Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?

[TheLearner]

I conferred with a native German speaker (a Christian). He clearly told me, that Luther stated that Michael is Christ. Google translate, does not do a good job with old German (and some Dutch) mix.

This is from a high rated translator online that is not google.

"
HOW Michael is an angel's name, but we understand here, same as Apoc. XII. the Lord Christ himself there through, those here on earth with his angels, that is preachers, fight against the devil, through the gospel, for he names in the great princes. THE same has now opened up and stands for the Christians and comforts them with the word of grace. BECAUSE since then the most growing time has come, when there was never on earth HOW Christ also foresees this word,
"
https://www.deepl.com/en/translator...west ist, WIE Christus diese wort auch füret,

 

[TheLearner]

Its a good question. I do read a few that add the word "worthy".. what ever. I've read this over the years and never coming to the conclusion that Michael is Jesus or another name for Jesus. I know a different group out there believe this yet.. you really had to reach far and wide.. Just I don't believe so

Exactly what is the difference? And, why even bother calling Jesus by a name he is not? God bless.

 

[Webers.Home]

.

John 8:58 "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

Jesus is a "begotten" son. (John 1:14, John 1:18, John 3:16, John 3:18, Heb
11:17, 1John 4:9) which is quite different than a son who never had a
beginning via birth.

However; there is a way to exist prior to one's birth.

For example: Hebrews 7:9-10 says Levi paid a tenth with Abraham before
he was born because he existed in Abraham's loins all along.

Carry that thought to Micah 5:2 where it says:

"But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of
Judah, from you one will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth
are from long ago, from the days of eternity."

The Hebrew word translated "goings forth" pertain to posterity, i.e. family
descent. In other words: though Jesus was not yet born of God in Abraham's
day; he could legitimately say he pre-existed Abraham because he was in
God's loins, so to speak. In point of fact, 1John 3:9 speaks of God's
genetics. So the thing I'm talking about isn't some sort of fantasy brought
on by the chemo therapy I'm currently undergoing for esophageal cancer.

FAQ: Why are so many Christians confused about Christ's origin?

REPLY: No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the
Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
(Matt 11:27)
_

 

[TheLearner]

Even the

One of the archangels one of the chief princes"; Dan. x. 13), who is also represented as the tutelary prince of Israel (ib. x. 21, xii. 1). The signification of the name (= "Who islike El"?) was recognized by the Talmudists, who found an allusion to it in Ex. xv. 11 () and in Deut. xxxiii. 26 (), combining the first word of the former passage with the second of the latter (Num. R. ii. 9). According to Simeon b. Laḳish, however, the names of the angels were brought by the Jews from Babylon (Yer. R. H. 54d; Gen. R. xlviii. 9). Upon the basis of the above-cited passages from the Book of Daniel (where Michael is represented first as helping Daniel in his dispute with the angel of Persia and then as helping Israel in time of trouble—that is, in the Messianic time—and where he is styled "your prince") Michael is specially designated in early Jewish writings and very frequently in the Book of Enoch as "the prince of Israel" (), and in later Jewish writings, particularly in cabalistic works, as "the advocate of the Jews." It is for this reason that he is represented as the angel of forbearance and mercy (Enoch, xl. 3) who taught Enoch the mysteries of clemency and justice (ib. lxxi. 2).
https://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10779-michael

 

[TheLearner]

I provided the link to all the originally sourced materials. The "wiki" is simply a quick snapshot of those sources which were "secondary", as I was not allowed to post primary sources on wiki (I attempted several times, and in each instance the material was erased by wiki's self-proclaimed watch dogs.)

I will post the link again, see Chapter 11.

https://archive.org/details/michael-the-archangel-12-the-plan-of-redemption-who-is-like-unto-god-daniel-11.40-45-12.1-3_202301/Amazing Facts - Pocket Book - Doug Batchelor - Who Is Michael The Archangel/

wiki is garbage brother, friend.

 

[TheLearner]

Hey! Mr SDA or JW, Hebrews 1 is still there whether you choose to ignore it or not!

Please refrain from spreading heresies.

Thank you!

I think our brother is SDA Bro.

 

[TheLearner]

Jesus is the ONLY Begotten of the Father John 3:16 so you are in error.

King James is a poor translation, the correct is something like ony unique. where did that spell checkr go?

 

[TheLearner]

You have a misunderstanding of what "only begotten" (monogenes) means.

Mono

Gene

Mono is simply "one", "only".

Mono is used in conjunction or connection, gene.

Gene refers to race or nature (that which makes up the content of essence), that which comes about or exists through/from another.

It's used this way even coming down to our English:

"gene (n.) 1911, from German Gen, coined 1905 by Danish scientist Wilhelm Ludvig Johannsen (1857-1927), from Greek genea "generation, race" (from PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget"). De Vries had earlier called them pangenes. Gene pool is attested from 1946." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/Gene

That is why the Father is called:

monon alethinon theon, ton theon

And because the Son is in the express image of the Father, is called:

monogene, logos en o theos

The Father's nature is His own, underived ("true"*), but the Son, because He is the Son has that same nature because of the Father.

True - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/true

Authentic - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/authentic

Original - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/original

It means underived.

So monogene in connection with monon alethinon theon means that the nature of the Son is of the Father and he is the only Son of the Father with that nature of the Father.

Created Angels and humans are sons, but not of that same nature as the Father and Son are.

In other words:

The Father is "The only true (underived in nature) God"

The Son is "The only begotten (derives His nature from the Father because He is the Son) God"

Remember, "only begotten" has nothing to do with time, or creation, or coming into existence in these contexts, but and only deals with the existing nature of the Son in relation to the Father.

I know what people think when I say that, but they need to understand the definition of what is said by saying it.

JEHOVAH Elohiym is the eternal family/relationship. JEHOVAH is the singular eternal family name, while Elohiym (Gods, trio) are the individual Persons/Beings that exist in that eternal family/relationship, Matt. 28:19; 1 Jhn. 5:7,8.

1. JEHOVAH, "the LORD" (Gen. 19:24b.; Zec. 3:2b.), "the Ancient of days" (Dan. 7:9,13,22) is "the only true God" (Jhn. 17:3; τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν θεὸν), "God" (Jhn. 1:1b.; τὸν θεόν), "thy God" (Heb. 1:9; ὁ θεός σου), "God the Father" (2 Jhn. 1:3; θεοῦ πατρός) the "person" (Job 13:8; Heb. 1:3) identified in the beginning as the "God said" (Gen. 1:6), for it was by Him that Revelation says, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (Rev. 4:11).

2. Jesus JEHOVAH (Gen.49:18; Exo. 14:13; 2 Chr. 20:17; Jon. 2:9; Psa. 119:174 HOT) or JEHOVAH Immanuel (see Psa. 46:7,11 HOT)), "the LORD" (Gen. 19:24a.; Zec. 3:2a.), "the son of man" (Dan. 7:13), "the only begotten" (Jhn. 1:14,18, 3:16,18; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9, is basically monogene (μονογενῆ; Jhn. 3:16; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9) or monogenes (μονογενὴς; Jhn. 1:18) or monogenous (μονογενοῦς; Jhn. 1:14, 3:18)), "the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father" (2 Jhn. 1:3; Κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ πατρός) is not "the only true God" (Jhn. 17:3), but is "the express image of his person" (Heb. 1:3; χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ), being "the Word was God" (Jhn. 1:1c.; θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος), who is "O God" (Heb. 1:9; ὁ θεός), the "just person" (Matt. 27:24, "person", 2 Cor. 2:10) indentified in the beginning as "God made" (Gen. 1:7) on behalf of the Father's direction (Pro. 8:22-36; Exo. 20:12), for it was by him (the Son) that John says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (Jhn. 1:3), that Ephesians says, "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:" (Eph. 3:9), that Colossians says, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" (Col. 1:16), that Hebrews says, "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" (Heb. 1:2), the very, "I AM THAT I AM" (Exo. 3:14), the great "I am" (Jhn. 8:58; ἐγὼ εἰμί), the very "fellow" (Zec. 13:7) of the Father's person, and who comes in the name of His Father (Jhn. 5:43).

3. The Holy Spirit of JEHOVAH (Luk. 4:18), "his Spirit" (Isa. 48:16), "the LORD" (Zec. 3:2c.), the "another Comforter" (Jhn. 14:6), even "he", "the spirit of truth" (Jhn. 14:17, 15:26, 16:13), "God" (Acts 5:4), identified in the beginning as "the Spirit of God moved" (Gen. 1:2) and "God saw" (Gen. 1 throughout, the eternal Witness who inspired the scriptures; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:21), by which/whom everything is "created" (Psa. 104:30) and "made" (Job 33:4), whose nature is a mystery left unspoken of in scripture, but is the person who does "not speak of himself" (Jhn. 16:13), but comes in the name of the Son (Jhn. 14:26).

The eternal Heavenly Trio - family JEHOVAH Elohiym, over all creation as "Godhead".

You mono is a common word study fallacy.

 

[TheLearner]

read to here

 

[posthuman]

Jesus is a "begotten" son. (John 1:14, John 1:18, John 3:16, John 3:18, Heb
11:17, 1John 4:9) which is quite different than a son who never had a
beginning via birth.

Philippians 2:5-8
Christ Jesus, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God, but did empty Himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, He humbled himself


Clearly pre-existing as God before humbling Himself to be made in the form of a man.

 

[posthuman]

The Son is "The only begotten (derives His nature from the Father because He is the Son) God"

i don't think this has so much to do with The Son being anything less than eternal, but with Christ being the only physical/visible manifestation of the invisible God.

 

[Webers.Home]

.

Philippians 2:5-8 Christ Jesus, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not
robbery to be equal to God, but did empty Himself, the form of a servant
having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in
fashionhaving been found as a man, He humbled himself

Christ's activity in the form of God was as the Word of John 1:1-3. But
his activity in the form of a man wasn't till John 1:14.

At that time, the Word divested himself of deity so that his flesh could come
into the world as a normal Jewish man instead of a divine Jewish man. The
Word's flesh is a divine Jewish man now, (Isa 52:13, Dan 7:13-14, John 17:5,
Phil 2:9-11) but it was very important that he not be prior to his crucifixion.
_

 

[ItsAdventageous]

Hey! Mr SDA or JW, Hebrews 1 is still there whether you choose to ignore it or not!

Please refrain from spreading heresies.

Thank you!

Hello P.E.

I have recently showed, by original source documentation that the subject is neither originating with SDA or JW, neither SDA or JW only doctrine. I would ask that you please refrain from attempting to alter the subject from Michael in scripture to denomination.

I have given the reply to Hebrews 1, not ignored it, as some seem to think.

Hebrews 1 is not against the position of the OP, but for it.

Hebrews 1:1-3, reveal that the Son is the highest messenger of the Father, and eternal and uncreated:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 1:4,7,14 all reveal that there are other messengers, which are created. These are in the office or position as the very "fellows" (Heb. 1:9) of the Son, who also has the position or office of messenger along with them.

The context of Hebrews 1:4,7,14 are of the created ("maketh") messengers ("angels"), not of the uncreated and eternal angel (Messenger) of the Father, known as the Son.

The word "angels" only means (in English, Hebrew or koine Greek, messengers, ambassador or that which carries a message from or for another). Uncreated and created are not part of the definition of the word. Context determines any further identification of the being, etc, spoken of.

In the case of the Son, He is the "angel (messenger) of the covenant", Malachi 3:1, and is identified as such throughout scripture. Since He is an "angel" (messenger), and He who is the "express image" of the Father, He is the Highest Messenger, for who else can it be questioned, Who is like unto God? The devil, in each case, when facing the Son, whether in Daniel, Zechariah, Jude or Revelation or elsewhere, must always battle that question, "Who is like unto God?", while the devil "Who is like unto the Beast?" (Genesis 3:1, Revelation 13:4).

 

[Locoponydirtman]

Primary source quotes please and thanks, daniel

Luther and Melancthon write extensively about the person of Christ through out the book of Concorde. He never mentions Micheal the archangel in those texts.

 

[posthuman]

the Word divested himself of deity

Simple math question:
How long does it take to empty infinity?


1 Timothy 3:16
God was manifested in the flesh


Your position finds itself in conflict with The Truth.

 

[posthuman]

What He did was take off His robe.

Isaiah 6:1
I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.

and His own knew Him not

 

[CS1]

You have a misunderstanding of what "only begotten" (monogenes) means.

Mono

Gene

Mono is simply "one", "only".

Mono is used in conjunction or connection, gene.

Gene refers to race or nature (that which makes up the content of essence), that which comes about or exists through/from another.

It's used this way even coming down to our English:

"gene (n.) 1911, from German Gen, coined 1905 by Danish scientist Wilhelm Ludvig Johannsen (1857-1927), from Greek genea "generation, race" (from PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget"). De Vries had earlier called them pangenes. Gene pool is attested from 1946." - https://www.etymonline.com/word/Gene

That is why the Father is called:

monon alethinon theon, ton theon

And because the Son is in the express image of the Father, is called:

monogene, logos en o theos

The Father's nature is His own, underived ("true"*), but the Son, because He is the Son has that same nature because of the Father.

True - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/true

Authentic - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/authentic

Original - https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/original

It means underived.

So monogene in connection with monon alethinon theon means that the nature of the Son is of the Father and he is the only Son of the Father with that nature of the Father.

Created Angels and humans are sons, but not of that same nature as the Father and Son are.

In other words:

The Father is "The only true (underived in nature) God"

The Son is "The only begotten (derives His nature from the Father because He is the Son) God"

Remember, "only begotten" has nothing to do with time, or creation, or coming into existence in these contexts, but and only deals with the existing nature of the Son in relation to the Father.

I know what people think when I say that, but they need to understand the definition of what is said by saying it.

JEHOVAH Elohiym is the eternal family/relationship. JEHOVAH is the singular eternal family name, while Elohiym (Gods, trio) are the individual Persons/Beings that exist in that eternal family/relationship, Matt. 28:19; 1 Jhn. 5:7,8.

1. JEHOVAH, "the LORD" (Gen. 19:24b.; Zec. 3:2b.), "the Ancient of days" (Dan. 7:9,13,22) is "the only true God" (Jhn. 17:3; τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν θεὸν), "God" (Jhn. 1:1b.; τὸν θεόν), "thy God" (Heb. 1:9; ὁ θεός σου), "God the Father" (2 Jhn. 1:3; θεοῦ πατρός) the "person" (Job 13:8; Heb. 1:3) identified in the beginning as the "God said" (Gen. 1:6), for it was by Him that Revelation says, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." (Rev. 4:11).

2. Jesus JEHOVAH (Gen.49:18; Exo. 14:13; 2 Chr. 20:17; Jon. 2:9; Psa. 119:174 HOT) or JEHOVAH Immanuel (see Psa. 46:7,11 HOT)), "the LORD" (Gen. 19:24a.; Zec. 3:2a.), "the son of man" (Dan. 7:13), "the only begotten" (Jhn. 1:14,18, 3:16,18; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9, is basically monogene (μονογενῆ; Jhn. 3:16; Heb. 11:17; 1 Jhn. 4:9) or monogenes (μονογενὴς; Jhn. 1:18) or monogenous (μονογενοῦς; Jhn. 1:14, 3:18)), "the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father" (2 Jhn. 1:3; Κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ πατρός) is not "the only true God" (Jhn. 17:3), but is "the express image of his person" (Heb. 1:3; χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ), being "the Word was God" (Jhn. 1:1c.; θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος), who is "O God" (Heb. 1:9; ὁ θεός), the "just person" (Matt. 27:24, "person", 2 Cor. 2:10) indentified in the beginning as "God made" (Gen. 1:7) on behalf of the Father's direction (Pro. 8:22-36; Exo. 20:12), for it was by him (the Son) that John says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (Jhn. 1:3), that Ephesians says, "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:" (Eph. 3:9), that Colossians says, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:" (Col. 1:16), that Hebrews says, "Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" (Heb. 1:2), the very, "I AM THAT I AM" (Exo. 3:14), the great "I am" (Jhn. 8:58; ἐγὼ εἰμί), the very "fellow" (Zec. 13:7) of the Father's person, and who comes in the name of His Father (Jhn. 5:43).

3. The Holy Spirit of JEHOVAH (Luk. 4:18), "his Spirit" (Isa. 48:16), "the LORD" (Zec. 3:2c.), the "another Comforter" (Jhn. 14:6), even "he", "the spirit of truth" (Jhn. 14:17, 15:26, 16:13), "God" (Acts 5:4), identified in the beginning as "the Spirit of God moved" (Gen. 1:2) and "God saw" (Gen. 1 throughout, the eternal Witness who inspired the scriptures; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:21), by which/whom everything is "created" (Psa. 104:30) and "made" (Job 33:4), whose nature is a mystery left unspoken of in scripture, but is the person who does "not speak of himself" (Jhn. 16:13), but comes in the name of the Son (Jhn. 14:26).

The eternal Heavenly Trio - family JEHOVAH Elohiym, over all creation as "Godhead".

wrong !

 

[CS1]

King James is a poor translation, the correct is something like ony unique. where did that spell checkr go?

Begotton and one and only is the context in any translation you would like to use.

The Spirit of Christ is Eternal from the beginning as we see in Gen 1 and John chapter 1

Jesus the man and God incarnate emptied Himself known as the doctrine of Kenosis. The man Jesus fully relied on the Holy Spirit as his flesh had not yet been glorified until the resurrection. I and my Father are one face to face.
ItsAdventageous is providing a bunch of information but is completely in error when HE lessens Jesus our Lord and reduces him to an angel like any other.



Philippians 2:10-11 KJV
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Revelation 4:8-11
8 The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying:

“Holy, holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:

11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”

 

[kinda]

Hello P.E.

I have recently showed, by original source documentation that the subject is neither originating with SDA or JW, neither SDA or JW only doctrine. I would ask that you please refrain from attempting to alter the subject from Michael in scripture to denomination.

I have given the reply to Hebrews 1, not ignored it, as some seem to think.

Hebrews 1 is not against the position of the OP, but for it.

Hebrews 1:1-3, reveal that the Son is the highest messenger of the Father, and eternal and uncreated:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 1:4,7,14 all reveal that there are other messengers, which are created. These are in the office or position as the very "fellows" (Heb. 1:9) of the Son, who also has the position or office of messenger along with them.

The context of Hebrews 1:4,7,14 are of the created ("maketh") messengers ("angels"), not of the uncreated and eternal angel (Messenger) of the Father, known as the Son.

The word "angels" only means (in English, Hebrew or koine Greek, messengers, ambassador or that which carries a message from or for another). Uncreated and created are not part of the definition of the word. Context determines any further identification of the being, etc, spoken of.

In the case of the Son, He is the "angel (messenger) of the covenant", Malachi 3:1, and is identified as such throughout scripture. Since He is an "angel" (messenger), and He who is the "express image" of the Father, He is the Highest Messenger, for who else can it be questioned, Who is like unto God? The devil, in each case, when facing the Son, whether in Daniel, Zechariah, Jude or Revelation or elsewhere, must always battle that question, "Who is like unto God?", while the devil "Who is like unto the Beast?" (Genesis 3:1, Revelation 13:4).

That's why I have so much respect for the S.D.A. faith, they know their Bible. I dare anyone to goto a Sabbath School Bible Study and determine for yourself. I would say, you would have a 50/50 chance of liking the people there though. It can be a little clicky from my experience.

Anyways, Adventageouos, I just want to encourage you, and keep the faith. Even though the majority seem to be against you.

God bless!

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

That is why the Father is called:

monon alethinon theon, ton theon

And because the Son is in the express image of the Father, is called:

monogene, logos en o theos


In other words:

The Father is "The only true (underived in nature) God"

You actually line up with the most authentic Greek we have: Read Verse 3 of my attachment: