Is Knowledge of the Original Languages Necessary for KJV Believers?

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Precious friend, agreed, since God Preserved His Precious AV Word Of Truth For

us, in our "own language", similar To This, eh?:​

"And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the​
Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of​
every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together,​
and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language."​

So, why, a simpleton may ask: "Why are some confounded today with the AV, and we really 'should
Go DEEPER' into/with the originals to get the true meanings of things"?

What about all the "language scholars" who Disagree with "each other" = Confusion Confounded???
[ Therefore, us simpletons { didn't Jesus Say: "...like little children..."? } will pass... ]

Especially with What Really Should Be "Simplicity In Christ", like this!:

If you are going to object to me looking at the underlying original languages in order to bring out a deeper meaning in Scripture, then you would also need to object to Lancelot Andrewes, one of the translators of the King James Bible.

In one of his sermons, while preaching on Hebrews 2:16, Andrewes called attention to the Greek word behind the KJV phrase “took on him.” The verse says, “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.” Andrewes pointed out that the Greek verb ἐπιλαμβάνεται carries the idea of taking hold of or laying hold of someone. He then compared it with Matthew 14:31, where Christ stretched forth His hand and “caught” Peter as he was sinking. The Greek word translated “caught” there, ἐπελάβετο, is a form of the same verb. Andrewes’s point was that Hebrews 2:16 is not merely presenting Christ as abstractly “taking on” something, but as vividly laying hold of the seed of Abraham, just as He physically laid hold of Peter to help him.

Andrewes was not correcting the English Bible. He was using the underlying Greek to bring out more fully the sense of the passage. By comparing the Greek word in Hebrews 2:16 with the same verb used when Christ “caught” Peter in Matthew 14:31, Andrewes showed that the Greek gives us a more vivid picture of what the verse is expressing.

That is the same kind of thing I am talking about when I look at the Hebrew or Greek for a deeper understanding of the text. Looking at the original languages does not require us to correct, reject, or undermine the KJV. It can simply help us see more clearly the richness and force of the words that underlie our English Bible.


Source:
Lancelot Andrewes — Christmas Day Sermon, 1605 (Hebrews 2:16)


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It's funny you brought up the word "prevent." I have argued endlessly with a fellow KJV defender named Bill Fortenberry on Facebook on the meaning of that word.

Bill Fortenberry’s Odd Stated Position on the word Prevent:
  1. Bill is not saying that “prevent” means “pure obstruction” detached from the anticipatory sense (See “Side Note” for anticipation).
  2. Bill says Prevent means either “preemption, forestalling, or hindrance” and all of them have an inherent sense of anticipation (preceding with the intent in forestalling another).
Side Note:

Anticipation:
1 a: a prior action that takes into account or forestalls a later action
hired more security guards in anticipation of a large crowd

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anticipation

Source for Bill Fortenberry’s Stated Position on Facebook for the Word Prevent:

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1DuEnHT71K/

Bill wrote a whole book on the topic, and I had ChatGPT analyze it.
According to the analysis by ChatGPT, he never really gives a clear definition like the one I got from Bill. It was only my engagement with him on that topic and asking and pushing did I get this definition out of him.
Bill is trying to enforce the modern meaning of stop into the older usage of the word "prevent." While there are some contextual cases that may include that idea at the time, the word "prevent" is primarily used back in the day as meaning "to precede."

In reality, the word "prevent" in the KJV just means "precede."

The word "let" in the KJV is different though.

Let can mean "restrain" and also to "allow." The underlying Greek and the context helps to determine which one is which.

Even in our modern English we have words that can have two different shades of meaning. Context and looking at the underlying original language word would help to determine what the meaning is.

In either case, I would still prefer using the KJV over a Modern Bible because my text is not mutilated with removing the Johannine Comma, double bracketing certain passages that says that the passage is not in there, the removal and changes of tons of verses that makes no sense. The issues you bring here are merely the case of older words that need to be learned. The KJV is not a Bible that you can just read casually and understand it instantly unless you have done the word studies or you are intimately familiar with 1600s English. But I would rather have somebody have the correct words of God than a corrupted form of it. People need to know how to fish. They should do word studies by looking to the older lexicons. Modern lexicons change the meaning of words at times. Modern Bibles constantly give you a conflicting mess of meanings between not only each other but within their own editions. Then the underlying Greek text for the Modern Bibles keeps shape-shifting and changing every few years. So there is no real settled word of God that you can trust. Plus it has a lot of bad and horrible readings. It's a dumpster fire.


Side Note:

I am creating a free educational comic that is sort of a rebuke of Bill's improper approach to understanding this word. It will also include other words by another fellow KJV defender who has invented an odd interpretation on the word "nigh" etc.



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@DavidLamb

Editorial Correction: On the older usage of the word "prevent": While there was some contextual usages of the word "prevent' as having a hindrance idea, it also included a secondary sense of precede, as well. In other words, the modern usage of the word "prevent' like we use it today did not exist back then. While I disagree with Mark Ward's attacks on the KJV and I do not agree with all of his definitions on the older words in the KJV (like his understanding of "Study" in 2 Timothy 2:15), I believe Bill Fortenberry has misunderstood this word in part due to his pushback against Mark Ward's definition on the word "prevent."

Note: Mark Ward’s treatment of the word ‘study’ in 2 Timothy 2:15 is an exceptionally poor example of lexical research.

My PDF writeup provides the historical trail on the understanding of σπουδάζω (spoudazō):


Note: There are links to confirm my findings in the printed scanned editions online for you to verify.




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One of the MED’s examples comes from a Middle English version of the Rule of St. Benedict, dated approximately 1350–1420:

“Sain benet spekis in þis sentence of silence, how ȝe sal it halde… for þi sal ȝe seldin speke…”

In modern English:

“Saint Benedict speaks in this teaching concerning silence, how you shall observe it… therefore you shall seldom speak…”
Your citation omits something in the context. That’s what the … means. What is the complete citation?

Here’s a full citation from the same Rule of St. Benedict -

Concerning silence after Compline, Saint Benedict speaks in this passage and commands that you make every effort to keep silence after Compline. If the community eats twice a day, then, as soon as they rise from supper, they shall sit in order in the cloister.

When the bell rings for the reading, everyone shall assemble in the chapter house. Then a reading from the lives of the saints, or from Holy Scripture, shall be read, to comfort those who hear it.

At that time you shall not read the Book of Kings, because nothing unsuitable should be heard then by those who are weak in understanding. At another time it may be read.

If it is a fasting day, they shall have a good interval [between meals]. When the bell rings for collation, everyone who hears the bell shall go to collation, and afterwards to Compline. After that, no one shall be so bold as to speak.

If anyone is caught breaking silence after Compline, she shall receive severe correction from her. If guests arrive and the abbess commands."

Clearly, silence here means not speaking at all. And "breaking silence" means saying something.


In þis sentence cumandis sain benet þat te lescun sal noht faile at mete. O þis maner sal þis be stabilist, þat nan ta þe boke at [folio 24a] rede bot sho þat sal rede al þe wuke; sho sal beginne o-po þe sunday. sho sal cum by-fore þauter o þe sunday efter þe messe and say þris þis verse, and al þe cuuent eftir: "Domine, labia mea aperies," And recaiue þe benediccion, þat gete hir fra pride. Þai sal halde silence at te borde, þat na uoice be herde bot of hir þat redis. Þa þat serue sal ta yeme til þam þat etes, þat tay haue na defaute of þat tay sal haue, wharfore þai make na noise. Yef [The subject (ani, or the like) is omitted.] wil aske ani thing, sho salle make sinis and noght speke. Nane sal speke of na demande in þe lescun, whar-of noise may rise.

“In this passage Saint Benedict commands that the reading shall not be omitted at mealtime. It shall be arranged in this way: no one shall take the book to read except the woman who is to read for the whole week. She shall begin on Sunday.

After Mass on Sunday, she shall come before the altar and say this verse three times, with the whole community repeating it each time:

Domine, labia mea aperies
“Lord, open my lips.”
Then she shall receive the blessing, which protects her from pride.

They shall keep silence at the table, so that no voice is heard except that of the reader. Those who serve shall attend to the diners, so that they lack none of what they need, and therefore have no reason to make a noise.

If anyone wishes to ask for something, she shall make signs and must not speak. No one shall speak or ask any question about the reading, since this might cause noise.”
Silence
means “no voice is heard” and “must not speak” and “no one shall speak or ask a question”.

I haven't yet seen any citation from you from Middle English that of necessity conveys a sense that silence includes both noise and speech. IMO, arguing that "silence mixed with quiet speech" means that quiet speech can be silence, is a specious claim. Silence mixed with quiet speech means periods of no speech (silence) broken occasionally by quiet speech (mixed with quiet speech).
 
I also want to thank you for your post. It made me reflect more on my position and in light of what Scripture says.

After meditating on it, I believe I may have come to a slightly more nuanced understanding here.

So the way I understand "inspiration" is that it is "God-breathed," and it is not a modern invention. Taking into account the writings of Ancient Greek and two early church writers proves this.

See my short PDF writeup on that here:


The English word "given" is not in the Greek in 2 Timothy 3:16, but it is implied by the meaning of the Greek word θεόπνευστος in Beza's 1598 TR as "God-breathed." The idea behind this is that Scripture was given once under the inspiration of the breathing of God. So any copies of Scripture in Greek would carry that inspiration, and it is not that each copy would go through some kind of brand-new "inspiration" again, or a "re-inspiration." Granted, Jeremiah is an exception, of course. Many like words (new words) were added to the copy by Jeremiah. So, if we have an identical copy of the originals in Greek, it is inspired in the sense that it is carrying that inspiration, like how a horse carriage may carry humans by the horse pulling it. It's not that the copy is re-inspired or that it is a fresh, brand-new form of inspiration by God again. It is inspired, but inspired in that it carries the exact form of the original inspired words of God from the first time that God breathed out those inspired words.

I see the KJV as a providential translation without error, and it should be the Bible used in English-speaking churches. Nevertheless, the KJV does not convey every nuance of meaning that the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek convey. There are also words in the KJV that sometimes express the Greek in a way that helps explain the context, and it is not always giving us the strictest wooden-literal meaning of the word in Greek, so that we can understand it better. So we can still understand the verse the same way, but we get there from two different paths. There is what the Greek literally says on a wooden level, and then there is the English of the KJV conveying that with slightly different wording in English sometimes. There are also words that are in italics in the KJV that are added to help explain the Hebrew and the Greek, too. Those words are not inspired. So my point is that the KJV may at times reflect the meaning in certain cases in a very literal way, and thus I would say that in such cases, the meaning of these words, could be called inspired (but only the meaning and not the form of the word). So the KJV would be inspired to a certain percentage "only in meaning" in certain places and not in its form. The KJV does not always follow the Greek structure or its grammar strictly. Again, these are not errors in the KJV. Translation can allow room for differences in English because English is different from Greek.

So the real and fully inspired words of God are the copies of Scripture we have today, which are the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek that underlie the King James Bible. Therefore, I would say that the KJV is a partially inspired text only in meaning alone and only when it translates those Greek words literally. So one could say the KJV is inspired to a degree, but only in formal-equivalent translation-type places. The use or expression of English words that do not directly follow the strictest meaning of the Greek would not be inspired, in my view. However, those places in the KJV are still accurate and under God's divine providence to provide believers with an accurate Bible in English. The reason I say this is because when God gave the original Scriptures to His people, they were perfect the first time. The KJV had actually went through some refinement or word improvement after 1611 to match the underlying Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek better. This work or refinement was most likely finished in 1638 KJV, although printing errors still persisted. I believe the standardized KJV of today is without error as a 1600's english translation.




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In reality, the word "prevent" in the KJV just means "precede."
I agree with you, in the KJV, “prevent” simply means precede—to go before, to come earlier, to anticipate in the older English sense. It never carries the modern meaning of “stop” or “hinder.” So when Paul says the living will not “prevent” the dead, he means the living will not precede them in resurrection. This older usage shows how English has shifted, not how the KJV mistranslated anything. Understanding this helps keep the text clear and preserves the intended meaning without forcing modern definitions onto early‑modern English. 😊
 
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I agree with you, in the KJV, “prevent” simply means precede—to go before, to come earlier, to anticipate in the older English sense. It never carries the modern meaning of “stop” or “hinder.” So when Paul says the living will not “prevent” the dead, he means the living will not precede them in resurrection. This older usage shows how English has shifted, not how the KJV mistranslated anything. Understanding this helps keep the text clear and preserves the intended meaning without forcing modern definitions onto early‑modern English. 😊
I agree totally, brother. Bill Fortenberry would disagree with us of course. He either rejects or reinterprets the historical testimony of the Oxford dictionary on the word “prevent” and its Latin ancestor word praevenīre. The Latin word "praevenīre" means:
  • prae- = “before”
  • venīre = “to come”
There are other people out there that doubt dictionaries or interpret them in ways that are odd and unusual. It appears to be happening even this thread. Very strange. Granted, I am not saying dictionaries have not made mistakes ever, but this is not common and generally they issue corrections or updates.



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…..
 
There are other people out there that doubt dictionaries or interpret them in ways that are odd and unusual. It appears to be happening even this thread. Very strange. Granted, I am not saying dictionaries have not made mistakes ever, but this is not common and generally they issue corrections or updates
Doubting human reference works is nothing new, but Scripture consistently teaches that the problem is not with tools like dictionaries but with the human heart’s tendency to twist or ignore what is plain. Paul warns that some will be “ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” (2 Tim 3:7), not because the truth is unclear, but because they resist it. Likewise Peter says that unstable people “twist the Scriptures to their own destruction” (2 Pet 3:16). The issue is not that lexicons or dictionaries are unreliable—God has always used ordinary means (language, teachers, manuscripts) to convey His Word—but that people sometimes approach those means with pride, suspicion, or an agenda. Scripture commends careful study (Acts 17:11), sober handling of words (2 Tim 2:15), and humility before truth (Ps 25:9). So while human tools may need correction at times, the real danger Scripture identifies is interpreting in strange or self‑serving ways, not the tools themselves.
 
Doubting human reference works is nothing new, but Scripture consistently teaches that the problem is not with tools like dictionaries but with the human heart’s tendency to twist or ignore what is plain. Paul warns that some will be “ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” (2 Tim 3:7), not because the truth is unclear, but because they resist it. Likewise Peter says that unstable people “twist the Scriptures to their own destruction” (2 Pet 3:16). The issue is not that lexicons or dictionaries are unreliable—God has always used ordinary means (language, teachers, manuscripts) to convey His Word—but that people sometimes approach those means with pride, suspicion, or an agenda. Scripture commends careful study (Acts 17:11), sober handling of words (2 Tim 2:15), and humility before truth (Ps 25:9). So while human tools may need correction at times, the real danger Scripture identifies is interpreting in strange or self‑serving ways, not the tools themselves.
Well said, brother.


Side Note:

Just curious, do you believe in the Trinity?
Do you believe Christians are to live holy lives by the power of the Holy Spirit as a part of God's grace?
Anyway, I noticed you said Jesus is YHWH in another thread. You may like my free PDF writeup titled, "Is Knowledge of the Original Languages Necessary for KJV Believers?". If it sounds like your cup of tea, you can check it out at www.affectionsabove.com.



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If you decide to write anything against my ESV list of changed doctrines I have shown, please let me know so I can show where I disagree according to the classic and early writers before German Rationalism and post modernistic ideas came about....
Here is one example of the replies I had been planning to send to the twenty-seven observations on your list. In fact it’s the only one that I got as far as writing out at full length, since the information I discovered about this one turned out to be both exceptionally abundant and exceptionally interesting.

In your post #496 on this thread you wrote:
... ... ...

#27. Galatians 5:12 — “Cut off” is changed to “emasculate themselves,” turning exclusion into bodily mutilation.

The KJV says:

“I would they were even cut off which trouble you.”

The ESV says:

“I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!”

The Greek word ἀποκόψονται, from ἀποκόπτω, has the broader meaning “to cut off” or “cut away.” Older Greek-Latin lexical evidence glosses ἀποκόπτω with Latin amputo.

Importantly, Lewis & Short does not define amputo as “castrate.” It gives the broader senses “to cut around, cut away or off, lop off, prune.” The older lexical evidence therefore does not require the specific meaning of self-castration.

In context, I understand Paul to be wishing that these false teachers would be cut off from the fellowship of the believers they were troubling, not that they would physically mutilate themselves.

Greek even has the more explicit verb εὐνουχίζω, meaning “to make a eunuch,” which appears in Matthew 19:12. Paul does not use that word here.

The ESV therefore takes a particular interpretation and puts the graphic idea of self-castration directly into Paul’s mouth. This also creates an unnecessary apparent conflict with Christ’s commands to love our enemies and pray for those who mistreat and persecute us. The KJV’s “cut off” preserves the actual breadth of the Greek and naturally allows the sense of being cut off from fellowship, rather than making Paul wish bodily mutilation upon his opponents.
... ... ...

@Bible_Highlighter, in Wigram’s concordance we see that this verb ἀποκόπτω (apokopto) occurs in other NT books as well, including the gospels of Mark and John. In Mark 9:43,45 it’s seen in a much-quoted saying of Jesus, “And if thy hand/ foot offend tbee, cut it off.” In John 18:10, when Jesus is arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, Peter cuts off the servant’s ear.

I trust you find Wigram an acceptable source. He was one of the founding members of the Plymouth Brethren and his concordance first appeared in either 1840 or 1841, forty years before Westcott and Hort published their revised GNT.

In secular literature, too, the primary meaning of ἀποκόπτω is to cut off (a limb), characteristically in battle. From Liddell & Scott we learn (p. 185a, link below) that in the first and second centuries AD some writers used the term to denote castration.

One of these writers, significantly, is Philo, a Greek-speaking Jewish writer from Alexandria who was an older contemporary of both Jesus and Paul: he lived from approx. 20 BC to approx. AD 50. We need to bear in mind that koine Greek did not exist in a single, Empire-wide standard form. On the contrary, present-day academics habitually assign at least an approximate place and date of composition on the basis of known variations in spelling, in vocabulary, and even in syntax.

ἀπόκοπος

A few entries up from ἀποκόπτω on the same page in the lexicon, we find the related adjective ἀπόκοπος (apokopos), which has the primary meaning “castrated.” Is any of these words in the ἀποκόπτω family ever found in the sense of breaking off a friendship or “canceling” someone who has come to be seen as an undesirable associate? To judge from what we read here in Liddell & Scott, the answer would seem to be No. However, I have made no attempt to dig any deeper on this point. Maybe you know of something that I don’t. If so, please let me know!

It seems pretty clear to me that in this verse in Galatians Paul really does mean castration though, as you point out, we need to explain why he didn’t use εὐνουχίζω (eunouchilo) instead. His reason, I would suggest, was probably the wish to use a milder, less explicit term, so as not to offend the sensibilities of the congregations in Galatia and elsewhere where his letter was to be read aloud in the local synagogues.

Fifteen centuries later, a similar consideration seems to have been at work in the case of the KJV. Among the king’s instructions to his translators, we read:

4. When any word hath divers significations, that to be kept which hath been most commonly used by the most eminent fathers, being agreeable to the propriety of the place and the analogies of faith.

A later addition to his list demonstrates the importance the king attached to ensuring “the propriety of the place”:

15. Three or four of the most ancient and grave divines, in either of the universities, not employed in translating, to be assigned to be overseers of the translation, for the better observation of the fourth rule.

Link to Liddell & Scott, pp. 184-185:

https://archive.org/details/greekenglishlex00lidduoft/page/184/mode/2up
 
Here is one example of the replies I had been planning to send to the twenty-seven observations on your list. In fact it’s the only one that I got as far as writing out at full length, since the information I discovered about this one turned out to be both exceptionally abundant and exceptionally interesting.

In your post #496 on this thread you wrote:
... ... ...

#27. Galatians 5:12 — “Cut off” is changed to “emasculate themselves,” turning exclusion into bodily mutilation.

The KJV says:

“I would they were even cut off which trouble you.”

The ESV says:

“I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!”

The Greek word ἀποκόψονται, from ἀποκόπτω, has the broader meaning “to cut off” or “cut away.” Older Greek-Latin lexical evidence glosses ἀποκόπτω with Latin amputo.

Importantly, Lewis & Short does not define amputo as “castrate.” It gives the broader senses “to cut around, cut away or off, lop off, prune.” The older lexical evidence therefore does not require the specific meaning of self-castration.

In context, I understand Paul to be wishing that these false teachers would be cut off from the fellowship of the believers they were troubling, not that they would physically mutilate themselves.

Greek even has the more explicit verb εὐνουχίζω, meaning “to make a eunuch,” which appears in Matthew 19:12. Paul does not use that word here.

The ESV therefore takes a particular interpretation and puts the graphic idea of self-castration directly into Paul’s mouth. This also creates an unnecessary apparent conflict with Christ’s commands to love our enemies and pray for those who mistreat and persecute us. The KJV’s “cut off” preserves the actual breadth of the Greek and naturally allows the sense of being cut off from fellowship, rather than making Paul wish bodily mutilation upon his opponents.
... ... ...

@Bible_Highlighter, in Wigram’s concordance we see that this verb ἀποκόπτω (apokopto) occurs in other NT books as well, including the gospels of Mark and John. In Mark 9:43,45 it’s seen in a much-quoted saying of Jesus, “And if thy hand/ foot offend tbee, cut it off.” In John 18:10, when Jesus is arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, Peter cuts off the servant’s ear.

I trust you find Wigram an acceptable source. He was one of the founding members of the Plymouth Brethren and his concordance first appeared in either 1840 or 1841, forty years before Westcott and Hort published their revised GNT.

In secular literature, too, the primary meaning of ἀποκόπτω is to cut off (a limb), characteristically in battle. From Liddell & Scott we learn (p. 185a, link below) that in the first and second centuries AD some writers used the term to denote castration.

One of these writers, significantly, is Philo, a Greek-speaking Jewish writer from Alexandria who was an older contemporary of both Jesus and Paul: he lived from approx. 20 BC to approx. AD 50. We need to bear in mind that koine Greek did not exist in a single, Empire-wide standard form. On the contrary, present-day academics habitually assign at least an approximate place and date of composition on the basis of known variations in spelling, in vocabulary, and even in syntax.

ἀπόκοπος

A few entries up from ἀποκόπτω on the same page in the lexicon, we find the related adjective ἀπόκοπος (apokopos), which has the primary meaning “castrated.” Is any of these words in the ἀποκόπτω family ever found in the sense of breaking off a friendship or “canceling” someone who has come to be seen as an undesirable associate? To judge from what we read here in Liddell & Scott, the answer would seem to be No. However, I have made no attempt to dig any deeper on this point. Maybe you know of something that I don’t. If so, please let me know!

It seems pretty clear to me that in this verse in Galatians Paul really does mean castration though, as you point out, we need to explain why he didn’t use εὐνουχίζω (eunouchilo) instead. His reason, I would suggest, was probably the wish to use a milder, less explicit term, so as not to offend the sensibilities of the congregations in Galatia and elsewhere where his letter was to be read aloud in the local synagogues.

Fifteen centuries later, a similar consideration seems to have been at work in the case of the KJV. Among the king’s instructions to his translators, we read:

4. When any word hath divers significations, that to be kept which hath been most commonly used by the most eminent fathers, being agreeable to the propriety of the place and the analogies of faith.

A later addition to his list demonstrates the importance the king attached to ensuring “the propriety of the place”:

15. Three or four of the most ancient and grave divines, in either of the universities, not employed in translating, to be assigned to be overseers of the translation, for the better observation of the fourth rule.

Link to Liddell & Scott, pp. 184-185:

https://archive.org/details/greekenglishlex00lidduoft/page/184/mode/2up
Even when the evidence points in the direction for the Received Text, you appear to still fight against it, my friend. I believe this is in part a moral issue. The promises of God stand in keeping His word pure, certain and for all generations stands on God's goodness. Do we trust what God has said in Scripture? Jesus said "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:18 KJV). So the smallest marks that make up the Hebrew shall not pass away. We have to believe that. This means that there has to be a form of the word of God for today that is settled and that we can trust 100%. Do we trust that when Jesus told us to pray and love and do good towards our enemies, that He was also consistent to also say that one of his greatest ministers (the apostle Paul) would also speak words that would agree? Meaning, I do not believe Paul would wish castration on the Judaizers because that concept is immoral and it goes against what the New Covenant is all about, which is God's grace. The apostle Paul agreed with Jesus. Paul said if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4 KJV).

As for Jesus telling us to cut off our hand or rip out our eye: I believe this is hyperbole. Why?

Literal removal of an eye or hand would not remove the sinful disposition of the heart. In fact, immediately before this, Jesus has located adultery at the level of the heart: “whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” (Matthew 5:28 KJV). That strongly supports the rhetorical sense: remove the occasion or instrument of sin with the same determination you would have if your very hand or eye had to go.

Are we to also rip out our heart literally if it also causes us to sin?
Out of the heart proceeds evil thoughts, etc.

So our we to rip out our hearts or rip out parts of our brains so as not to sin? No. The solution is to become born again.

I believe Jesus was saying that the punishment of hell fire is so bad that you should take whatever extreme steps to try and stop it. Jesus certainly was trying to illustrate the seriousness of sins leading to death and the punishment attached to it. The reason why I have come to this conclusion is that we are to love others as we love ourselves. We are to have a heart transformation by God. So the logical implication is that I do not believe God would want us going around chopping off people's hands and ripping out their eyes to prevent lust in their lives. But we could help them to cut off things in their life that would lead them to do that, though, if they wanted such help.


.....
 
Here is one example of the replies I had been planning to send to the twenty-seven observations on your list. In fact it’s the only one that I got as far as writing out at full length, since the information I discovered about this one turned out to be both exceptionally abundant and exceptionally interesting.

In your post #496 on this thread you wrote:
... ... ...

#27. Galatians 5:12 — “Cut off” is changed to “emasculate themselves,” turning exclusion into bodily mutilation.

The KJV says:

“I would they were even cut off which trouble you.”

The ESV says:

“I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!”

The Greek word ἀποκόψονται, from ἀποκόπτω, has the broader meaning “to cut off” or “cut away.” Older Greek-Latin lexical evidence glosses ἀποκόπτω with Latin amputo.

Importantly, Lewis & Short does not define amputo as “castrate.” It gives the broader senses “to cut around, cut away or off, lop off, prune.” The older lexical evidence therefore does not require the specific meaning of self-castration.

In context, I understand Paul to be wishing that these false teachers would be cut off from the fellowship of the believers they were troubling, not that they would physically mutilate themselves.

Greek even has the more explicit verb εὐνουχίζω, meaning “to make a eunuch,” which appears in Matthew 19:12. Paul does not use that word here.

The ESV therefore takes a particular interpretation and puts the graphic idea of self-castration directly into Paul’s mouth. This also creates an unnecessary apparent conflict with Christ’s commands to love our enemies and pray for those who mistreat and persecute us. The KJV’s “cut off” preserves the actual breadth of the Greek and naturally allows the sense of being cut off from fellowship, rather than making Paul wish bodily mutilation upon his opponents.
... ... ...

@Bible_Highlighter, in Wigram’s concordance we see that this verb ἀποκόπτω (apokopto) occurs in other NT books as well, including the gospels of Mark and John. In Mark 9:43,45 it’s seen in a much-quoted saying of Jesus, “And if thy hand/ foot offend tbee, cut it off.” In John 18:10, when Jesus is arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, Peter cuts off the servant’s ear.

I trust you find Wigram an acceptable source. He was one of the founding members of the Plymouth Brethren and his concordance first appeared in either 1840 or 1841, forty years before Westcott and Hort published their revised GNT.

In secular literature, too, the primary meaning of ἀποκόπτω is to cut off (a limb), characteristically in battle. From Liddell & Scott we learn (p. 185a, link below) that in the first and second centuries AD some writers used the term to denote castration.

One of these writers, significantly, is Philo, a Greek-speaking Jewish writer from Alexandria who was an older contemporary of both Jesus and Paul: he lived from approx. 20 BC to approx. AD 50. We need to bear in mind that koine Greek did not exist in a single, Empire-wide standard form. On the contrary, present-day academics habitually assign at least an approximate place and date of composition on the basis of known variations in spelling, in vocabulary, and even in syntax.

ἀπόκοπος

A few entries up from ἀποκόπτω on the same page in the lexicon, we find the related adjective ἀπόκοπος (apokopos), which has the primary meaning “castrated.” Is any of these words in the ἀποκόπτω family ever found in the sense of breaking off a friendship or “canceling” someone who has come to be seen as an undesirable associate? To judge from what we read here in Liddell & Scott, the answer would seem to be No. However, I have made no attempt to dig any deeper on this point. Maybe you know of something that I don’t. If so, please let me know!

It seems pretty clear to me that in this verse in Galatians Paul really does mean castration though, as you point out, we need to explain why he didn’t use εὐνουχίζω (eunouchilo) instead. His reason, I would suggest, was probably the wish to use a milder, less explicit term, so as not to offend the sensibilities of the congregations in Galatia and elsewhere where his letter was to be read aloud in the local synagogues.

Fifteen centuries later, a similar consideration seems to have been at work in the case of the KJV. Among the king’s instructions to his translators, we read:

4. When any word hath divers significations, that to be kept which hath been most commonly used by the most eminent fathers, being agreeable to the propriety of the place and the analogies of faith.

A later addition to his list demonstrates the importance the king attached to ensuring “the propriety of the place”:

15. Three or four of the most ancient and grave divines, in either of the universities, not employed in translating, to be assigned to be overseers of the translation, for the better observation of the fourth rule.

Link to Liddell & Scott, pp. 184-185:

https://archive.org/details/greekenglishlex00lidduoft/page/184/mode/2up
Side Note:

Also, cutting off your hand is a life threatening issue. All the loss of blood and the cutting of the veins could kill a person. God does not want us to potentially murder ourselves to avoid hell. Nor would he want us to lead others to do that, either.



....
 
Even when the evidence points in the direction for the Received Text, you appear to still fight against it, my friend. I believe this is in part a moral issue. The promises of God stand in keeping His word pure, certain and for all generations stands on God's goodness. Do we trust what God has said in Scripture? Jesus said "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:18 KJV). So the smallest marks that make up the Hebrew shall not pass away. We have to believe that. This means that there has to be a form of the word of God for today that is settled and that we can trust 100%. Do we trust that when Jesus told us to pray and love and do good towards our enemies, that He was also consistent to also say that one of his greatest ministers (the apostle Paul) would also speak words that would agree? Meaning, I do not believe Paul would wish castration on the Judaizers because that concept is immoral and it goes against what the New Covenant is all about, which is God's grace. The apostle Paul agreed with Jesus. Paul said if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4 KJV).

As for Jesus telling us to cut off our hand or rip out our eye: I believe this is hyperbole. Why?

Literal removal of an eye or hand would not remove the sinful disposition of the heart. In fact, immediately before this, Jesus has located adultery at the level of the heart: “whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart” (Matthew 5:28 KJV). That strongly supports the rhetorical sense: remove the occasion or instrument of sin with the same determination you would have if your very hand or eye had to go.

Are we to also rip out our heart literally if it also causes us to sin?
Out of the heart proceeds evil thoughts, etc.

So our we to rip out our hearts or rip out parts of our brains so as not to sin? No. The solution is to become born again.

I believe Jesus was saying that the punishment of hell fire is so bad that you should take whatever extreme steps to try and stop it. Jesus certainly was trying to illustrate the seriousness of sins leading to death and the punishment attached to it. The reason why I have come to this conclusion is that we are to love others as we love ourselves. We are to have a heart transformation by God. So the logical implication is that I do not believe God would want us going around chopping off people's hands and ripping out their eyes to prevent lust in their lives. But we could help them to cut off things in their life that would lead them to do that, though, if they wanted such help.


.....
Editorial Fix or Correction: (I should have said the sentence like this):

"Do we trust that when Jesus (who is God) told us to pray and love and do good towards our enemies, that God was also consistent to also provide later words through one of his greatest ministers (the apostle Paul) that would agree with the words of Jesus?



....
 
Here is one example of the replies I had been planning to send to the twenty-seven observations on your list. In fact it’s the only one that I got as far as writing out at full length, since the information I discovered about this one turned out to be both exceptionally abundant and exceptionally interesting.

In your post #496 on this thread you wrote:
... ... ...

#27. Galatians 5:12 — “Cut off” is changed to “emasculate themselves,” turning exclusion into bodily mutilation.

The KJV says:

“I would they were even cut off which trouble you.”

The ESV says:

“I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!”

The Greek word ἀποκόψονται, from ἀποκόπτω, has the broader meaning “to cut off” or “cut away.” Older Greek-Latin lexical evidence glosses ἀποκόπτω with Latin amputo.

Importantly, Lewis & Short does not define amputo as “castrate.” It gives the broader senses “to cut around, cut away or off, lop off, prune.” The older lexical evidence therefore does not require the specific meaning of self-castration.

In context, I understand Paul to be wishing that these false teachers would be cut off from the fellowship of the believers they were troubling, not that they would physically mutilate themselves.

Greek even has the more explicit verb εὐνουχίζω, meaning “to make a eunuch,” which appears in Matthew 19:12. Paul does not use that word here.

The ESV therefore takes a particular interpretation and puts the graphic idea of self-castration directly into Paul’s mouth. This also creates an unnecessary apparent conflict with Christ’s commands to love our enemies and pray for those who mistreat and persecute us. The KJV’s “cut off” preserves the actual breadth of the Greek and naturally allows the sense of being cut off from fellowship, rather than making Paul wish bodily mutilation upon his opponents.
... ... ...

@Bible_Highlighter, in Wigram’s concordance we see that this verb ἀποκόπτω (apokopto) occurs in other NT books as well, including the gospels of Mark and John. In Mark 9:43,45 it’s seen in a much-quoted saying of Jesus, “And if thy hand/ foot offend tbee, cut it off.” In John 18:10, when Jesus is arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, Peter cuts off the servant’s ear.

I trust you find Wigram an acceptable source. He was one of the founding members of the Plymouth Brethren and his concordance first appeared in either 1840 or 1841, forty years before Westcott and Hort published their revised GNT.

In secular literature, too, the primary meaning of ἀποκόπτω is to cut off (a limb), characteristically in battle. From Liddell & Scott we learn (p. 185a, link below) that in the first and second centuries AD some writers used the term to denote castration.

One of these writers, significantly, is Philo, a Greek-speaking Jewish writer from Alexandria who was an older contemporary of both Jesus and Paul: he lived from approx. 20 BC to approx. AD 50. We need to bear in mind that koine Greek did not exist in a single, Empire-wide standard form. On the contrary, present-day academics habitually assign at least an approximate place and date of composition on the basis of known variations in spelling, in vocabulary, and even in syntax.

ἀπόκοπος

A few entries up from ἀποκόπτω on the same page in the lexicon, we find the related adjective ἀπόκοπος (apokopos), which has the primary meaning “castrated.” Is any of these words in the ἀποκόπτω family ever found in the sense of breaking off a friendship or “canceling” someone who has come to be seen as an undesirable associate? To judge from what we read here in Liddell & Scott, the answer would seem to be No. However, I have made no attempt to dig any deeper on this point. Maybe you know of something that I don’t. If so, please let me know!

It seems pretty clear to me that in this verse in Galatians Paul really does mean castration though, as you point out, we need to explain why he didn’t use εὐνουχίζω (eunouchilo) instead. His reason, I would suggest, was probably the wish to use a milder, less explicit term, so as not to offend the sensibilities of the congregations in Galatia and elsewhere where his letter was to be read aloud in the local synagogues.

Fifteen centuries later, a similar consideration seems to have been at work in the case of the KJV. Among the king’s instructions to his translators, we read:

4. When any word hath divers significations, that to be kept which hath been most commonly used by the most eminent fathers, being agreeable to the propriety of the place and the analogies of faith.

A later addition to his list demonstrates the importance the king attached to ensuring “the propriety of the place”:

15. Three or four of the most ancient and grave divines, in either of the universities, not employed in translating, to be assigned to be overseers of the translation, for the better observation of the fourth rule.

Link to Liddell & Scott, pp. 184-185:

https://archive.org/details/greekenglishlex00lidduoft/page/184/mode/2up
While you may or may not be suggesting this: Even if one were to take the approach that Jesus wanted us to literally rip out our eyes, and chop off our hands, that still is not the same thing as wishing that the Judaizers would castrate themselves because they taught "Circumcision Salvationism." One would be about preventing a person from going to hell, and the other would simply imply unnecessary cruelty. The false teaching of "Circumcision Salvationism" would not go away if they castrated themselves. However, if they were to be cut off in fellowship from Christians, then the teaching could no longer influence them anymore.


....
 
Here is one example of the replies I had been planning to send to the twenty-seven observations on your list. In fact it’s the only one that I got as far as writing out at full length, since the information I discovered about this one turned out to be both exceptionally abundant and exceptionally interesting.

In your post #496 on this thread you wrote:
... ... ...

#27. Galatians 5:12 — “Cut off” is changed to “emasculate themselves,” turning exclusion into bodily mutilation.

The KJV says:

“I would they were even cut off which trouble you.”

The ESV says:

“I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves!”

The Greek word ἀποκόψονται, from ἀποκόπτω, has the broader meaning “to cut off” or “cut away.” Older Greek-Latin lexical evidence glosses ἀποκόπτω with Latin amputo.

Importantly, Lewis & Short does not define amputo as “castrate.” It gives the broader senses “to cut around, cut away or off, lop off, prune.” The older lexical evidence therefore does not require the specific meaning of self-castration.

In context, I understand Paul to be wishing that these false teachers would be cut off from the fellowship of the believers they were troubling, not that they would physically mutilate themselves.

Greek even has the more explicit verb εὐνουχίζω, meaning “to make a eunuch,” which appears in Matthew 19:12. Paul does not use that word here.

The ESV therefore takes a particular interpretation and puts the graphic idea of self-castration directly into Paul’s mouth. This also creates an unnecessary apparent conflict with Christ’s commands to love our enemies and pray for those who mistreat and persecute us. The KJV’s “cut off” preserves the actual breadth of the Greek and naturally allows the sense of being cut off from fellowship, rather than making Paul wish bodily mutilation upon his opponents.
... ... ...

@Bible_Highlighter, in Wigram’s concordance we see that this verb ἀποκόπτω (apokopto) occurs in other NT books as well, including the gospels of Mark and John. In Mark 9:43,45 it’s seen in a much-quoted saying of Jesus, “And if thy hand/ foot offend tbee, cut it off.” In John 18:10, when Jesus is arrested in the Garden of Gethsemane, Peter cuts off the servant’s ear.

I trust you find Wigram an acceptable source. He was one of the founding members of the Plymouth Brethren and his concordance first appeared in either 1840 or 1841, forty years before Westcott and Hort published their revised GNT.

In secular literature, too, the primary meaning of ἀποκόπτω is to cut off (a limb), characteristically in battle. From Liddell & Scott we learn (p. 185a, link below) that in the first and second centuries AD some writers used the term to denote castration.

One of these writers, significantly, is Philo, a Greek-speaking Jewish writer from Alexandria who was an older contemporary of both Jesus and Paul: he lived from approx. 20 BC to approx. AD 50. We need to bear in mind that koine Greek did not exist in a single, Empire-wide standard form. On the contrary, present-day academics habitually assign at least an approximate place and date of composition on the basis of known variations in spelling, in vocabulary, and even in syntax.

ἀπόκοπος

A few entries up from ἀποκόπτω on the same page in the lexicon, we find the related adjective ἀπόκοπος (apokopos), which has the primary meaning “castrated.” Is any of these words in the ἀποκόπτω family ever found in the sense of breaking off a friendship or “canceling” someone who has come to be seen as an undesirable associate? To judge from what we read here in Liddell & Scott, the answer would seem to be No. However, I have made no attempt to dig any deeper on this point. Maybe you know of something that I don’t. If so, please let me know!

It seems pretty clear to me that in this verse in Galatians Paul really does mean castration though, as you point out, we need to explain why he didn’t use εὐνουχίζω (eunouchilo) instead. His reason, I would suggest, was probably the wish to use a milder, less explicit term, so as not to offend the sensibilities of the congregations in Galatia and elsewhere where his letter was to be read aloud in the local synagogues.

Fifteen centuries later, a similar consideration seems to have been at work in the case of the KJV. Among the king’s instructions to his translators, we read:

4. When any word hath divers significations, that to be kept which hath been most commonly used by the most eminent fathers, being agreeable to the propriety of the place and the analogies of faith.

A later addition to his list demonstrates the importance the king attached to ensuring “the propriety of the place”:

15. Three or four of the most ancient and grave divines, in either of the universities, not employed in translating, to be assigned to be overseers of the translation, for the better observation of the fourth rule.

Link to Liddell & Scott, pp. 184-185:

https://archive.org/details/greekenglishlex00lidduoft/page/184/mode/2up
Most misunderstand Paul when he refers to being saved by God's grace through faith without works. If one were to read it in light of the heresy brought up in Acts 15 in the KJV, you would see that Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism."

Paul Was Fighting Against Circumcision Salvationism:

Paul repeatedly fought against the false belief of certain Jews who influenced Christians that the must be first circumcised in order to be initially saved.​

Galatians 2:3 says:

“But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”​

Galatians 5:2 says:

“Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”​

Galatians 5:6 says:

“For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”​

Galatians 6:15 says:

“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”​

1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says:

“Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.”​

Romans 2:28-29 says:

“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:​
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”​

Romans 3:1 says:

“What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”​

Romans 4:9-12 says:

“Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.​
How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.​
And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:​
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”​

Key Verses That Goes Into Describing The Heresy of Circumcision Salvationism:

Acts 15:1 says:

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”​

Acts 15:5 says:

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”​

Acts 15:24 says:

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”​

Bonus Verse:

Ephesians 2:11-13 says:

“Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;​
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:​
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”​

In other words, Paul was fighting against a false belief that dealt with Initial Salvation. So when Paul says we are saved by God's grace through faith, this is in relation to how we first get saved by God. It speaks of nothing that happens in the next step of our faith in Sanctification.


....
 
So, when we are first saved by God, we do not have to be water baptized to be saved, or circumcised, etcetera. We are saved initially by believing the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 in that we believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day for our salvation. This initial salvation can sometimes also include calling upon the name of the Lord Jesus for salvation, as well.


Side Note:

Acts 15 is changed in one of the verses in Modern Bibles when it comes to this topic on "Circumcision Salvationism," too.
Again, yet another corruption that will help you not understand what is going on the Bible. But of course those who slice and dice God's word will not be able to see it, of course. They are too busy chopping up God's word in their own minds.



....


....
 
As for Jesus telling us to cut off our hand or rip out our eye: I believe this is hyperbole.
...
Yes, definitely, and so also in the case of Paul, who has gone a step further by adding a mildly sarcastic edge. What clinches the argument for me is the close connection with circumcision in the preceding verse. One surgical operation leads on to the next.

Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! (Gal 5:11-12, NIV)

But as for me, my friends, if I continue to preach that circumcision is necessary, why am I still being persecuted? If that were true, then my preaching about the cross of Christ would cause no trouble. I wish that the people who are upsetting you would go all the way; let them go on and castrate themselves! (GNB)

These two translators quietly smuggled in a few extra words to bring the connection, only implicit in Paul’s Greek, out into the open. That’s not a practice to be recommended in any translator — the closer he manages to stick to the original text in front of him, the better— but these two translators have at least done their readers a favor by showing them how to join up the dots.
 
Yes, definitely, and so also in the case of Paul, who has gone a step further by adding a mildly sarcastic edge. What clinches the argument for me is the close connection with circumcision in the preceding verse. One surgical operation leads on to the next.

Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished.As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! (Gal 5:11-12, NIV)

But as for me, my friends, if I continue to preach that circumcision is necessary, why am I still being persecuted? If that were true, then my preaching about the cross of Christ would cause no trouble. I wish that the people who are upsetting you would go all the way; let them go on and castrate themselves! (GNB)

These two translators quietly smuggled in a few extra words to bring the connection, only implicit in Paul’s Greek, out into the open. That’s not a practice to be recommended in any translator — the closer he manages to stick to the original text in front of him, the better— but these two translators have at least done their readers a favor by showing them how to join up the dots.
GALATIANS 5:12 DOES NOT GRAMMATICALLY REQUIRE THE CASTRATION INTERPRETATION:

Galatians 5:12 in Beza's 1598 Greek reads:

Ὄφελον καὶ ἀποκόψονται οἱ ἀναστατοῦντες ὑμᾶς.​

KJV:

“I would they were even cut off which trouble you.”​

The key word is ἀποκόψονται, from ἀποκόπτω (G609), “to cut off” or “sever.” In Galatians 5:12, ἀποκόψονται is future middle indicative, third-person plural. A very wooden rendering which attempts to bring out the middle voice would be:

“Would that even they cut themselves off, those troubling you.”​

“Themselves” is not a separate Greek word in the sentence. It is a way of bringing out the possible self-involving force of the middle voice in English. More importantly, Paul gives no object telling us what, if anything, is physically being cut off.

This becomes significant when we examine every other New Testament occurrence of ἀποκόπτω. In every other occurrence, the thing being cut off is identified. Mark 9:43 identifies the hand: ἀπόκοψον αὐτήν, “cut it off.” Mark 9:45 identifies the foot. John 18:10 and John 18:26 identify the ear. Acts 27:32 identifies τὰ σχοινία, “the ropes.” Galatians 5:12 alone gives no object at all. It is also the only New Testament occurrence of ἀποκόπτω in the middle voice. Therefore, if someone says Paul specifically means that these men should castrate themselves, that particular physical meaning has been supplied from an interpretation of the circumcision context. Paul himself does not state any bodily member in the Greek.

Blue Letter Bible, G609:


Matthew 19:12 also shows that Greek could be much more explicit when making someone a eunuch was actually being described:

εὐνούχισαν ἑαυτούς​
“they made themselves eunuchs.”​

Galatians 5:12 does not use that vocabulary.

More importantly, ancient Greek evidence demonstrates that ἀποκόπτω does not demand a physical meaning.

Epictetus, writing around the New Testament period, uses middle forms of this exact same verb metaphorically. In Discourses 2.20 he uses ἀποκόψασθαι, an aorist middle infinitive of ἀποκόπτω, for “cutting off” desires. Shortly afterward he uses another middle form, ἀπεκόψατο, metaphorically concerning things associated with being a man, householder, citizen, and friend.

Perseus:

Eusebius provides an even more relevant Christian example. While discussing Victor's attempt to exclude churches from ecclesiastical unity, he writes:

ὡς μὴ ἀποκόπτοι ὅλας ἐκκλησίας θεοῦ​
“that he should not cut off whole churches of God.”​

This is the same verb, ἀποκόπτω, clearly being used for separation from religious unity rather than physical cutting.

Greek text:

The Ascetic Constitutions gives an even closer example because it uses a middle/passive form of the same verb in the context of spiritual fellowship:

Ὅτι οὐ δεῖ τῆς πνευματικῆς ἀδελφότητος ἀποκόπτεσθαι.​
“That one ought not to be cut off from the spiritual brotherhood.”​

It also says:

ἀποκόπτεσθαι καὶ χωρίζεσθαι τούτων​
“to be cut off and to be separated from them.”​

And later:

ἀποκόπτειν ἑαυτὸν τούτων​
“to cut himself off from them.”​

Greek text:

None of these ancient examples prove that “cut themselves off from fellowship” must be Paul's intended meaning in Galatians 5:12. That is not the point. What they demonstrate is that ἀποκόπτω, including middle forms of the verb, could be used metaphorically and could even be used for separation from religious fellowship.

Therefore, the castration interpretation may be argued from the surrounding discussion of circumcision, but it is not demanded by the Greek grammar of Galatians 5:12. “Castrate themselves” is an interpretation of ἀποκόψονται, not its unavoidable literal meaning.



.....
 
GALATIANS 5:12 DOES NOT GRAMMATICALLY REQUIRE THE CASTRATION INTERPRETATION:

Galatians 5:12 in Beza's 1598 Greek reads:

Ὄφελον καὶ ἀποκόψονται οἱ ἀναστατοῦντες ὑμᾶς.​

KJV:

“I would they were even cut off which trouble you.”​

The key word is ἀποκόψονται, from ἀποκόπτω (G609), “to cut off” or “sever.” In Galatians 5:12, ἀποκόψονται is future middle indicative, third-person plural. A very wooden rendering which attempts to bring out the middle voice would be:

“Would that even they cut themselves off, those troubling you.”​

“Themselves” is not a separate Greek word in the sentence. It is a way of bringing out the possible self-involving force of the middle voice in English. More importantly, Paul gives no object telling us what, if anything, is physically being cut off.

This becomes significant when we examine every other New Testament occurrence of ἀποκόπτω. In every other occurrence, the thing being cut off is identified. Mark 9:43 identifies the hand: ἀπόκοψον αὐτήν, “cut it off.” Mark 9:45 identifies the foot. John 18:10 and John 18:26 identify the ear. Acts 27:32 identifies τὰ σχοινία, “the ropes.” Galatians 5:12 alone gives no object at all. It is also the only New Testament occurrence of ἀποκόπτω in the middle voice. Therefore, if someone says Paul specifically means that these men should castrate themselves, that particular physical meaning has been supplied from an interpretation of the circumcision context. Paul himself does not state any bodily member in the Greek.

Blue Letter Bible, G609:


Matthew 19:12 also shows that Greek could be much more explicit when making someone a eunuch was actually being described:

εὐνούχισαν ἑαυτούς​
“they made themselves eunuchs.”​

Galatians 5:12 does not use that vocabulary.

More importantly, ancient Greek evidence demonstrates that ἀποκόπτω does not demand a physical meaning.

Epictetus, writing around the New Testament period, uses middle forms of this exact same verb metaphorically. In Discourses 2.20 he uses ἀποκόψασθαι, an aorist middle infinitive of ἀποκόπτω, for “cutting off” desires. Shortly afterward he uses another middle form, ἀπεκόψατο, metaphorically concerning things associated with being a man, householder, citizen, and friend.

Perseus:

Eusebius provides an even more relevant Christian example. While discussing Victor's attempt to exclude churches from ecclesiastical unity, he writes:

ὡς μὴ ἀποκόπτοι ὅλας ἐκκλησίας θεοῦ​
“that he should not cut off whole churches of God.”​

This is the same verb, ἀποκόπτω, clearly being used for separation from religious unity rather than physical cutting.

Greek text:

The Ascetic Constitutions gives an even closer example because it uses a middle/passive form of the same verb in the context of spiritual fellowship:

Ὅτι οὐ δεῖ τῆς πνευματικῆς ἀδελφότητος ἀποκόπτεσθαι.​
“That one ought not to be cut off from the spiritual brotherhood.”​

It also says:

ἀποκόπτεσθαι καὶ χωρίζεσθαι τούτων​
“to be cut off and to be separated from them.”​

And later:

ἀποκόπτειν ἑαυτὸν τούτων​
“to cut himself off from them.”​

Greek text:

None of these ancient examples prove that “cut themselves off from fellowship” must be Paul's intended meaning in Galatians 5:12. That is not the point. What they demonstrate is that ἀποκόπτω, including middle forms of the verb, could be used metaphorically and could even be used for separation from religious fellowship.

Therefore, the castration interpretation may be argued from the surrounding discussion of circumcision, but it is not demanded by the Greek grammar of Galatians 5:12. “Castrate themselves” is an interpretation of ἀποκόψονται, not its unavoidable literal meaning.



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Yes, agreed. We have no certain knowledge either way. I find the case for "castrated" more convincing, that's all.