Is Salvation an event or a process?
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The KJV is never better translation. Greek, perhaps. 17th Century english not so much.
If I was to go by the word of GOD "have been saved" then "are being saved" then "well be saved".
So yes I am a citizen of heaven.. I don't think there has been one person that fully understood salvation. Praise God I am always growing for what He started in me He will finish..
So yes I am a citizen of heaven.. I don't think there has been one person that fully understood salvation. Praise God I am always growing for what He started in me He will finish..
OK biblestudent78, I can answer each of your questions. You kind of caught me off guard because I've been waiting for someone in these rooms to ask the right questions for over 25 years. I kind of gave up that anyone ever would.
You've asked a number of them and I will begin to answer them in the morning. I hope you'll keep an eye out for them.
What if the Bible says what it means? The salvation of the soul? "Are receiving.........." To be born again is instant and irreversible. The salvation of the soul is a process. "Someone else's theology.........." What do you think the Bible is? You did not write it, that's for sure.
Gideon300:
My alarm bells start going off whenever any bible student anthropomorphizes the bible from 700,000 words and 66 or more books into a living thing by announces that it "speaks." It does not. The bible does not say anything....given you are not listening to someone read it. When I hear that phrase it says to me: be prepared for the bible to be systemized into total agreement with my church tradition, my personal beliefs or creeds, traditional statements of church faith. The preacher/pastor/priest may read highly selected quotations from one version/translation of the bible, but the bible does not speak.
To answer your question "What do you think the bible is" Here is a very brief response to your question
1. The Bible is a collection of ancient and relatively modern books written by authors known and unknown
2. Those writing the Bible were writing to the people alive when the books were written dealing with issues of their time and culture
3. The presentation of God in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are dramatically different.
4. The vast majority of Hebrew Bible was written long after the events it describes and ascribes authors that could not have been authors. There is no archeological evidence that the those living in ancient Canaan had the ability to write literary Hebrew. Textural experts see archaic spellings and letter types indicating there is reason to believe that by 800 BC or so, literary writing was a possibility. This was about 200 years or more after the life and times of important characters. The Kings, Prophets and Judges that lived before the invention of literary writing include:
Patriarchs & Leaders
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua
Kings of Judah - Southern
Saul, David, Solomon, Rehoboam, Abijah, Asa, Jehoshaphat, Jehoram, Ahaziah, Athaliah, Jehoash
Kings of Israel – Northern
Jeroboam I (founder), Nadab, Baasha, Elah, Zimri, Tibni, Omri, Ahab, Ahaziah, Joram, Jehu, Jehoahaz, Jehoash (Joash)
Prophets – North and South
Elijah, Elisha, Amos, Jonah, Hosea, Joel, Isiah & Mica lived on the cusp of literary Hebrew
Judges (saviors)
Othniel, Ehud, Shamgar, Deborah, Gideon, Tola, Jair, Jephthah, Ibzan, Elon, Abdon, Samson, Eli, Samuel, Joel, Abiah, Amariah and Zebadiah, Abimelech
Some of the authors of the Hebrew bible used other, non-biblical books as references for what they wrote. Few of any of these external sources exist today. As mentioned in the Hebrew bible, this includes the Book of Jasher, Book of the Wars of the Lord, Chronicles of the Kings of Israel, Chronicles of the Kings of Judah, (both mentioned over 30 times), Book of Shemaiah, Story of the Prophet Iddo, Book of Statutes, Acts of Solomon, Annals of King David, Book of Samuel the Seer, Book of Nathan the Prophet, Book of Gad the Seer, Book of Anijah, Book of Jehu, Acts of Uzziah, Vision of Isiah, Sayings of the Seers, Laments of Josiah and Chronicles of King Ahasuerus.
The Iron Age Hebrew society was comprised of competing groups with divergent religious traditions, political agendas and worldview. Biblical writers and editors did what they could to harmonize the Hebrew bible into a document library that met the needs and shaped the beliefs of the people of their time. Their written and oral stories are intended to bring harmony and executable law to the Jewish state which it founded. They accomplished that…and so much more!
The Hebrew Bible is foundational to all western civilization dating from 100 AD to current. It introduces concepts incorporated into our Nation's most fundamental documents, the Declaration of Independence, The Constitution and the Federalist Papers.
The New Testament, as we have it, is in constant revision as better scholarship brings increasing accuracy to the textual history. The New Testament is a recounting of known and unknown history focused on the first 100 yrs of the evolution of Christianity. Christianity itself offers an eternal connection to a Loving God through the loving self-sacrifice of Jesus the Christ.
On the ground Christianity has itself in human form been responsible for mankind's greatest acts of barbarity, brutality, murders, rapes, torchures, burnings, drownings and the destruction of entire civilizations in the "Name of Christianity." The historic linkage between Christianity and the interests of State/National Governments dating back to the 4th century demonstrates that for the majority of the existence of Christianity it has been the instrument of State capture. It is estimated the State sponsored Christianity has been responsible for over 100 million murders and infinitely more torchers of humanity than any other single mechanism of state sponsored predation.
Yet there as always been a remnant (see the Hebrew Bible for a definition) that has attempted to hold their personal behavior as a reflection of the God they worship even while the Christian abuses of the past with their feudal covenants of divisions continue to divide our modern Christian community, there are those fully able to sift the wheat from the chaff of creeds, catechisms, diversive orthodoxies and financially self-interested modern theologies to find conversion of heart, mind, soul and body.
Just to give you a reason for this outline. In 1987, i made a convent relationship with God, a contract. Not knowing this at the time, i was guided into making a daily, hourly if need be personal surrender to Him and live a life inspired by such surrender. It would be 12 to 15 yeras later when i found out through diligent seeking to know Him better that i would find that in the Vines Greek dictionary, that is the exact defintion of saving faith in the Bible. It was at that point i began putting together this outline.
There are things in the salvation process that must happen, and they must happen at the right time. This is outline of my salvation experience and those things that must happen and happen in the right order.
Just to make sure i'm understanding your question correctly ( the first one) You said,
"I want to call your attention to Gate 2 : The Acceptance of the surrendered life.
their manifestations of our Pistos? How do you you suggest we juxtapose Faith and Pistis (greater faith)?"
Could you be a little more specific with that first question? The rest of them are good.
You asked," How does one evaluate the quality (validity) of our faith? How do we determine if out faith is "sufficient" to be saving faith?
Ok I'm going to answer that from the stand point today, 38 years after i first started the continually surrendered life, i know the answer. The first 10 or 15 years of the covenant, i really couldn't answer that.
The answer: We don't, not really. We are making that surrender in the morning and at night, all day long if need be. We will have situations come up during each day, that will require a choice by us to show God we really do consider our lives to be His now and not ours. I always tried error on the side of caution no matter what the cost. Because much of this is happening simultaneously, the spiritual awakening, feeling His presence, the eventual sealing in of His spirit, God is doing something alot of the time that just seems to let you know you on the right track. The more i felt His presence, and the other things, it just made me want to make a better and better surrender, making choices eventually that i knew would satisfy the covenant. In the first few years, all these things happening, yes we are responding genuinely to the surrendered life, but He is actually driving it forward with those promised outcomes for faith, for pistis, for pisteuo, for a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.
Ultimately, we know and God knows if our surrendered life is genuine or not. It's not about perfection, but genuineness.
The fulcrum point of all Christians is their definition of faith. At 1 end of the spectrum is faith in the interpretive frameworks handed down through 500 yrs or so, or for 1,600 yrs. "This is what you must believe in to remain in our community. On the other end, the definition of faith is in the visibly converted day to day life of love and service..this is viewed by most of the other enders as "works," and while not forbidden it is held in very deep suspicion.
Thus juxtaposing faith and Pristos - deeper faith, I am wondering how you apply it. Is it deeper beliefs or deeper faith driven converted lives.
You asked, How do we know for sure that we have been "sealed? "Is there a sign?
All i can tell you is yes, something happens. Something that will leave no doubt you have been sealed. And how it happens, and how it feels is the sign. If i were to tell you what happens and how it feels, i would be kind of giving you something that isn't mine to give. And, i have only told a few people what happens exactly, The reason being is if you knew exactly how it happens, when you are making your covenant with Him, a continually surrendered life, you would have a subliminal expectation of getting something in return for your surrender, you'd be expecting something in return for it. Our surrendered life can't have any expectations of anything in return
, if we did, that wouldn't be a surrender but a business deal.
You said, " What are the signs that "dynamite power"?
The dynamite power that goes off is the result of the Holy Spirit being put in us. The result of that is an incontrollable desire to give. Just like those at Pentecost giving all they had , and begging with much begging to do it all over again. And those people were the poorest of the poor. They would be pillaged by the Romans on their way to fight wars, and pillage them again on the way home. This is the blessing that can't be contained. Can't be a Christian if we don't want to give!
You said, "Why does the "mind of Christ start praying without ceasing" only after the above events take place? Who is Jesus praying to?
The mind of Christ is a connection, a state of being. Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. This is fulfilled by having a that connection with Christ in our minds. In this state of being, we don't need to stop what were doing to make petitions to God, we are always connected to Him in thought. He knows us and we know Him. That is what i meant by praying without ceasing starts here.
You said, "Exactly when do our prayers to God become acceptable?
Our prayers become acceptable to Him when He is in us, and we are in Him. Rom. 8:9
Before that, we are accually enemies of His, right.
I too pray without ceasing. Mostly asking for forgiveness and inspiration. The other large component of my prayers are for God to continue to open my heart to the needs of others. I pray for my children and grandchildren daily. As I read and engage in this forum I pray that somehow we who all want to have an experience with Christ will come to find more humility and unity.
Because Gods word doesn't elaborate on what happens when the mind of Christ takes hold. To those it happens to not only have the gift of His mind, but the ability to know if it has happened to someone else, in a sense, knowing who is His or not. And also, to make sure nobody ever has the chance to parrot what i could say, ill never answer that question in public. We have to have the accual experience.
How does one pray without ceasing and have a need to ask forgiveness? Were you praying while sinning?
That's where the sanctification, the separation Paul taught of in Rom. 7 :14-21 happens.