Is Obedience Really "Works"? The Answer May Shock You!

[Galatians2-20]

*NOTICE: Before you respond, please read the entire post. Near the end, there are two questions for those who oppose the perspective being presented. If you are incapable of or not willing to try to answer these questions in a respectful manner, do not even bother to post your negative comments, insults, or accusations based on false assumptions.

Proverbs 27:17 ~ " As iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens [and influences] another [through discussion]."

Is Obedience Really "Works"? The Answer May Shock You!

Recently, I engaged in a conversation with someone who believes that a person can remain righteous while committing acts of unrighteousness. They went on to state that it is faith, not "works", which saves and that obedience to the Word of God is not required for salvation. I then presented the following "parable", which I had written some time ago, then asked a question.

Let's say you were drowning in rough seas. A captain of a nearby boat sees you struggling, rushes over, and pulls you out of the water. He then cleans you up, gives you a change of clothes, and allows you stay in his personal quarters, eating from his own table. He also instructs you to stay off the deck because it is very possible that the waves could pull you back into the water where you could drown.
You are now faced with three options:

#1. Trust the Captain and stay inside the boat, no self effort involved.
#2. Ignore the Captain, and jump back into dangerous waters where you will probably die.
#3. Flirt with disaster by going on deck on assuming that, if you do fall in, the captain will be there to rescue you, time and time again.

Now, common sense tells you that the easiest and safest option is to stay inside the boat. Biblical faith works similarly. Jesus saves us and accepts us into His Presence, which is life in the (Holy) Spirit. He then warns us to avoid temptation because to indulge in sin is to venture outside of His Presence.

However, in regards to salvation, most believers choose the equivalent of option #3. They go about living their lives with little regard to what the Bible says about the dangers of sin, assuming that God will be there to bail them out of trouble, again & again. Christ's primary role in daily their lives is that of a life preserver, needed only in emergencies.

True, biblical faith not only saves us but it also empowers us to live righteous, holy lives (2nd Peter 1:2-11). Yet, in order to avoid works of unrighteousness, today and each day after, we must walk in the Spirit for the (Holy) Spirit of Christ, Himself, is our (the gift of) righteousness (1 John 2:29, Ephesians 5:9, Galatians 5:16).

1st John 3: 5-7 ~ "This is the message [of God’s promised revelation] which we have heard from Him and now announce to you, that God is Light [He is holy, His message is truthful, He is perfect in righteousness], and in Him there is no darkness at all [no sin, no wickedness, no imperfection]. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness [of sin], we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we [really] walk in the Light [that is, live each and every day in conformity with the precepts of God], as He Himself is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another [He with us, and we with Him], and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin [by erasing the stain of sin, keeping us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations]."

It is a matter of choice to walk daily in the presence of He who makes us both righteous and holy (1st Corinthians 10:13). A person need not do anything to remain righteous or holy other than rest in Christ, placing all trust in Him and His word (1 Corinthians 1:30). It's when we take our focus off of God and give into temptation, that we take matters into our own hands, which results in separation from God.

1 John 3:9-10a ~ "No one who is born of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, because God’s seed [His principle of life, the essence of His righteous character] remains [permanently] in him [who is born again—who is reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose]; and he [who is born again] cannot habitually [live a life characterized by] sin, because he is born of God and longs to please Him. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are clearly identified: anyone who does not practice righteousness [who does not seek God’s will in thought, action, and purpose] is not of God..."

*Which brings me to my question(s):

Since when is it considered "works" not to do something? How is it that not participating in acts of unrighteousness is considered, by some, to be good works?

While abstaining from "works" of unrighteousness is indeed an "act" of faith, often times it is accomplished without any physical effort what so ever. It is an act of the will no different from faith itself. It is completely illogical to consider obedience to the word of God to be "good works" when, in most cases, such obedience is void of any self effort.

I challenge those who may disagree with the perspective that I have presented to prayerfully consider what I have stated. If you feel compelled to respond, please refrain from doing so UNLESS you feel you have a adequate rebuttal. Comments that do not address these questions will be ignored.

 

[Grace777x70]

As far as the believer that has Christ in them being "separated" from God - that is just a religious belief. Paul says this.

Romans 8:38-39 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

[SUP]39 [/SUP] nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As far as righteous and deeds of righteousness goes.

And this below is the difference between "works righteousness" and faith righteousness for salvation. ( as in going to be with the Lord when we die )

In the Old - you "did in order to get" In the New Covenant " you believe in order to receive" what Christ has already done. It's called the "word of faith" and it's enacted by speaking.

This is where works-based salvationists have a hard time with the gospel of the grace of Christ alone for salvation. They are mixing the covenants up and trying to do things in order to get and maintain salvation.

The pure gospel of the grace of Christ is offensive to this mindset and thus they need to do things in order to establish and maintain their own righteousness for salvation just like it was commanded in the Old Covenant.

In the New Covenant we receive Christ's righteousness because we believe NOT because "we do".

Doing righteous deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. This is having the cart before the horse.

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have good moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds" to help others.

Here is how righteousness is manifested to a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we are a new creation in Christ now!

This "righteousness " that we already have now in our new creation ( the inner man ) is because we are in Christ - will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and sin not. Awake means to "come to one's true self, to sober up to be who you already are".

When you see who you are in Him in your new man - you become like Him outwardly.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21[/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work - you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells.

 

[Grace777x70]

Resting in Christ and works? What does it mean to enter into the rest of Christ? Does this mean we do nothing?

I don't chafe at the term "our doing". We do participate in what God is doing in and through us.

For it is God who is at work in us - both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He gives us both the desire and the capability. Phil. 2:13

What I would chafe at is the notion that we put "the doing" from ourselves by self-effort and not from the life of Christ in us. It's all a matter of where this "work originates" from - our flesh or from our inner man in Christ.

Outwardly they can look the same. I know that only God that looks on our heart can answer that question but it is subtle difference between works-based righteousness and faith-based righteousness.

Another term I use a lot that may throw some off is that I say we are to "rest" in the finished work of Christ. The word "rest" can bring the connotations to our natural humanistic minds that we do nothing which is not the truth. It's the exact opposite.

I won't speak for the others but as far as works go from a believer in Christ - here is what I believe when considering John Chapter 15 and the "works" of a believer.

Jesus is the Vine - we are the branches. The branch bears fruit..it does not produce it.

Without Him we can do nothing. We are to remain/abide/rest in the Lord - abide/remain/rest in the Lord and what He has done for us in His finished work. John 15

The life of the Vine supplies the "sap" needed for the bearing of fruit but it is His fruit that is produced in us.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not a lazy passive existence. When we know that God has already provided everything we need and we access His wisdom, provision, strength by faith - we'll be governed by the Holy Spirit in a highly strategic and active life.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is not an inactive lifestyle. It's a Spirit-led lifestyle where we flow in His good works ( His fruit bearing in us ) that God had planned for us all along.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our obedience in action.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our warfare.

Resting/remaining/abiding in the Lord is our faith in action.

Hebrews 4:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

[SUP]11 [/SUP] Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

There is a vast difference between "us" doing things by the flesh and the Lord doing things through and in us. ( there is good looking flesh and bad looking flesh - but it is all still flesh )

We can do things in our own flesh like Abraham tried to fulfill the will of God by creating an Ishmael or wait for the Lord to work through us to produce the child of promise - Isaac. Galatians 4:22-24, 30

Psalm 127:1 (NASB)

Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.

Notice that "both" types are "building".

 

[Galatians2-20]

As far as the believer that has Christ in them being "separated" from God - that is just a religious belief. Paul says this.

Romans 8:38-39 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,

[SUP]39 [/SUP] nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Thank you for response. I will read through it more thoroughly and respond, in depth, when I have more time. Right now I am making preparations to return to work after a week's vacation.

If it's ok with you, I will address your rebuttal point by point, writing a post for each, rather than making one long post that is grueling to read. Right now, I will address your first point.

In order to understand Paul's statement in Romans 8: 38-39, we must look at them in the context they appear. The entire chapter of Romans 8 is dedicated to life IN THE SPIRIT. Just as the conversation ends with verse 39, it begins with verse 1. Throughout the chapter, Paul makes a clear distinction between those wo walk in the Spirit and those who walk in the flesh (commits acts of unrighteousness). Starting with Verse 3:

[SUP]"[/SUP]For what the Law could not do [that is, overcome sin and remove its penalty, its power] being weakened by the flesh [man’s nature without the Holy Spirit], God did: He sent His own Son in the likeness of sinful man as an offering for sin. And He condemned sin in the flesh [subdued it and overcame it in the person of His own Son], [SUP]4 [/SUP]so that the [righteous and just] requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not live our lives in the ways of the flesh [guided by worldliness and our sinful nature], but [live our lives] in the ways of the Spirit [guided by His power]. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For those who are living according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh [which gratify the body], but those who are living according to the Spirit, [set their minds on] the things of the Spirit [His will and purpose]. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Now the mind of the flesh is death [both now and forever—because it pursues sin]; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace [the spiritual well-being that comes from walking with God—both now and forever]; [SUP]7 [/SUP]the mind of the flesh [with its sinful pursuits] is actively hostile to God. It does not submit itself to God’s law, since it cannot, [SUP]8 [/SUP]and those who are in the flesh [living a life that caters to sinful appetites and impulses] cannot please God."

He continues in verse 9:
[SUP]"[/SUP]However, you are not [living] in the flesh [controlled by the sinful nature] but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God lives in you [directing and guiding you]. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him [and is not a child of God]. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If Christ lives in you, though your [natural] body is dead because of sin, your spirit is alive because of righteousness [which He provides]. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.

[SUP]12[/SUP]So then, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation, but not to our flesh [our human nature, our worldliness, our sinful capacity], to live according to the [impulses of the] flesh [our nature without the Holy Spirit]— [SUP]13 [/SUP]for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For all who are allowing themselves to be led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."

In these verses, Paul makes it obvious that he is referring to mature believers who actively walk in and are being led by the Holy Spirit. Paul makes the same distinction in the verses preceding the verses that you quoted:

[SUP]35 [/SUP]Who shall ever separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? [SUP]36 [/SUP]Just as it is written and forever remains written,

“For Your sake we are put to death all day long;
We are regarded as sheep for the slaughter.”


[SUP]37[/SUP]Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors and gain an overwhelming victory through Him who loved us [so much that He died for us].

[SUP]38[/SUP]For I am convinced [and continue to be convinced—beyond any doubt] that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present and threatening, nor things to come, nor powers,[SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the [unlimited] love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It is quite clear that, when the verses 38 & 39 are read in their scriptural context, that Paul is talking to mature believers who #1. follow after the leading of the Holy Spirit, and #2. abstain from the "works of the flesh" (unrighteousness).

 

[Grace777x70]

Thank you for response. I will read through it more thoroughly and respond, in depth, when I have more time. Right now I am making preparations to return to work after a week's vacation.

If it's ok with you, I will address your rebuttal point by point, writing a post for each, rather than making one long post that is grueling to read. Right now, I will address your first point.

In order to understand Paul's statement in Romans 8: 38-39, we must look at them in the context they appear. The entire chapter of Romans 8 is dedicated to life IN THE SPIRIT. Just as the conversation ends with verse 39, it begins with verse 1. Throughout the chapter, Paul makes a clear distinction between those wo walk in the Spirit and those who walk in the flesh (commits acts of unrighteousness). Starting with Verse 3:

[SUP]"[/SUP]For what the Law could not do [that is, overcome sin and remove its penalty, its power] being weakened by the flesh [man’s nature without the Holy Spirit], God did: He sent His own Son in the likeness of sinful man as an offering for sin. And He condemned sin in the flesh [subdued it and overcame it in the person of His own Son], [SUP]4 [/SUP]so that the [righteous and just] requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who do not live our lives in the ways of the flesh [guided by worldliness and our sinful nature], but [live our lives] in the ways of the Spirit [guided by His power]. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For those who are living according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh [which gratify the body], but those who are living according to the Spirit, [set their minds on] the things of the Spirit [His will and purpose]. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Now the mind of the flesh is death [both now and forever—because it pursues sin]; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace [the spiritual well-being that comes from walking with God—both now and forever]; [SUP]7 [/SUP]the mind of the flesh [with its sinful pursuits] is actively hostile to God. It does not submit itself to God’s law, since it cannot, [SUP]8 [/SUP]and those who are in the flesh [living a life that caters to sinful appetites and impulses] cannot please God."

He continues in verse 9:
[SUP]"[/SUP]However, you are not [living] in the flesh [controlled by the sinful nature] but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God lives in you [directing and guiding you]. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him [and is not a child of God]. [SUP]10 [/SUP]If Christ lives in you, though your [natural] body is dead because of sin, your spirit is alive because of righteousness [which He provides]. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.

[SUP]12[/SUP]So then, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation, but not to our flesh [our human nature, our worldliness, our sinful capacity], to live according to the [impulses of the] flesh [our nature without the Holy Spirit]— [SUP]13 [/SUP]for if you are living according to the [impulses of the] flesh, you are going to die. But if [you are living] by the [power of the Holy] Spirit you are habitually putting to death the sinful deeds of the body, you will [really] live forever. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For all who are allowing themselves to be led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."

In these verses, Paul makes it obvious that he is referring to mature believers who actively walk in and are being led by the Holy Spirit. Paul makes the same distinction in the verses preceding the verses that you quoted:

[SUP]35 [/SUP]Who shall ever separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? [SUP]36 [/SUP]Just as it is written and forever remains written,

“For Your sake we are put to death all day long;
We are regarded as sheep for the slaughter.”


[SUP]37[/SUP]Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors and gain an overwhelming victory through Him who loved us [so much that He died for us].

[SUP]38[/SUP]For I am convinced [and continue to be convinced—beyond any doubt] that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present and threatening, nor things to come, nor powers,[SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the [unlimited] love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It is quite clear that, when the verses 38 & 39 are read in their scriptural context, that Paul is talking to mature believers who #1. follow after the leading of the Holy Spirit, and #2. abstain from the "works of the flesh" (unrighteousness).

I am a firm believer in living a godly life based on the life of Christ manifesting in and through our lives. I believe right believing ( which is all based on what Christ has done by grace through faith in His finished work on the cross and resurrection ) will bring about right thinking ( a renewal of the mind) which will result in His life being manifested in and through us.

We will always have the flesh with us which has the power of sin in it. Romans 7:17-22 Only by walking by the spirit will we be able to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires.

We need to have the revelation of the circumcision of Christ which is where the new man in Christ has been "cut away" from the body of flesh. Col. 2:11 It is also called the circumcision of the heart.

God has removed us form the sin in our flesh as far as the east is from the west. We are still responsible for what we do in these bodies as we can yield either to the spirit or to the flesh. Sin does not affect this new creation in Christ. Sin does not drive out Jesus in our spirit.

In order to have a fuller understanding of Romans 8 - we need to start with the fact that believers in Christ are not "in the flesh" to begin with but "in the spirit" - this is a position of reality which is the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

The new creation in Christ has been sealed from the flesh by the Holy Spirit whom Jesus said would be in us forever. John 14:16 - Jesus does not lie to us.

Romans 8:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

I also agree that the believer who lives by the flesh will not experience the life of Christ that is ours as part of our inheritance for being in the kingdom of God.

The understanding of the "word of His grace" is needed in order for us to receive in this life the inheritance of what Christ has already provide for by His finished work on the cross and resurrection.

Acts 20:32 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] "And now I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

 

[Zen]

1st John 3: 5-7 ~ "This is the message [of God’s promised revelation] which we have heard from Him and now announce to you, that God is Light [He is holy, His message is truthful, He is perfect in righteousness], and in Him there is no darkness at all [no sin, no wickedness, no imperfection]. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness [of sin], we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we [really] walk in the Light [that is, live each and every day in conformity with the precepts of God], as He Himself is in the Light, we have [true, unbroken] fellowship with one another [He with us, and we with Him], and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin [by erasing the stain of sin, keeping us cleansed from sin in all its forms and manifestations]."

Is this considered adding to God's Word? I feel it's never a good idea to insert words in to scripture when trying to make a point.