Is Knowledge of the Original Languages Necessary for KJV Believers?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You missed the beginning words.

This book is edited from the lectures and unpublished notes of R. B. Thieme, Jr.

The original messages almost always referenced the KJV.
I have yet to hear him give a lesson beginning with the NASB

Why they chose that route I can not tell you.

He almost always cited the KJV in the unedited original classes.


A devout student of his, my former pastor Rick Knapp, started with the KJV when he taught at Soldiers and Sailors Memorial.
I noticed gradually over the years as he studied greek, he gravitated towards using the new versions. Eventually he would undermine the King James traditional text for his own translations. Is that what Theime did too?
 
It is not a yes or no question. Paul gave a condition. He said. "ye are saved, if ye keep in memory (that) what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." And the word memory is not in the Greek. It should read differently. It should say "that".

As I look at this, I see I need to look at it more intently. The word "that" does seem good either. I will have to get back to you.

Regardless, there is a condition. So yes, as long as the condition is meant.

How long have you been speaking Greek?
 
A devout student of his, my former pastor Rick Knapp, started with the KJV when he taught at Soldiers and Sailors Memorial.
I noticed gradually over the years as he studied greek, he gravitated towards using the new versions. Eventually he would undermine the King James traditional text for his own translations. Is that what Theime did too?

Thieme had no need.
He was an expert exegetical teacher in his own right. Rare to find.

The King James does have some serious problems in itself.
Do what you wish.

After all... Some could not see Paul as a man of God as well.

If you can't see it for yourself?

So be it.
 
Thieme had no need.
He was an expert exegetical teacher in his own right. Rare to find.

The King James does have some serious problems in itself.
Do what you wish.

After all... Some could not see Paul as a man of God as well.

If you can't see it for yourself?

So be it.

Knapp decided to go with the critical text.
No matter how good an exegetical teacher one is, if you start out with corrupt manuscripts you can't expect to correct the obvious pure word of God.

 
  • Like
Reactions: John146
Knapp decided to go with the critical text.
No matter how good an exegetical teacher one is, if you start out with corrupt manuscripts you can't expect to correct the obvious pure word of God.


Does anybody actually teach the Word of God these days?
Or do they only argue over how the Word of God is to be taught?

If you would like?

I have set up an alternative email address.
I can send you a complete message by RBT that you can evaluate for yourself.
 
Knapp decided to go with the critical text.
No matter how good an exegetical teacher one is, if you start out with corrupt manuscripts you can't expect to correct the obvious pure word of God.


Who has corrupt manuscripts???
Brilliant trick of the devil to get the dog to chase its tail without end.

It is bitterness until the Holy Spirit guides you into what is needed.
Until then... It will be lies.. lies... lies...

People here only argue, argue, argue, and gain NOTHING!

I for one, cannot follow King James English. Might as well be Greek.
 
Does anybody actually teach the Word of God these days?
Or do they only argue over how the Word of God is to be taught?

If you would like?

I have set up an alternative email address.
I can send you a complete message by RBT that you can evaluate for yourself.
What word of God? You don't really have a Bible.
You attack the KJV and so that means you are some kind of multi-versionist.
What Greek text do you follow?
The Received Text or the Critical Text or the Majority Text or mix of all of them?
It's like you do not even know the issues involved on this topic.

Also, why would he want to learn from you?
Your not KJV-only and neither do you believe the KJV is without error.
Health and Happiness believes the KJV is without error.
I also believe it is without error.





.....
 
Who has corrupt manuscripts???
Brilliant trick of the devil to get the dog to chase its tail without end.

It is bitterness until the Holy Spirit guides you into what is needed.
Until then... It will be lies.. lies... lies...

People here only argue, argue, argue, and gain NOTHING!

I for one, cannot follow King James English. Might as well be Greek.
So you think Modern Bibles that teach Jesus sinned are not corrupt by saying that?
Does the Bible teach that Jesus did not have a beginning?
Well, you can get yourself the Critical Greek text or the NASB 95 and believe in Arianism if you like.
That is a corrupt teaching and it comes from the corrupt Bibles.
There are many corruptions in the Critical Text and Modern Bibles.
The fact that you are unaware of them shows you don't really know as much as you think you do on the Bible topic.
Try taking about 3-5 years on comparing the doctrinal differences on a Greek level in the New Testament and get back to us.



....
 
It is not a yes or no question. Paul gave a condition. He said. "ye are saved, if ye keep in memory (that) what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." And the word memory is not in the Greek. It should read differently. It should read "that".
QT, the Greek word itself already conveys the idea of keeping something in memory! The KJV translators were not adding some foreign meaning to the text when they translated κατέχετε (katechete) as "keep in memory" (1 Corinthians 15:2). This is an established meaning of the Greek verb κατέχω (katechō).

For example, LSJ expressly defines κατέχω as "keep in mind, remember," and cites several ancient Greek writers who used this verb in that very sense! You can examine this for yourself in the LSJ Greek Lexicon here:

https://lsj.gr/wiki/κατέχω

Consider Theophrastus (c. 371–287 BC), who wrote in Characters 26.2:

"καὶ τῶν Ὁμήρου ἐπῶν τοῦτο ἓν μόνον κατέχειν"

English: "And to remember only this one of Homer's verses."

Notice that Theophrastus uses κατέχειν (katechein) to describe someone remembering a particular verse from Homer! No separate Greek noun for "memory" is necessary because the verb itself conveys the idea of remembering. You can examine the ancient Greek source here:

https://www.greek-language.gr/digitalResources/ancient_greek/library/browse.html?page=27&text_id=29

Furthermore, Epicurus (341–270 BC), in his Letter to Herodotus, section 35, writes:

"εἰς τὸ κατασχεῖν τῶν ὁλοσχερωτάτων γε δοξῶν τὴν μνήμην"

This concerns retaining the principal teachings in one's memory. Notice that Epicurus uses κατασχεῖν (kataschein), an aorist infinitive of κατέχω, in direct connection with μνήμην (mnēmēn), meaning "memory." In section 62 of the same letter, Epicurus also writes, "χρήσιμον δὴ καὶ τοῦτο κατασχεῖν τὸ στοιχεῖον," meaning, "It is useful also to retain this fundamental principle." LSJ specifically cites this latter passage under the meaning "keep in mind, remember." You can examine the Greek and English here:

https://ericlyonshansen.github.io/Epicurus/Letter_to_Herodotus_Bailey.html

Even Plato (c. 428–348 BC), in Philebus 26c, writes, "οὐ κατέχω τί βούλει φράζειν," meaning, "I do not understand what you mean to say." LSJ cites this example under the meaning "master, understand." Therefore, these ancient Greek examples establish that κατέχω could involve remembering, retaining knowledge, or understanding something!

But that is not all! Stephanus's Thesaurus Graecae Linguae (Didot edition, pp. 1339–1340) provides the following Latin definitions for this very Greek verb:

Κατέχω (katechō)

Latin:
Detineo, Retineo.

English:

  • Detineo: To hold, detain, keep back.
  • Retineo: To retain, hold fast, keep possession of, keep in mind, remember.
You can examine Stephanus's lexicon here:

https://archive.org/details/tgl-prospectus-13/TGL_vol_4b/page/n103/mode/2up

Now, here is where things get even more interesting! Lewis and Short's A Latin Dictionary (1879) expressly recognizes "to keep in mind, remember" as a meaning of the Latin verb retineo, which Stephanus gives as one of the definitions for the Greek word κατέχω. You can examine this Latin dictionary entry here:

https://alatius.com/ls/index.php?met=up&ord=retineo

But this understanding of the Latin word existed long before modern dictionaries! For example, Cicero (106–43 BC), in De Imperio Cn. Pompei 7.19, writes, "id quidem certe calamitate docti memoria retinere debemus," meaning, "That, certainly, having learned through calamity, we ought to retain in memory." Here Cicero expressly connects retinere with memoria, demonstrating the established Latin usage of retaining something in memory. You can examine his original Latin here:

https://nodictionaries.com/cicero/de-imperio-cn-pompei/19

Furthermore, Aulus Gellius (second century AD), in Noctes Atticae 17.9.16, writes, "sive ille Hasdrubal est, sive quis alius, non retineo," meaning, "Whether that was Hasdrubal or someone else, I do not remember."

Did you catch that? Gellius uses non retineo to express "I do not remember," without employing a separate Latin noun for memory! Lewis and Short cite this very example in their dictionary entry for retineo:

https://alatius.com/ls/index.php?met=up&ord=retineo

But that is not all! Even Modern Greek dictionaries recognize that κατέχω can convey the idea of knowing or understanding something!

For example, the Triantafyllidis Dictionary of Standard Modern Greek (1998) defines κατέχω as "γνωρίζω κτ. πολύ καλά, έχω βαθιά, πλήρη γνώση," meaning, "To know something very well, to have deep, complete knowledge." It also recognizes "ξέρω ή καταλαβαίνω," meaning, "To know or understand." You can examine this Modern Greek dictionary here:

https://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/modern_greek/tools/lexica/triantafyllides/search.html?lq=κατέχω

Furthermore, the Academy of Athens' Dictionary of Modern Greek defines κατέχω as "γνωρίζω τέλεια ή/και σε βάθος, είμαι ειδήμων," meaning, "To know perfectly or in depth, to be an expert." It even gives the example "κατέχει την αλήθεια," meaning, "He knows the truth." You can examine this dictionary here:

https://christikolexiko.academyofathens.gr/index.php/anazitisi?st=κατέχω

Likewise, the historical Kriaras Dictionary of Medieval Greek recognizes "ξέρω, καταλαβαίνω, μαθαίνω," meaning, "To know, understand, learn." It also gives "έχω υπόψη μου," meaning, "To have in mind." You can examine this Greek dictionary here:

https://www.greek-language.gr/greekLang/modern_greek/tools/lexica/search.html?lq=κατέχω

Now, think about that for a moment! How does someone retain knowledge so that he can know or understand it? By keeping that knowledge in his mind or memory! The meanings are closely related, even though they are not identical in every context.

My Conclusion

We have ancient Greek writers using κατέχω to express remembering something, LSJ expressly recognizing "keep in mind, remember," Stephanus supplying the Latin retineo, and ancient Latin writers using retineo in connection with memory! Even Modern Greek dictionaries recognize related meanings involving knowledge and understanding.

Therefore, "keep in memory" is an actual, historically documented meaning of the Greek verb κατέχω. The KJV translators did not invent this meaning! Your observation that the Greek text does not contain a separate noun for "memory" does absolutely nothing to establish that the KJV translation is incorrect.

As for Paul's condition in verse 2, I never denied that believers must continue in the gospel. In fact, I do not believe in Once Saved Always Saved. However, my original question concerned initial salvation, not whether a believer must subsequently continue in the faith.

So let me ask you again: Do you believe that a person who genuinely believes the gospel described in (1 Corinthians 15:3–4) is initially saved at that point?

Yes or no?



....
 
What word of God? You don't really have a Bible.
You attack the KJV and so that means you are some kind of multi-versionist.
What Greek text do you follow?
The Received Text or the Critical Text or the Majority Text or mix of all of them?
It's like you do not even know the issues involved on this topic.

Also, why would he want to learn from you?
Your not KJV-only and neither do you believe the KJV is without error.
Health and Happiness believes the KJV is without error.
I also believe it is without error.
.

You are only book smart.

Not.... Christ smart.

Wasted time.
 
Who has corrupt manuscripts???
Brilliant trick of the devil to get the dog to chase its tail without end.

It is bitterness until the Holy Spirit guides you into what is needed.
Until then... It will be lies.. lies... lies...

People here only argue, argue, argue, and gain NOTHING!

I for one, cannot follow King James English. Might as well be Greek.

The men too many follow have used corrupt manuscripts that exclude over 6,000 words and references. The last half of Mark 16 supossedly wasn't in "the original autographs according to pastors I wasted time under.
They never saw an original, but speak with such boldness that proved to be a con.

Even if English is not your first language, you understand the Modern English of the Elizabethen era better than critics like James White, Robert Theime or my former pastor knew Greek and Hebrew.

Think about that a minute....really think about the fact that those men could not even carry on conversations like a native speaker. Yet they pretend to be experts because they could utilize language tools and sound authoritative.
I knew members of my former church who idolized the pastor. Idolatry infected my church because they held the pastors opinions above the word of God. It destroyed two families that I personally knew. The guy would speak with more gusto than John Wayne as he read his "expanded and corrected translation.",
He used his interpretation of corrupt, incomplete manuscripts to bash my correct Bible.

The translators of the King James and predecessors of it were able to have daily discussions in multiple languages. Sir Lancelot Andrewes was one example who was FLUENT in 21 languages. 6 Of them were ancient, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Syriac, Arabic, and Chaldee (Aramaic).

Can that be said of those men who exalt the liberal Sadducees of the 1800s, the German higher critics of the Bible ?
Years ago I asked, who are those German higher critics, the scholars that my pastor used to quote as if they spoke for God?
 
Even if English is not your first language, you understand the Modern English of the Elizabethen era better than critics like James White, Robert Theime or my former pastor knew Greek and Hebrew. You might not be able to

Think about that a minute....really think about the fact that those men could not even carry on conversations like a native speaker. Yet they pretend to be experts because they could utilize language tools and sound authoritative.
I knew members of my former church who idolized the pastor. Idolatry infected my church because they held the pastors opinions above the word of God. It destroyed two families that I personally knew. The guy would speak with more gusto than John Wayne as he read his "expanded and corrected translation.",
He used his interpretation of corrupt, incomplete manuscripts to bash my correct Bible.

The translators of the King James and predecessors of it were able to have daily discussions in multiple languages. Sir Lancelot Andrewes was one example who was FLUENT in 21 languages. 6 Of them were ancient, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Syriac, Arabic, and Chaldee (Aramaic).

Can that be said of those men who exalt the liberal Sadducees of the 1800s, the German higher critics of the Bible ?
Years ago I asked, who are those German higher critics, the scholars that my pastor used to quote as if they spoke for God?

Your argument could only hold water if you yourself were a Hebrew and Greek scholar.
So why present it when you are in the same situation as the one you make demands on?
 
The men too many follow have used corrupt manuscripts that exclude over 6,000 words and references.
That is why it says....

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road ​
that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate ​
and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.​
​
Matthew 7:13-14​



And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; ​
those he justified, he also glorified.​
​
Romans 8:30​

Many are saved. Only a few will make it to maturity.

Why?

The broad and wide leads to the destruction of the spiritual life God wants all Christians to walk in.
Only a few find it that leads to life. "Life more abundantly."

​
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number ​
of teachers (broad and wide) to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3​

Congratulations. You have found what suites your own desire.
 
You are only book smart.

Not.... Christ smart.

Wasted time.
Well, you are not God to know my status with the Lord. You are also not a mind reader, either.
Jesus quoted Scripture many times, and so I would say that you truly do not understand Jesus Christ by what you stated here.
I pointed out before how Jesus referred to how the Scriptures testify of Him.
You really did not offer any thoughts on that.

Our faith is built upon the Bible.
If you don't have the Bible to guide your faith in Christ, then you are not following the same Jesus as shown in His word.
So, which Jesus are you following? The One in your head from man's teachings on what they think the Bible says or the One from Scripture alone as it was meant to be accepted?

You are also not answering my questions.
Are you for the Textus Receptus (Generally this is Scrivener TR but others, like myself prefer to compare the Beza 1598 and note the translatable differences).
Are you for the Critical Text Greek (Nestle and Aland 29th edition)?
Are you for the Majority Text Greek? (There are different forms of the Byzantine Majority Text out there).



.....
 
Your argument could only hold water if you yourself were a Hebrew and Greek scholar.
So why present it when you are in the same situation as the one you make demands on?
My Bible, the traditional text, was translated by history's best translators.
The guys who frequently criticised it to my face were pretending to be Olympic track and field medalists.
 
That is why it says....

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road ​
that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate ​
and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.​
​
Matthew 7:13-14​



And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; ​
those he justified, he also glorified.​
​
Romans 8:30​

Many are saved. Only a few will make it to maturity.

Why?

The broad and wide leads to the destruction of the spiritual life God wants all Christians to walk in.
Only a few find it that leads to life. "Life more abundantly."

​
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. ​
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number ​
of teachers (broad and wide) to say what their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3​

Congratulations. You have found what suites your own desire.
I would say that the narrow way is the Received Text and the King James Bible.
Why? Because not only does it have superior doctrine when you compare it to the Modern Bibles, which is based on the Critical Text Greek (Nestle and Aland / Westcott and Hort tradition), but heretics and liberals helped to shape the Greek text in the Modern Bible Movement.

You don't even have to take my word for it. There is thing called the internet and AI. Within a matter a minute or two, you can get all kinds of sources and links and read for hours on end just how corrupt the Modern Bible Movement is. It is the opposite of the narrow way. How on Earth you can just continue to keep living in a bubble world by not knocking and seeking is beyond me.

Please just do your homework and research and you will see that what I say here is true.
You have been duped and lied to about the TR/KJV.
Why? Because the Modern Bible Movement is a billion dollar industry.
That is motive to protect their movement.


......
 
  • Like
Reactions: HealthAndHappiness
I would say that the narrow way is the Received Text and the King James Bible.
Why? Because not only does it have superior doctrine when you compare it to the Modern Bibles, which is based on the Critical Text Greek (Nestle and Aland / Westcott and Hort tradition), but heretics and liberals helped to shape the Greek text in the Modern Bible Movement.

You don't even have to take my word for it. There is thing called the internet and AI. Within a matter a minute or two, you can get all kinds of sources and links and read for hours on end just how corrupt the Modern Bible Movement is. It is the opposite of the narrow way. How on Earth you can just continue to keep living in a bubble world by not knocking and seeking is beyond me.

Please just do your homework and research and you will see that what I say here is true.
You have been duped and lied to about the TR/KJV.
Why? Because the Modern Bible Movement is a billion dollar industry.
That is motive to protect their movement.


......
I appreciate your passion for the KJV, and I agree that Christians should examine the evidence for themselves rather than blindly trusting scholars, pastors, or popular opinions.
Where I'd hesitate is equating the "narrow way" with a particular Greek text or English translation.
When Jesus spoke of the narrow way, He was talking about following Him.
The people entering through the narrow gate weren't identified by which manuscript tradition they used, but by their relationship to Christ and their obedience to Him.
 
@Genez

What is the settled and stable Greek text you follow?
Do you believe it is without error?
Is it a recognized standard among a body of believers today?


....
 
What word of God? You don't really have a Bible.
You attack the KJV and so that means you are some kind of multi-versionist.
What Greek text do you follow?

Keep pushing the propaganda if you like.

Anyway...
God brings me testing from time to time.
For, that. I thank you.
 
I appreciate your passion for the KJV, and I agree that Christians should examine the evidence for themselves rather than blindly trusting scholars, pastors, or popular opinions.
Where I'd hesitate is equating the "narrow way" with a particular Greek text or English translation.
When Jesus spoke of the narrow way, He was talking about following Him.
The people entering through the narrow gate weren't identified by which manuscript tradition they used, but by their relationship to Christ and their obedience to Him.
Modern Bibles and even the Critical Text are not documents of information that we cannot decipher and understand and learn about Jesus. What you fail to understand is that the Critical Text, and its Modern English translations both paint a different picture of Jesus to follow then the Jesus shown in the Received Text and the KJV. My 77 Changed Doctrines went into this with lots of verses, but it is still a writeup in revision so I can align the work with my study involving the original languages with the older lexicons, the LSJ (which covers the Ancient Greek, Middle English dictionary (that sometimes shows the bridge between the original languages and the KJV), Modern Greek dictionaries (Which can at times say the same thing as Koine Greek), and early church writers, and reformation commentators). I will also throw in archaeology where applicable, as well. Sources, and links and reading the context, and prayer all help to guide us and see the truth of God's words for today are 100% trustworthy in the TR/KJV. We can see the corruptions on a doctrinal level in many places in the Critical Text Greek, and the Modern English Bibles. It's like child's play or kindergarten stuff. Everyone should know the truths that I speak of here but they simply don't because they either get a rush (like a drug addict) in chopping up God's words in their own mind, or they don't want to lose friends, or lose their career, connections, etcetera.

One Bible line teaches that Jesus sinned.
The other does not.
One Bible line teaches an Arian version of Jesus.
The other does not.
One Bible line says you can marry your rapist.
The other does not.
The list is huge and if folks really care about doctrine or truth, they naturally would be TR/KJV.



....