” from the dirt of the ground, but there was a second step that was not given to any other creature- He breathed into Adam bearing His image, now capable of communion, obedience, moral judgment WITH HIM. This was not given to any other creature.

So the command in 2:17 revealed he had the real possibility of obedience and disobedience and everything necessary to obey WITHOUT FORCE.

Adam was given this special life and had His holiness within him but he was not God possessing self sustaining holiness. His righteousness required him to continue in that God given holy relationship. He had to continue living in that trusting, loving relationship with God. And it would be the serpents method of attack. In 3:1 he attacked the “trust” in their relationship.

And perhaps later we might even expand this discussion by bringing in Eve since she certainly was a very big part in this. Did Adam place his trust in Eve over God?

Well, hope this might start some discussion. Thanks.
 
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I am always interest in"The Christian Belief." Seems to be about 45,000 different versions of that.

What is yours?

Mine is this:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).
 
What is yours?

Mine is this:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).
So are you are you speaking for all 45,000 positions or on your own personal understanding?
 
I apologize but not sure I fully understand your question. I think you might be asking if God placed His Spirit into Adam then why was he not able to reject the serpent’s deception.

And if so, what a terrific question!!! And of course, I do not have the answer but I can offer a few thoughts that might trigger others to bring in much better ideas.

I think the most important thing is that God breathing into Adam His spirit or holiness WAS sufficient for him to obey. But it was never a gift that was meant to take away his choice. Remember, God gave Adam a “command” not to eat of the tree of good and evil, thus telling us Adam was not a “holy robot.” He was first made “biological” from the dirt of the ground, but there was a second step that was not given to any other creature- He breathed into Adam bearing His image, now capable of communion, obedience, moral judgment WITH HIM. This was not given to any other creature.

So the command in 2:17 revealed he had the real possibility of obedience and disobedience and everything necessary to obey WITHOUT FORCE.

Adam was given this special life and had His holiness within him but he was not God possessing self sustaining holiness. His righteousness required him to continue in that God given holy relationship. He had to continue living in that trusting, loving relationship with God. And it would be the serpents method of attack. In 3:1 he attacked the “trust” in their relationship.

And perhaps later we might even expand this discussion by bringing in Eve since she certainly was a very big part in this. Did Adam place his trust in Eve over God?

Well, hope this might start some discussion. Thanks.
Thoughtful. However, you crept up to the the line I am interested in examining without stepping over. My summary of your thoughtful note is that God created everything, "and it was good." Thus everything else in God's creation had no ability to sin against God+ except mankind. God+ created mankind uniquely in His image but capable of sinning. That was Their plan from the beginning. Then they exposed him to sin and thus condemned him forever when he failed.

Does this circular unsolvable mystery demonstrate the rest of what we know about God, or is it a 7th century BC explanation of why EL who originally reigned in heaven above YHWH gave land to the Hebrews?

Obviously, what God created and declared as "good" was soon not "good" and was sooo bad, God repented that He ever created the earth and all life on the earth. He repented that He let biological men leave heaven to breed with earthly women. Thus every living thing on earth must be destroyed. Suddenly, all God's creation was "bad."

Again, does this rephasing of the Sumerian flood myth seem more like the God we have come to know or just another fable illustrating the Hebrew's right to to the land granted by El Shaddai, El Ylon and much later YHWH. It requires a more single-minded dedication to a creation myth than I possess.

I love the story. I love the images. I love the bazar ideal of early Hebrews and their surrounding nation states struggling to rationalize human existence and search for inherent value in humanity. It was the very best the Sumerians, Akkadians, Canaanites and Hebrews could come up with to explain human existence and their justification for the land they inhabited. The Hebrews were never originally monotheistic and neither were their neighbors. There is no historic data that the Hebrews even knew of the Torah until sometime in the 3rd century BC. Jeremiah said the Hebrews have as many gods as they have towns (villages). Whatever the Hebrews of their time thought about Genesis it did not lead to any significant understanding of God as anything but their judge and punisher. IMHO the riddles and inconsistencies of the early Genesis account written 3,000 yrs after the supposed happenings is a moral tale and one that attempts to attach God's dignity to human life. It's single eternal value is that it establishes that man has God given rights and a purpose in life and that on some level we can intellectually come to know the God of creation.
 
Thoughtful. However, you crept up to the the line I am interested in examining without stepping over. My summary of your thoughtful note is that God created everything, "and it was good." Thus everything else in God's creation had no ability to sin against God+ except mankind. God+ created mankind uniquely in His image but capable of sinning. That was Their plan from the beginning. Then they exposed him to sin and thus condemned him forever when he failed.

Does this circular unsolvable mystery demonstrate the rest of what we know about God, or is it a 7th century BC explanation of why EL who originally reigned in heaven above YHWH gave land to the Hebrews?

Obviously, what God created and declared as "good" was soon not "good" and was sooo bad, God repented that He ever created the earth and all life on the earth. He repented that He let biological men leave heaven to breed with earthly women. Thus every living thing on earth must be destroyed. Suddenly, all God's creation was "bad."

Again, does this rephasing of the Sumerian flood myth seem more like the God we have come to know or just another fable illustrating the Hebrew's right to to the land granted by El Shaddai, El Ylon and much later YHWH. It requires a more single-minded dedication to a creation myth than I possess.

I love the story. I love the images. I love the bazar ideal of early Hebrews and their surrounding nation states struggling to rationalize human existence and search for inherent value in humanity. It was the very best the Sumerians, Akkadians, Canaanites and Hebrews could come up with to explain human existence and their justification for the land they inhabited. The Hebrews were never originally monotheistic and neither were their neighbors. There is no historic data that the Hebrews even knew of the Torah until sometime in the 3rd century BC. Jeremiah said the Hebrews have as many gods as they have towns (villages). Whatever the Hebrews of their time thought about Genesis it did not lead to any significant understanding of God as anything but their judge and punisher. IMHO the riddles and inconsistencies of the early Genesis account written 3,000 yrs after the supposed happenings is a moral tale and one that attempts to attach God's dignity to human life. It's single eternal value is that it establishes that man has God given rights and a purpose in life and that on some level we can intellectually come to know the God of creation.
Thank you for your thoughts!

I think we are starting from two very different assumptions. You seem to read Genesis as an ancient religious myth or moral tale. I read it as divine revelation given through real theological history.

I do not believe God created Adam sinful or forced him to fail. God created Adam good, breathed life into him, placed him in relationship, and gave him a real command. Adam’s ability to disobey does not make God unjust; it shows Adam was not a machine. Love, trust, and obedience must involve real moral freedom. Also, Genesis does not say God condemned Adam forever with no hope. In the same chapter where judgment falls, God gives the promise of the Seed who would crush the serpent. So Genesis is not merely about punishment; it is the beginning of redemption.

Creation was “good” because God made it good. It became corrupted through rebellion, not because God created evil. That is the distinction I think your reading misses. Freedom to sin is not the same thing as being created sinful. Genesis does not present God as trapping Adam; it presents Adam as distrusting God and choosing another voice.
 
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So are you are you speaking for all 45,000 positions or on your own personal understanding?

W'all billions of people in the world have our own understandings,
and I invite you to share yours, especially regarding how it compares (agrees and/or disagrees)
with the five points of mine (in post #29).

One point at a time will be fine. :cool:
 
Thank you for your thoughts!

I think we are starting from two very different assumptions. You seem to read Genesis as an ancient religious myth or moral tale. I read it as divine revelation given through real theological history.

I do not believe God created Adam sinful or forced him to fail. God created Adam good, breathed life into him, placed him in relationship, and gave him a real command. Adam’s ability to disobey does not make God unjust; it shows Adam was not a machine. Love, trust, and obedience must involve real moral freedom. Also, Genesis does not say God condemned Adam forever with no hope. In the same chapter where judgment falls, God gives the promise of the Seed who would crush the serpent. So Genesis is not merely about punishment; it is the beginning of redemption.

Creation was “good” because God made it good. It became corrupted through rebellion, not because God created evil. That is the distinction I think your reading misses. Freedom to sin is not the same thing as being created sinful. Genesis does not present God as trapping Adam; it presents Adam as distrusting God and choosing another voice.
I know this narrative by heart. Sin entered the garden and either God+ designed it that way or could not keep sin out to the garden. Either way God+ seems to be surprised at Adam and Eve's sin. That same God is surprised again by his male angels leaving heaven coming to earth to breed with women (read the three compositions that we call Enoch) that is part to the same story. That God was frustrated and angry about how things turned out. He temporally lost control. So the same God that had no foreknowledge of what Adam and Eve would do also had no foreknowledge of what His male angels would do and the horrible result of their massive sins.

His frustration means He was not in control. He could not control the activity of angels or of mankind. So according to the 7th-4th century BC authors, God acted exactly like the gods of ancient Samaria and Akkad and decided He had to destroy not only all mankind by all animal kind with a world wide floor that lasted 377 days, but then God remembered that thousands of yrs later there would be such a thing as clean and unclean animals so He protected them and put extras of them on Noah's ark.

Does this sound like the all knowing all powerful and all loving God we have come to know or the invention of ancient writers attempting to justify their male dominant society and their "right" to the land on which they lived because "God gave it to them?" The God of Genesis is no more powerful than the gods of the Sumerians, Akkadians and Canaanites but they did much of the same things.

The Hebrew Bible is full of allegory. Certain passages in the Old Testament are explicitly written as allegories or extended metaphors by the original authors.Ezekiel 17 (The Eagles and the Vine): The prophet Ezekiel tells a story about two eagles and a vine. The first eagle represents the King of Babylon, and the vine represents the lineage of King David, illustrating Israel's political unfaithfulness in turning to Egypt. Ecclesiastes 12: The decay of a person’s body in old age is poetically described as darkened celestial bodies, failing watchmen, and grinding stones.Proverbs: Many proverbs utilize emblematic parallelism to present allegorical truths about wisdom and folly. Allegory assigns hidden, symbolic meanings that are often disconnected from the original historical context.

Perhaps letting the Jews themselves describe these differences would be instructive.

 
I know this narrative by heart. Sin entered the garden and either God+ designed it that way or could not keep sin out to the garden. Either way God+ seems to be surprised at Adam and Eve's sin. That same God is surprised again by his male angels leaving heaven coming to earth to breed with women (read the three compositions that we call Enoch) that is part to the same story. That God was frustrated and angry about how things turned out. He temporally lost control. So the same God that had no foreknowledge of what Adam and Eve would do also had no foreknowledge of what His male angels would do and the horrible result of their massive sins.

His frustration means He was not in control. He could not control the activity of angels or of mankind. So according to the 7th-4th century BC authors, God acted exactly like the gods of ancient Samaria and Akkad and decided He had to destroy not only all mankind by all animal kind with a world wide floor that lasted 377 days, but then God remembered that thousands of yrs later there would be such a thing as clean and unclean animals so He protected them and put extras of them on Noah's ark.

Does this sound like the all knowing all powerful and all loving God we have come to know or the invention of ancient writers attempting to justify their male dominant society and their "right" to the land on which they lived because "God gave it to them?" The God of Genesis is no more powerful than the gods of the Sumerians, Akkadians and Canaanites but they did much of the same things.

The Hebrew Bible is full of allegory. Certain passages in the Old Testament are explicitly written as allegories or extended metaphors by the original authors.Ezekiel 17 (The Eagles and the Vine): The prophet Ezekiel tells a story about two eagles and a vine. The first eagle represents the King of Babylon, and the vine represents the lineage of King David, illustrating Israel's political unfaithfulness in turning to Egypt. Ecclesiastes 12: The decay of a person’s body in old age is poetically described as darkened celestial bodies, failing watchmen, and grinding stones.Proverbs: Many proverbs utilize emblematic parallelism to present allegorical truths about wisdom and folly. Allegory assigns hidden, symbolic meanings that are often disconnected from the original historical context.

Perhaps letting the Jews themselves describe these differences would be instructive.

I have no idea that one could interpret the Scriptures the way you do. But that also tells me that there must be many more that interpret them the same because you do not live in a vacuum and you and others must have been taught these things.

However, everyone is entitled to their own thoughts, opinions and interpretations. No need to paste a long winded definition of a parable- I understand it’s purpose, and adding its definition does not add to or support your interpretations.

You speak of a God that I know nothing about. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Messiah, Jesus, is the only One I know and believe in. He is always in control, and is the only holy One in the universe (that He created).

I wish you the best but we are going to have to part ways here. Thanks.
 
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I have no idea that one could interpret the Scriptures the way you do. But that also tells me that there must be many more that interpret them the same because you do not live in a vacuum and you and others must have been taught these things.

However, everyone is entitled to their own thoughts, opinions and interpretations. No need to paste a long winded definition of a parable- I understand it’s purpose, and adding its definition does not add to or support your interpretations.

You speak of a God that I know nothing about. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and His Messiah, Jesus, is the only One I know and believe in. He is always in control, and is the only holy One in the universe (that He created).

I wish you the best but we are going to have to part ways here. Thanks.
Sorry to see you go without engaging in the book of Genesis that was the foundation of the discussion. I am not espousing an "interpretation." I am asking if the God of the first few chapters of Genesis has any of the characteristics to which we ascribe to God of Emanuel. A sacrificial God quick to forgive and save. He is the loving saving God. The God who will immediately save any who call on His name. If I have erred in my summary account of the God of early Genesis, let me know.
 
Sorry to see you go without engaging in the book of Genesis that was the foundation of the discussion. I am not espousing an "interpretation." I am asking if the God of the first few chapters of Genesis has any of the characteristics to which we ascribe to God of Emanuel. A sacrificial God quick to forgive and save. He is the loving saving God. The God who will immediately save any who call on His name. If I have erred in my summary account of the God of early Genesis, let me know.
In your first paragraph you tell me you know this narrative by heart and then quickly make statements about God that begin with “either”. Either God designed.. sin, lost control, surprised by things including angels that fell and had interactions with humans.

He is a frustrated God, like those of Samaria, bring in the Book of Enoch, strange interpretations in Ezekiel, the Yod of Genesis is no more powerful than … questioning right that God gave Israel, male dominated society… you are all over the place not just in Genesis.

These are strange words and thoughts to me… so far from the Scriptures I read and trust. You clearly must know how your own thoughts and interpretations differ significantly from most other folks.
 
Sorry to see you go without engaging in the book of Genesis that was the foundation of the discussion. I am not espousing an "interpretation." I am asking if the God of the first few chapters of Genesis has any of the characteristics to which we ascribe to God of Emanuel. A sacrificial God quick to forgive and save. He is the loving saving God. The God who will immediately save any who call on His name. If I have erred in my summary account of the God of early Genesis, let me know.

Gen. 3:21 and 4:7 indicate a God who forgives/saves.