Is Knowledge of the Original Languages Necessary for KJV Believers?

[ATG]

Therefore, I do not believe the physical act of being placed in water is what washes away our sins or obtains salvation.

That does not make water baptism unimportant. A genuine believer should naturally desire to be baptized when the opportunity is available, and believers should strive to obey all the commands given by Jesus and His followers under the New Covenant.

Well said. Whenever we make a commanded work necessary to become saved, we are nullifying the power and work of the Spirit and Jesus Himself to purge our sins:

Heb 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Gal 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Our hearts are made perfect before God by the Spirit, not by any commanded work of the flesh, whether outward circumcision, water baptism, or good works.

Keeping the commandments of God begins with salvation and sanctification. Salvation is not begun by keeping the commandments.

We are saved and delivered from our transgressions by grace through faith. We keep His commandments by the same grace through faith.

If we are transgressors, we have no grace nor faith toward God.

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
With keeping His commandments, we go on to perfection of doing all things that please Him, even as Jesus with the Father:

Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

We still obey God’s moral commands, such as not murdering, not stealing, not committing adultery, and not coveting.

Exactly, and this is the great error of having any faith alone, apart from our works. Not only is it the delusion of separating our soul from our deeds, but it also would justify us while doing evil.

ALl commanded works are good to do, but if we do evil, than all our works are condemned, and none of our righteousness of faith is remembered by God:

Jas 2:8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Eze 33:13
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

Yeah, they think they will do both good and evil works in this life and no matter how they live, they will be saved all because of a belief alone on Jesus as their Savior

Faith alone justification preaches that if we do evil, God only remembers our faith:

Eze 3:20
Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

 

[ATG]

They also say that the KJV are the inspired words of God. While I see the KJV as without error and a providential translation, I see the underlying Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek as the actual inspired words of God.

They certainly are the languages used for the Scriptures given by God to His prophets and apostles. However, that does not mean they are necessary for knowing the principles of Christ with repentance unto salvation and justification with God by Jesus Christ.

Since we must have faith toward God, that the original words of the language are preserved as first recieved and written, then we also can have faith toward God, that those original words are faithfully translated into all languages of man.

Mat 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The prophecy of jesus is not that all nations shall be witnessed by the original languages, but that all languages of the nations shall be translated with those original words of Scriptures.

And though I love and read the King James, and it is without grammatical error, there are certain areas that could be better translated doctrinally.

Original languages are good to know, if possible, but not necessary to read the original words of God given to His prophets and apostles.

The Bible is not the Koran, where they say we must read in Muhammed's original Arabic, in order to properly understand it.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Where the ESV Changes or Weakens Doctrine:​

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Part 4​

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#23. New Age, mystical, or occult terminology and associations appear in certain ESV readings and ESV Study Bible material.​

Proverbs 17:8​

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The KJV says:​

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“A gift is as a precious stone...”​

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The ESV says:​

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“A bribe is like a magic stone...”​

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A “precious stone” and a “magic stone” communicate very different concepts. The ESV introduces explicitly magical terminology.​

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Ephesians 4:6​

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The KJV says God is:​

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“above all, and through all, and in you all.”​

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The ESV says:​

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“over all and through all and in all.”​

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The KJV explicitly identifies the believers being addressed by saying “you.” The ESV removes that explicit second-person limitation. Read by itself, “God...in all” can more easily be used to support mystical or pantheistic ideas that God indwells everyone.​

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Matthew 2:1 and the ESV Study Bible​

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This example concerns the ESV Study Bible note, not the ESV Bible text itself.​

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The ESV Bible text says:​

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“wise men from the east.”​

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The Greek is:​

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μάγοι — magoi​

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The ESV Study Bible explanation recognizes that the term could refer to people associated with astrology, magic, dream interpretation, or learned/wisdom traditions.​

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Crossway itself likewise explains that magos can refer to a practitioner of magic, but it can also have the broader sense of wise men or astrologers in Matthew 2.​

#24. Matthew 5:44 — The specific instruction concerning those who “despitefully use you” is removed.​

The KJV says:​

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“Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.”​

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The ESV retains the instruction to pray for those who “persecute you.” It also contains the corresponding commands to love enemies, do good to those who hate, bless those who curse, and pray for those who abuse in Luke 6:27–28.​

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Therefore, the particular expression that is not preserved is:​

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“despitefully use you.”​

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The KJV expressly identifies this particular form of mistreatment in addition to persecution.​

#25. Hebrews 12:28 — “Godly fear” is changed to “awe.”​

The KJV says:​

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“serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.”​

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The ESV says:​

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“offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe.”​

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“Awe” can involve reverence, but it does not communicate the explicit concept of fear as directly as “godly fear.”​

#26. Several ESV readings alter or weaken statements concerning evil, wickedness, and the believer’s response to it.​

Psalm 101:3​

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KJV:​

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“I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes.”​

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ESV:​

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“I will not set before my eyes anything that is worthless.”​

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“Worthless” and “wicked” are not the same moral category. Something can be worthless without being sinful, while something wicked can possess considerable worldly value.​

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2 Thessalonians 3:3​

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KJV:​

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“keep you from evil.”​

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ESV:​

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“guard you against the evil one.”​

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The KJV gives the broader statement of being kept from evil, whereas the ESV limits the immediate object to the evil one.​

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Ephesians 5:11​

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KJV:​

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“but rather reprove them.”​

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ESV:​

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“but instead expose them.”​

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To expose something is to reveal or bring it to light. To reprove involves rebuke, correction, or expressing disapproval. The concepts can overlap, but they are not the same instruction. One is more personal and the other can impersonal.​

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Psalm 10:5​

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KJV:​

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“His ways are always grievous.”​

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ESV:​

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“His ways prosper at all times.”​

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Even if “prosper” is intended descriptively rather than approvingly, these are dramatically different descriptions of the wicked man’s ways.​

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#27. Galatians 5:12 — “Cut off” is changed to “emasculate themselves,” turning exclusion into bodily mutilation.​

The KJV says:​

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“I would they were even cut off which trouble you.”​

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The ESV says:​

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“I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!”​

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The Greek word ἀποκόψονται, from ἀποκόπτω, has the broader meaning “to cut off” or “cut away.” Older Greek-Latin lexical evidence glosses ἀποκόπτω with Latin amputo.​

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Importantly, Lewis & Short does not define amputo as “castrate.” It gives the broader senses “to cut around, cut away or off, lop off, prune.” The older lexical evidence therefore does not require the specific meaning of self-castration.​

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In context, I understand Paul to be wishing that these false teachers would be cut off from the fellowship of the believers they were troubling, not that they would physically mutilate themselves.​

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Greek even has the more explicit verb εὐνουχίζω, meaning “to make a eunuch,” which appears in Matthew 19:12. Paul does not use that word here.​

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The ESV therefore takes a particular interpretation and puts the graphic idea of self-castration directly into Paul’s mouth. This also creates an unnecessary apparent conflict with Christ’s commands to love our enemies and pray for those who mistreat and persecute us. The KJV’s “cut off” preserves the actual breadth of the Greek and naturally allows the sense of being cut off from fellowship, rather than making Paul wish bodily mutilation upon his opponents.​

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Also, I strive to define the Hebrew and Greek words here by the older lexicons (Stephanus, Scapula, Buxtorf, etc.) and looking to the Latin dictionaries that these older lexicons use to define the biblical languages. The reason for this is that German Rationalism (which began more prominently in the 1750s) influenced the later lexicons in the 1800s by introducing new, expanded definitions. Some of these expanded definitions in modern lexicons are not always grounded in actual historical usage of the original languages themselves. I am still researching the extent of bad influence by the modern lexicons of our day.


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[CS1]

You are quoting a Bible verse! That right there proves salvation is not solely by Jesus if you have to use a Bible verse to prove your point. What you would need is like, "Oh, Jesus is sitting right next to me and He is tell me to say this to you." etcetera. We know about how to believe and what to believe involving salvation because of the Bible. We would not know of the gospel or salvation in Jesus without the Bible as our primary source or guide. Even if you quoted early church writers, they are quoting Scripture as their authority when it comes to salvation. Did you not read in the Scriptures when Peter said the following words to Jesus? "Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." (John 6:68). Did Jesus rebuke Peter?


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John 14:6 is a statement by Jesus Himself which is written in the Greek as an imperative. Jesus is the only way to the Father. we must place our faith Soley in Him to be saved. You would not know Jesus without the Conviction of the Holy Spirit from hearing the Gospel of The Lord Jesus Christ preached. That Same Jesus told Peter when Jesus asked who do men say that I am Peter said "You are the Christ the Son of the Living God." Jesus said flesh and blood did not reveal this to him. Matthew 16:16.

You do not believe Jesus is the only salvation?

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

John 14:6 is a statement by Jesus Himself which is written in the Greek as an imperative. Jesus is the only way to the Father. we must place our faith Soley in Him to be saved. You would not k ow Jesus without the Conviction of the Holy Spirit from hearing the Gospel of The Lord Jesus Christ preached. That Same Jesus told Peter when Jesus asked who do men say that I am Peter said "You are the Christ the Son of the Living God." Jesus said flesh and blood did not reveal this to him. Matthew 16:16.

You do not believe Jesus is the only salvation?

Jesus and His words are both the paths to salvation. The Bible teaches the Trinity, right? So if that is the case, then ultimately, the words of God is what we read about God and Jesus to know the way of salvation involving Jesus. You would not know of Jesus is the way the truth and the life without that Bible verse telling you that. If you had no verse, you wouldn't know that.

Again, did Jesus rebuke Peter for saying that He had the words of eternal life?

Jesus Himself even said that his words are spirit and they are life. Do you not believe those words in Scripture or are you of the belief that you talk with Jesus and have dreams where He speaks to you, etcetera?



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[Bible_Highlighter]

John 14:6 is a statement by Jesus Himself which is written in the Greek as an imperative. Jesus is the only way to the Father. we must place our faith Soley in Him to be saved. You would not know Jesus without the Conviction of the Holy Spirit from hearing the Gospel of The Lord Jesus Christ preached. That Same Jesus told Peter when Jesus asked who do men say that I am Peter said "You are the Christ the Son of the Living God." Jesus said flesh and blood did not reveal this to him. Matthew 16:16.

You do not believe Jesus is the only salvation?

You want to put a piece of duct tape on Jesus' mouth and tell Him not to speak and that His words do not save and it is only Him that saves. That would be insane if you actually encountered Jesus and tried to do that. This is why your comment here is totally illogical and insane on multiple levels. We are even born again by the words of the Lord. Ever read 1 Peter 1:23-25 before?

1 Peter 1:23-25
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

Can you be saved without being born again? Jesus doesn't seem to think so according to John chapter 3.

Hint: Being born again of water is another way of saying what 1 Peter 1:23-25 is saying. Ephesians 5:25-27 says that there is the washing of the WATER of the Word. So the word (like Scripture) is related to water and Jesus is saying you need to be born again of the word of God just as Peter said so.


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[CS1]

Jesus and His words are both the paths to salvation. The Bible teaches the Trinity, right? So if that is the case, then ultimately, the words of God is what we read about God and Jesus to know the way of salvation involving Jesus. You would not know of Jesus is the way the truth and the life without that Bible verse telling you that. If you had no verse, you wouldn't know that.

Again, did Jesus rebuke Peter for saying that He had the words of eternal life?

Jesus Himself even said that his words are spirit and they are life. Do you not believe those words in Scripture or are you of the belief that you talk with Jesus and have dreams where He speaks to you, etcetera?



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Jesus is the Word. John chapter 1. The concept of the Trinity is clearly seen yes in the word of God. Again, there is General Revelation which Gods creation that testify to his Eternal Godhead. There is Special Revelation which is the Word of God . Then there is relationship with Jesus through salvation and the Holy Spirit. The Bible did not save us Nor did the Bible deny on the Cross Salvation is in no other But Christ. Yes we knw by word, and relationship. Saved by Grace through faith.

YOU do not beleive Jesus is the only salvation yes or no as the word of God says and your walk testifies too?

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

John 14:6 is a statement by Jesus Himself which is written in the Greek as an imperative. Jesus is the only way to the Father. we must place our faith Soley in Him to be saved. You would not know Jesus without the Conviction of the Holy Spirit from hearing the Gospel of The Lord Jesus Christ preached. That Same Jesus told Peter when Jesus asked who do men say that I am Peter said "You are the Christ the Son of the Living God." Jesus said flesh and blood did not reveal this to him. Matthew 16:16.

You do not believe Jesus is the only salvation?

Do you believe unitarians are saved or those who deny the Trinity?


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[CS1]

Do you believe unitarians are saved or those who deny the Trinity?


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anyone who places their trust in Jesus Chrst alone and repents and received from Him grace through faith in the death, burial and resurrection of The Lord Shall Be saved. The Trinity is a mystery that no man can fully understand or comprehend. God is to vast and unlimited.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

First we must be seeking God. Then we must recieve the truth of repentance toward God.

It's the Spirit of grace, that draws us to God by conviction of our sins.

The smooth lie, is that God only draws by love, and so reproving and judging evil doing, is rejected by the unrepentant as fault-finding and 'only seeking the worst in people".

1Ti 4:2
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Heb 10:28
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Jhn 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Mat 23:26
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Col 3:5
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

The first step only the Lamb can do, by taking away lust for sin and purifying the heart. We must do away with the sinful deeds of the body.

Mat 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sinning.

Jhn 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1Jo 3:5
And we know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

The two opposing gospels of works alone and faith alone salvation, leave sanctification unwhole: Works alone sanctifies the body only, but not the heart. Faith alone sanctifies the heart only, but not the body.

Works without faith in Jesus are dead works; And faith without works with Jesus is dead faith.

But when we repent of our deads for Jesus' sake, He sanctifies us wholly within, and as a whole new creature of God, we stanctify ourselves to Him and abstain from evil works;

2Co 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

1 Thess{5:22}
Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also doeth it.


2Co 1:12
For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.

The simplicty of Christ get lost, when we overthink the simple gospel message:

Acts{3:19}
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

If we repent of what we can do, then God takes away what we can't repent of: The lust of the world for sinning against God.

If we repent of our own evil deeds for Jesus' sake, then He comes to take away our sin, and we go on to do His will, and not our own.

Repent has various definitions. When God tells us man to repent it has a particular strong theme that most do not understand.

Here is my writeup on that:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

Note: It is still a work in progress as a writeup and I need to source things more.
But this has been my understanding on repentance for a long time now. I am still confident it is accurate because the Bible defines that word contextually in many places. Most just see the word in a lexicon and say, "That's what it means" or they heard some Pastor quoting a lexicon without them really searching the Scriptures for themselves on the matter with an in-depth study.
But
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[ATG]

or in trusting in the finished work of the cross.

This is a particularly devious, seductive, and devilish doctrine.

It's devious, because it implies knowledge of something, that they don't understand. It's seductive, because it preaches salvation and justification by Jesus' death alone. And it's devilish, because it would justify a soul, while doing bodily evil.

1. Jesus' finished work on the cross, is His death. He finished doing works on earth in the flesh. His reason for coming in the flesh, to dwell with men in grace and truth, was finished in death on a cross.

He did not finish any work of saving, justifying, and sanctifying any person on earth by unjustly crucifying Him. The hands that crucify Him are judged wicked, not innocent, and certainly not justified.

Act 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

2. Believing in His death for sins, does not justify any more than believing in one God: There is one true God, and Jesus died for our sins, whether we believe it or not. And if we only believe it, but do not repent of our sins for His sake, then we are doubly condemned for believing, but not doing the truth.

Jas 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

3. The greatest lie about 'trusting in the finished work of the cross', is that we had no part in it, and therefore we cannot have any part in our own salvation.

It's only because we have all sinned, that Jesus need come to die for our sins, and it's only because we crucified Him, that He died on a cross. God did not kill His own Son, nor did His law demand it, nor did Jesus kill Himself.

Sinful men and women are the cause and the means of Jesus coming in the flesh, and then being killed on a cross. No one that has sinned, can justly say that we played no part in Jesus' finished work on the cross, which we ended by unjust condemnation and execution.

His condemnation and death was not legal justified by God, but was against the law; Jesus was not guilty of blasphemy by calling Himself the Son of God:

Mar 14:64
Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

Some of them (not all) do not realize that the true good a believer can truly do is only by God doing the good work through a believer.

True.

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1 Cor{15:10}
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

So even if they did good works outwardly in this life, they are not doing the true good works of God by His doing the good work in them.

This is a corruption of doing all things through Christ. It's a corrupt false humility, as though we ourselves don't do the works at all.

Paul says I live: he still lives on earth, and so he himself is still doing works. He only gives honour and glory to Jesus, for having the faith, love, and power to do any good. And yet, he does the good works.

Acting as though we aren't doing the works at all, is so that we can say we ourselves are not doing the evil works, if we do them.

It's a delusional theology of separating our souls from the lives we live. It also corrupts the doctrine of the newbirth, by a soul resurrection into heaven forever, while our 'old' natural bodies remain on earth. So, while we are spiritually forever in heaven, our flesh still does works on earth, whether for good or evil, that we are no longer responsible for:

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ (and am risen into heaven): nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

It's combined with making Romans 7 double heartedness into a justification for doing both good and evil on earth. With our souls and minds resurrected into heaven, we serve God, but by our flesh on earth we serve sin and transgression...

The natural body becomes the 'old man of sin' on earth, while the inner man becomes the newly resurrected man in heaven.

2Th 2:10
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God would have to approve of them doing evil in order for them to believe they can sin and still be saved on some level. This is just not possible because God is good, righteous, and holy.

Exactly. If we are doing unrighteousness, and yet are justified by our Christ, then our Christ is an unrighteous judge:

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

It's the truth stated plainly, that we are what we do. It dismisses our of hand, one or another of the delusional doctrines, passed for 'mysteries' in Christ. Any mystery that makes us less responsible for our deeds, is not the true mystery of the Godhead of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost:

Rev 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Separating our souls from our lives, and our salvation from our works, is all the mystical product of a corrupted self-justifying mind and spirit.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

anyone who places their trust in Jesus Chrst alone and repents and received from Him grace through faith in the death, burial and resurrection of The Lord Shall Be saved. The Trinity is a mystery that no man can fully understand or comprehend. God is to vast and unlimited.

Of course Jesus saves. The question is: Does God use His Word as the means by which the gospel is communicated, faith comes, and a person is born again? According to 1 Peter 1:23–25, the answer is plainly "yes."

And John 1 does not change that. Jesus being personally called “the Word” does not mean that every biblical reference to “the word of God” is another name for Jesus personally. In 1 Peter 1:25, Peter specifically says, “this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”

You have not addressed 1 Peter 1:23–25, which explicitly says we are “born again… by the word of God,” and then identifies this with “the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.” You also have not addressed Romans 10:17, “faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God,” or Christ’s statement that “the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life” (John 6:63). Peter likewise said that Jesus has “the words of eternal life” (John 6:68).

Still crickets from you on these points in Scripture and you just keep inserting your own man-made filled thoughts on the matter.


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[Bible_Highlighter]

@ATG

You may be aware of this but here is my study on God working through a believer:

Who ultimately does the “good work” in a believer’s life?

(Abide in Christ)

Is it God?

Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6

“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:”

Philippians 1:11

“Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.”

Philippians 2:13

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”

Philippians 4:13

“I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.”

1 Corinthians 15:10

“But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.”

Hebrews 12:1-2

“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

Hebrews 13:21

“Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

Isaiah 26:12

“LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.”

1 John 4:12

“No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.”

Galatians 5:22-24

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”

Compare:

Matthew 7:16-18

“Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.”

Matthew 19:17

“And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”

John 15:5

“I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”

Ezekiel 36:26-27

“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus:

Revelation 4:10

“The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,”

For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too?

Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works:

Ephesians 2:10

“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

And a believer is indeed held accountable by their “good works” here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these “good works” alone or of their own power, though. We also not forced against our will to do good works by God's power. When a believer truly does good works genuinely, Scripture makes it clear that it is God working in a believer to do them.

For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said:

“But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.”

Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believers are just choosing to allow God's “good work” to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism as others may claim against me. I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them.

1 John 5:12

“He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.”

“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:” (Philippians 1:6).



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[Bible_Highlighter]

anyone who places their trust in Jesus Chrst alone and repents and received from Him grace through faith in the death, burial and resurrection of The Lord Shall Be saved. The Trinity is a mystery that no man can fully understand or comprehend. God is to vast and unlimited.

No. Those who deny Jesus is God are not going to make it. Jesus said if you do not believe I am he, you will die in your sins. Jesus also said before Abraham was... "I am." This was a clear reference to Exodus 3 when God said that He is the "I AM", which is the sacred name of God given to the Israelites forever.

Side Note:

So This means that by your belief, heretics such as JWs, and others like them who deny the deity of Jesus Christ are saved.
If so, you an extreme liberal. You need to start in deeply studying your Bible sometime. If you did, you would not say the Trinity is a mystery. You wouldn't say that a person can deny the Trinity and be saved. You cannot worship a false god and be saved.


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[Bible_Highlighter]

I did go through your links. The Middle English dictionary does list under “silence” - "(c) in ~, without speaking, silently; also, in a calm manner”. However, the references to justify that meaning seem to be the Bible verses we are assessing. This renders the argument for hEsuchia meaning “silence" somewhat circular. I.e. hEsuchia can be translated as silence in the KJV, because the Middle English dictionary lists “in silence" as meaning “in a calm manner, and hEsuchia means “in a calm manner”. However, the ME dictionary’s proof that “silence” in ME can mean “in a calm manner” is the KJV and other ME Bibles sometimes translating “hEsuchia" as “silence", and the Greek hEsuchia means “in a calm manner".

It seems we both agree, though, that for modern readers the KJV is misleading, unless one knows koinE Greek, because "in silence” nowadays denotes “refraining from speaking”. But if the KJV reader consults the Greek, they will see that the phrases are "in quietness/calmness” and "with quietness/calmness”, which do not denote "refraining from speaking.” I don’t know if there are any extra-biblical sources that use “silence" in a context that allows for the meaning of “calm conversation”, as "talking quietly” does. Do we have any references in ME literature of people “talking silently" ?

Here are two citations supporting the Middle English Dictionary’s definition of “silence” as including “habitual moderation in speaking, taciturnity.” These examples are especially useful because they come from extra-biblical Middle English literature and show that “silence” did not always mean complete abstention from speech.

The Middle English Dictionary gives this definition under “silence”:

“....also, habitual moderation in speaking, taciturnity...”​

MED entry:
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-english-dictionary/dictionary/MED40329

One particularly clear example comes from a Middle English version of the Rule of St. Benedict, dated roughly 1350–1420. In a section specifically explaining how “silence” is to be observed, it says:

“Sain benet spekis in þis sentence of silence, how ȝe sal it halde... for þi sal ȝe seldin speke...”​

That is essentially:

“Saint Benedict speaks in this section concerning silence, how you shall keep it... therefore you shall seldom speak.”​

The important point is that it says “seldom speak,” not “never speak.” In fact, the same passage goes on to say that the mistress ought to speak in order to teach her disciples wisdom. So the “silence” being described clearly allows appropriate speech while emphasizing restraint and moderation.

Source:
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/c/cme/AHA2736/1:1?rgn=div1;view=fulltext

There is another very interesting example from Tree & Fruits of the Holy Ghost (c.1460):

“gentil communicacioun medled with sad silens”​

This can be translated approximately as:

“gentle communication/conversation mingled with sober or restrained silence.”​

This example is particularly relevant because communication and silence are explicitly joined together in the same expression. That would be difficult to explain if “silence” necessarily meant the complete absence of speech.

This citation is listed directly in the MED entry for “silence”:

https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-english-dictionary/dictionary/MED40329

So I think these citations answer the circularity concern much better than relying only on biblical examples. They do not prove that “silence” always meant “calm conversation." However, these examples do provide independent Middle English evidence that “silence” could include restrained, limited, or moderated speech rather than necessarily total non-speaking.

That is the narrower historical-English point I was trying to establish.



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[ATG]

Who ultimately does the “good work” in a believer’s life?

Is it God?

Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

It's not God or the believer, but God and the believer.

1Sa 17:29
And David said, What have I now done? Is there not a cause?

God is the cause for our good works, we are the means for good works.

God can do good without man. God cannot do good with a man, without the man doing the work. No man can build a temple without a stone:

1Pe 2:4
To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

We don't need to pervert simple cause and effect, into some spiritual psychosis, where we have no part in the things we do.

Nor does it take a theological dissertation, to explain why we now do things for the Lord, when before we were trespassors and blasphemers: It's not the Lord's will, that we do.

Luk 8:21
And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

It's as simple and old as marriage being the cause to forsake the old life, and begin with the new:

Mat 19:5
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Eph 3:14
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

It's not God or the believer, but God and the believer.

1Sa 17:29
And David said, What have I now done? Is there not a cause?

God is the cause for our good works, we are the means for good works.

God can do good without man. God cannot do good with a man, without the man doing the work. No man can build a temple without a stone:

1Pe 2:4
To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

We don't need to pervert simple cause and effect, into some spiritual psychosis, where we have no part in the things we do.

Nor does it take a theological dissertation, to explain why we now do things for the Lord, when before we were trespassors and blasphemers: It's not the Lord's will, that we do.

Luk 8:21
And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

It's as simple and old as marriage being the cause to forsake the old life, and begin with the new:

Mat 19:5
And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Eph 3:14
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Yes, it is both working together, but ultimately God is the One who deserves the glory for those good works being worked through the believer. Why? Why did the 24 elders cast down their crowns before Jesus?

So while we must cooperate with the Lord doing the good work through us, we cannot boast in ourselves as if it was all us, either. It ultimately God's work moving through us.

Yes, a believer will be judged by what works they did for the Lord, and be held responsible, they still cannot pat themselves on the back by their doing those good works. It's like plugging an appliance into an electrical outlet. The appliance can work but not without the electricity.


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[BartholomewB]

This question has been on the rise a lot lately as if it was a gotcha type question.

However, Peter Gurry who is clearly for the Critical Text uses the term "modern" in reference to critical text English translations.

Gurry writes:

“It is one of a dozen or so verses that are completely missing … from modern English Bibles.”​

Source: https://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blogspot.com/2018/02/matt-1811-as-test-of-internal.html

He is discussing Matthew 18:11 and explicitly contrasting the KJV reading with modern Critical Text editions and translations. So even the Critical Text side accepts this term. It makes sense that they would use this term because the Critical Greek text did not exist until 1881 when Westcott and Hort smashed Vaticanus and Sinaiticus together. It was a never before seen Greek text until 1881 because it was the combining of the readings between two manuscripts. So it is a hypothetical guess as to what they believe the originals said based on just smashing these two manuscripts together. There is no actual proof that there was ever a Bible that had the exact readings as the Westcott and Hort 1881 Greek text or any of the later Nestle and Aland editions.

Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are said to be the best. However, these two manuscripts contain serious textual corruptions. For instance, both Vaticanus and Sinaiticus depict Jesus being pierced by a spear before His death on the cross (See Matthew 27:49-50), a reading that never appears in any English translation because it is an obvious contradiction. In Hebrews 1:3, Vaticanus omits the crucial phrase “by himself,” erasing the only New Testament reference to Christ personally purging our sins. On this same page, Vaticanus includes a marginal note that reads, ἀμαθέστατε καὶ κακέ, ἄφες τὸν παλαιόν, μὴ μεταποίει (“Fool and knave, can’t you leave the old reading alone and not alter it!”), revealing that even scribes recognized and objected that there was a textual corruption in progress. Moreover, Vaticanus and Sinaiticus disagree with each other in roughly three thousand places within the Gospels alone, which is hardly a mark of trustworthy or reliable witnesses. These manuscripts are far from the best, as many scholars claim. In fact, Vaticanus and Sinaiticus were virtually unknown throughout church history. Nobody copied these manuscripts. So the church did not use them throughout a large part of history.

Where the ESV Changes or Weakens Doctrine​

Part 1 of 3​

#1. Titus 3:10 — “Heretick” is changed to a person who “stirs up division.”​

The KJV says:​

​

“A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject.”​

​

The ESV says:​

​

“As for a person who stirs up division...”​

​

A person can stir up division for reasons other than doctrinal heresy. The KJV specifically identifies the doctrinal character of the offender.​

#2. Ephesians 5:30 — “Of his flesh, and of his bones” is removed.​

The KJV says:​

​

“For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.”​

​

The ESV says:​

​

“because we are members of his body.”​

​

The explicit flesh-and-bones language disappears.​

#3. Revelation 22:14 — “Do his commandments” is changed to “wash their robes.”​

The KJV says:​

​

“Blessed are they that do his commandments.”​

​

The ESV says:​

​

“Blessed are those who wash their robes.”​

​

These are completely different actions and therefore communicate different teachings within this verse.​

#4. Certain ESV readings can support Calvinistic teaching.​

1 Peter 2:8: The ESV says unbelievers stumble because they disobey the word:​

​

“as they were destined to do.”​

​

This can naturally support the Calvinistic interpretation that the wicked were destined to stumble in unbelief.​

​

Revelation 22:17: The KJV says:​

​

“whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”​

​

The ESV retains the concepts of desire and receiving the water “without price,” but it does not preserve the KJV’s exact and emphatic combination of “whosoever will” and taking the water of life “freely.”​

#5. The specific word “fornication” is replaced with the broader expression “sexual immorality.”​

​

“Fornication” identifies a particular category of sexual sin, whereas “sexual immorality” functions as a broader umbrella expression. The more specific terminology is therefore lost.​

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First, my warmest thanks for doing so much work on my behalf. When I asked for “a few” passages from the ESV, I was thinking of something like three or four. But you have produced no fewer than twenty-eight, counting the two halves of #3 separately! I was not only astounded to see the length of your list, but also filled with regret for not having explained more clearly what I was asking for. My apologies for that omission.

Also, I can assure you that my first question was not intended as a “gotcha.” I was simply asking, in all innocence, for a clarification. “Modern” is, after all, a pretty vague term that can mean almost anything, depending on the context. You have now given me a straight, unambiguous answer, namely anything later than 1881, that takes Westcott & Hort as the best edition of the GNT.

It will take me at least a full day to examine all your answers in detail, but for the time being here goes my reply to just one of them, your #5, “fornication” or “sexual immorality.” Everything I’ve seen on this question until now suggests that “sexual immorality” is the closer of the two to porneia, precisely because it covers a wider range of behaviors than “fornication” alone.

Thanks again, and I’ll get back to you again as soon as I can manage it.

 

[ATG]

Yes, it is both working together,

Not for those corrupting the word, by preaching a soul salvation separation from works.

By a pseudo- humility, they say they don't do the good works at all, in the name of giving God all the glory.

And if they don't do the works at all, then neither do they the evil works, and so are guiltless.

Of course, while they say it's God doing all the good work, they don't say who's doing those evil works being done.

It's the delusional theology for committing transgression with no condemnation. Likewise corrupting a life hid in Christ, so that it's not us doing the evil, but only our body. And they serve God with the mind, but sin and transgression only with the body.

Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who (are) walking after the flesh, (and) after the Spirit.

but ultimately God is the One who deserves the glory for those good works being worked through the believer.

True.

And it's the devil who has the fatherhood, if we are doing evil works:

1Jo 3:8
He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil is sinning from the beginning...In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is doing unrighteousness is not of God.

So while we must cooperate with the Lord doing the good work through us, we cannot boast in ourselves as if it was all us, either.

True again:

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The grace and faith of our salvation comes without any works to boast of.

The faith that comes without any works at all is dead. The faith that comes apart from our works is a lie.

2Th 2:10
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Yes, a believer will be judged by what works they did for the Lord, and be held responsible, they still cannot pat themselves on the back by their doing those good works. It's like plugging an appliance into an electrical outlet. The appliance can work but not without the electricity.
...

And ye, we are living thinking and willing vessels. All are works are judged the same as all people created in the image of God:

1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning in fear:

If we are found faithfully doing good in Christ Jesus, we are resurrected unto life with Jesus having the glory;

Rev 4:10
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

But and if we are found doing evil against our Lord, we are resurrected unto shame with us having the guilt.

Mat 24:48
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming, And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Bible_Highlighter]

Not for those corrupting the word, by preaching a soul salvation separation from works.

By a pseudo- humility, they say they don't do the good works at all, in the name of giving God all the glory.

And if they don't do the works at all, then neither do they the evil works, and so are guiltless.

Of course, while they say it's God doing all the good work, they don't say who's doing those evil works being done.

It's the delusional theology for committing transgression with no condemnation. Likewise corrupting a life hid in Christ, so that it's not us doing the evil, but only our body. And they serve God with the mind, but sin and transgression only with the body.

Rom 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who (are) walking after the flesh, (and) after the Spirit.




True.

And it's the devil who has the fatherhood, if we are doing evil works:

1Jo 3:8
He that is committing sin is of the devil; for the devil is sinning from the beginning...In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is doing unrighteousness is not of God.





True again:

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
The grace and faith of our salvation comes without any works to boast of.

The faith that comes without any works at all is dead. The faith that comes apart from our works is a lie.

2Th 2:10
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



And ye, we are living thinking and willing vessels. All are works are judged the same as all people created in the image of God:

1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning in fear:

If we are found faithfully doing good in Christ Jesus, we are resurrected unto life with Jesus having the glory;

Rev 4:10
The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

But and if we are found doing evil against our Lord, we are resurrected unto shame with us having the guilt.

Mat 24:48
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming, And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yes, in light of what OSAS folk believe, I can see some of them may twist the Scriptures to see it that way. I have not actually confirmed that myself personally, but makes sense that may think this way. Its been a while since I fought against OSAS on a regular basis. I have mostly been into the textual issues the last few years. There is a whole world that I did not know existed involving the KJV vs. Modern Bible issue. This also involves changes involving the original languages, as well. It's also very serious in my view. Revelation 22:18-19 comes to mind, which again disproves OSAS.

Side Note:

I prefer to get quotes of what folks actually say with a verified link. Second hand assessments (even my own) I would not expect people to trust like the original quoted source. I say this because there is what we may think a person means and that person might think something differently about their own words they stated. So I am a strong proponent for accurate representation of what a person actually says and I am for the truth. So if an OSAS believer says something immoral, I like to get their exact quote and refer others to it. This way they cannot later backtrack what they said or say that no OSAS believer would ever state things like that, etcetera.



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