Separation of 7-Trumpets from 7-Seals
In verse Rev 6:16/17 we find what I think is, the next verse separator, from the purpose of the 7-Seals and the purpose of the 7-Trumpets.
Here is the full context of the 6th seal
Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
The thing of note, is the repetition of the statement of Wrath. Theologians say that repetition was used to signify emphasis (Look here, this is important).
In chapter 7 we find a few interesting items that for me seem to strongly point to the Great Multitude being Bride of Christ. But your saying, what about Rev 7:14 which you clearly referred to earlier
Rev 7:14 I answered, “Sir, you know. ”And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
I think, we may have created the problem, when we started referring to the 70th week as the “Great Tribulation”. We call it that because first we put everything (Seals, Trumpets, Bowls) into the 70th week period, and therefore decide to call it the “Great Tribulation Period”, when the prophets only actually called it “Jacob’s Time of Trouble”. Then we say the great multitude has to come out of Daniels 70th week, 7-year period. It is referred to as Circular logic or Circular Reasoning.
Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning is not a formal logical fallacy but a pragmatic defect in an argument, whereby the premises are just as much in need of proof, or evidence, as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade. Other ways to express this are that there is no reason to accept the premises unless one already believes the conclusion, or that the premises provide no independent ground or evidence for the conclusion.
Circular reasoning is often of the form: "A is true because B is true; B is true because A is true."
I am an Engineer by trade (I like numbers), and find a different approach a bit more logical. Assuming the Great Multitude is the Bride of Christ, and the full context describing the Great Multitude seems to fully support that assumption, then we know from 1 Cor 15:52, that the Bride of Christ is made up of those who have perish before us, as well as the living at the time of the gathering. Simple logic will tell us that the Great Multitude is probably made up of a greater number of perish people, than those who were living. The perished people could not have come out of The Great Tribulation, and God would not infer that, if the greater majority didn´t. But let’s look at the numbers. Below is a link that, might help put us in the % ball park of those who were in the perished category (see the table in the link for verification of the numbers I am using).
https://www.prb.org/articles/how-many-people-have-ever-lived-on-earth/
C minus B = estimated number of people born in last 70 yrs, present generation (117 – 108 = 9 billion still living), Note: estimated population right now is 7.8 billion, so this number is in the ballpark, and if anything, it is on the higher end as some have perished prior to age 70 (it would equate to about 13% of those born in this 70 year period have perished).
You can do the remaining percentage math, but I will tell you the percent alive today is 15% versus 85% that have perished from the time of Christ until now. We can debate accuracy of numbers, and skewing of # of Christians today versus then, but even if we too very generously double the percentage alive today (there is no real basis to be that extreme), versus those who perished, it would be 30% alive versus 70% perished.
The simple point is that the vast majority (generously more than 2 to 1), of the “Great Multitude” would have perished, and not have come out the 70th week of Daniel. Therefore, it is not logical to assume the term, “The Great Tribulation”, is the same as the 70th week of Daniel, based on this verse.
I think this is a poor assumption which has probably attributed to some distraction and division in the Church. And who would most benefit from any distraction and division in the Church? Hint; He once said; surely you won´t die!! The Great Deceiver
Getting back to the separation between the 7-Seals and the 7 Trumpets, it appears the Bride of Christ is gathered prior to Chapter 7 of Revelation, which ends the Church Age. This would leave a time period between Chapter 7 (Completion of Church age) and Chapter 10 (Start of 70th week of Daniel), which would be comprised of the 7-Trumpets/7-Thunders. This period could be called the time of God´s Wrath against the World at large, when God delivers his Wrath against the world for their unbelief.
This would potentially give us a revised perspective of 3 periods (or sections) in the Book of Revelation. The 1st period is the Church Age thru Chapter 7 which would include the 7 Letters to the 7-Churches and the unsealing of the 7-Seals (we will discuss the seals shortly). This is followed by the 2nd period of God´s Wrath, toward the unbelieving world, consisting of the 7-Trumpets and 7 (sealed) Thunders in Chapters 8 and 9. We see this in the specifics of the 6-Trumpet wrath judgements, and the indicated partial destruction of the world and its inhabitants. The 3rd period is the 70th week (7 years) of Daniel, and the more accurately termed, “Time of Jacob´s Trouble”. Jacob´s trouble is about Jacob - the Jews, acceptance of the False Messiah (and what follows) which is a proper continuation of the 69th week of the Jews rejection of the True Messiah.
continued in Part 4
In verse Rev 6:16/17 we find what I think is, the next verse separator, from the purpose of the 7-Seals and the purpose of the 7-Trumpets.
Here is the full context of the 6th seal
Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
The thing of note, is the repetition of the statement of Wrath. Theologians say that repetition was used to signify emphasis (Look here, this is important).
In chapter 7 we find a few interesting items that for me seem to strongly point to the Great Multitude being Bride of Christ. But your saying, what about Rev 7:14 which you clearly referred to earlier
Rev 7:14 I answered, “Sir, you know. ”And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
I think, we may have created the problem, when we started referring to the 70th week as the “Great Tribulation”. We call it that because first we put everything (Seals, Trumpets, Bowls) into the 70th week period, and therefore decide to call it the “Great Tribulation Period”, when the prophets only actually called it “Jacob’s Time of Trouble”. Then we say the great multitude has to come out of Daniels 70th week, 7-year period. It is referred to as Circular logic or Circular Reasoning.
Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with. The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Circular reasoning is not a formal logical fallacy but a pragmatic defect in an argument, whereby the premises are just as much in need of proof, or evidence, as the conclusion, and as a consequence the argument fails to persuade. Other ways to express this are that there is no reason to accept the premises unless one already believes the conclusion, or that the premises provide no independent ground or evidence for the conclusion.
Circular reasoning is often of the form: "A is true because B is true; B is true because A is true."
I am an Engineer by trade (I like numbers), and find a different approach a bit more logical. Assuming the Great Multitude is the Bride of Christ, and the full context describing the Great Multitude seems to fully support that assumption, then we know from 1 Cor 15:52, that the Bride of Christ is made up of those who have perish before us, as well as the living at the time of the gathering. Simple logic will tell us that the Great Multitude is probably made up of a greater number of perish people, than those who were living. The perished people could not have come out of The Great Tribulation, and God would not infer that, if the greater majority didn´t. But let’s look at the numbers. Below is a link that, might help put us in the % ball park of those who were in the perished category (see the table in the link for verification of the numbers I am using).
https://www.prb.org/articles/how-many-people-have-ever-lived-on-earth/
- The estimated number of people ever born prior to 1 C.E. is given as 55,019,222,125 (say 55 billion). This represents the total born before Jesus Christ in 1 C.E.
- The estimated number ever born prior to yr 1950 is given as 107,901,175,171 (say 108 billion). This represents the total born inclusive of those born prior to 1 C.E., up to 1950 (70 years ago)
- The estimated number ever born prior to yr 2020 is given as 116,761,402,413 (say 117 billion)
C minus B = estimated number of people born in last 70 yrs, present generation (117 – 108 = 9 billion still living), Note: estimated population right now is 7.8 billion, so this number is in the ballpark, and if anything, it is on the higher end as some have perished prior to age 70 (it would equate to about 13% of those born in this 70 year period have perished).
You can do the remaining percentage math, but I will tell you the percent alive today is 15% versus 85% that have perished from the time of Christ until now. We can debate accuracy of numbers, and skewing of # of Christians today versus then, but even if we too very generously double the percentage alive today (there is no real basis to be that extreme), versus those who perished, it would be 30% alive versus 70% perished.
The simple point is that the vast majority (generously more than 2 to 1), of the “Great Multitude” would have perished, and not have come out the 70th week of Daniel. Therefore, it is not logical to assume the term, “The Great Tribulation”, is the same as the 70th week of Daniel, based on this verse.
I think this is a poor assumption which has probably attributed to some distraction and division in the Church. And who would most benefit from any distraction and division in the Church? Hint; He once said; surely you won´t die!! The Great Deceiver
Getting back to the separation between the 7-Seals and the 7 Trumpets, it appears the Bride of Christ is gathered prior to Chapter 7 of Revelation, which ends the Church Age. This would leave a time period between Chapter 7 (Completion of Church age) and Chapter 10 (Start of 70th week of Daniel), which would be comprised of the 7-Trumpets/7-Thunders. This period could be called the time of God´s Wrath against the World at large, when God delivers his Wrath against the world for their unbelief.
This would potentially give us a revised perspective of 3 periods (or sections) in the Book of Revelation. The 1st period is the Church Age thru Chapter 7 which would include the 7 Letters to the 7-Churches and the unsealing of the 7-Seals (we will discuss the seals shortly). This is followed by the 2nd period of God´s Wrath, toward the unbelieving world, consisting of the 7-Trumpets and 7 (sealed) Thunders in Chapters 8 and 9. We see this in the specifics of the 6-Trumpet wrath judgements, and the indicated partial destruction of the world and its inhabitants. The 3rd period is the 70th week (7 years) of Daniel, and the more accurately termed, “Time of Jacob´s Trouble”. Jacob´s trouble is about Jacob - the Jews, acceptance of the False Messiah (and what follows) which is a proper continuation of the 69th week of the Jews rejection of the True Messiah.
continued in Part 4