Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

theLastEndWatcher · Dec 21, 2020

In the end, whichever doctrine we believe is irrelevant. Because God is going to do it His way anyway.
It's not as if a Post Tribber is going to be left behind if a Pre or Mid Trib happens, or going to be sent to the Lake of Fire for having a different interpretation.
The worst thing a Pre Tribber would worry about if they were wrong is "Oh. Well I guess it's going to be mid or post now, since the antiChrist is ruling the world and we haven't been Raptured yet." At that point? Just do your best to survive, keep the faith, do our God's business and don't take the mark.
For a Post Tribber if they got sucked up during a Pre Trib rapture the worst that's going to happen is "oh, well I was wrong but this is a pleasant surprise." And really it'd be the same for a Mid Tribber.

Absolutely · Dec 22, 2020

theLastEndWatcher said:

In the end, whichever doctrine we believe is irrelevant. Because God is going to do it His way anyway.
It's not as if a Post Tribber is going to be left behind if a Pre or Mid Trib happens, or going to be sent to the Lake of Fire for having a different interpretation.
The worst thing a Pre Tribber would worry about if they were wrong is "Oh. Well I guess it's going to be mid or post now, since the antiChrist is ruling the world and we haven't been Raptured yet." At that point? Just do your best to survive, keep the faith, do our God's business and don't take the mark.
For a Post Tribber if they got sucked up during a Pre Trib rapture the worst that's going to happen is "oh, well I was wrong but this is a pleasant surprise." And really it'd be the same for a Mid Tribber.

In the parable of the 10 virgins half the virgins( believers) are left behind

in mat 24 half the believers are left behind,and it is framed "before the flood" (before the gt)

ewq1938 · Dec 22, 2020

Absolutely said:

The foolish ones were left. It was wise virgins that were taken.

No, the order is same with ten virgins. The good or wise ones are taken, the rest are left. The Greek word for left means to be rejected and to leave to die which is what happens to those not worthy of being taken by bridegroom/Christ.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 22, 2020

theLastEndWatcher said:

You're still not getting it.

Yeah, "the worst that is going to happen TO YOU [the Christian/member of the Church which is His body]" who incorrectly believed it was going to be post-trib when it turned out to be pre-trib... but what you spelled out (to be "the worst that's going to happen" concerning YOU/the BELIEVER/MEMBER of the ONE BODY who happened to have it wrong) is NOT *all* that it affects.

Let's put a picture to it:

--[you] "Rapture is POST-trib"

--*poof* [Rapture happens PRE-trib--and YOU go UP with the rest of us... ALL MEMBERS of "the Church which is His body," REGARDLESS of which viewpoint they held!!]

--[your unsaved neighbor or best bud] "Harry always said 'rapture' was POST-trib. Some really great RELIGIOUS PEOPLE talking now are saying that *what just happened* was the '[reapers] gather ye *FIRST* the TARES [to be burned]' [Matt13]... I guess my best bud Harry was a false convert/false believer, coz LOOK AT THE SCRIPTURE, what they are SHOWING FROM SCRIPTURE *is TRUE*!!!! Harry is actually DOOMED [he was taken and cast into the furnace of the FIRE] just like SCRIPTURE SHOWS!! I'm going to really bear down and FOLLOW THESE RELIGIOUS PPL who are CORRECT coz SCRIPTURE SHOWS what they are saying IS TRUE!! [*best bud proceeds to follow hard after those of the anti-[/pseudo-]Christ*... to his ultimate doom... all because things in Scripture got BLURRED (and we incorrectly AFFIRMED it before we EXITED, so "best bud" thus had no accurate teaching--and he is existing on the earth DURING the time-period OF GREAT DECEPTION [which we had ADDED TO/AFFIRMED instead of CORRECTING while we were HERE!]), as far as Scripture and its "correctly apportioning" which we ARE CALLED TO DO! So (to *best bud's* mind), now that the "TARES [i.e. YOU among them]" have been gathered "OUT" (Matt13), he is awaiting that *POST-trib Rapture* shortly yet to come (which the DELUDED are endorsing IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs, but which WILL NOT COME--because it ALREADY happened "PRE," but they've been DELUDED that it had been SOMETHING ELSE ('judgment/cursing/doomed/condemned/burned in the fire/etc'--Matt13 incorrectly applied! as they will try to convince ppl and will be convinced of themselves, tho WRONG! [not saying EVERYONE in the trib will fall for that falsity! No!])]

So... "the worst thing that's going to happen TO YOU" is what you said (I agree--for those who are indeed saved in this present age)... but NOT "the worst thing that's going to happen TO OTHERS" as a result of this "mis-application" of Scriputes/"INcorrectly" apportioning/NOT distinguishing the things that differ (all of which we ARE called to do!)

"OTHERS" *are* affected (in ways that do not affect "the Church which is His body" who is Raptured "AS ONE" regardless of "rapture-timing viewpoints"). But plz consider OTHERS.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 22, 2020

ewq1938 said:

NO.

Sometimes it means (see BOLD below):

Strong's Concordance
aphiémi: to send away, leave alone, permit
Original Word: ἀφίημι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: aphiémi
Phonetic Spelling: (af-ee'-ay-mee)
Definition: to send away, leave alone, permit
Usage: (a) I send away, (b) I let go, release, permit to depart, (c) I remit, forgive, (d) I permit, suffer.

Strong's Greek: 863. ἀφίημι (aphiémi) -- to send away, leave alone, permit (biblehub.com)

See also the LISTING here:

Strong's Greek: 863. ἀφίημι (aphiémi) -- 146 Occurrences (biblehub.com)

Examples:

Matthew 6:12 V-AMA-2S
GRK: καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ
NAS: And forgive us our debts, as we also
KJV: And forgive us our
INT: and forgive us the

Matthew 19:14 V-AMA-2P
GRK: Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν Ἄφετε τὰ παιδία
NAS: said, Let the children
KJV: said, Suffer little children,
INT: Jesus said Let the little children

Mark 12:22 V-AIA-3P
GRK: ἑπτὰ οὐκ ἀφῆκαν σπέρμα ἔσχατον
NAS: and [so] all seven left no children.
KJV: her, and left no seed:
INT: seven not left seed last [meaning, "left" no seed remaining to carry on... (in this case, it's in the negative)]

[more...]

Absolutely · Dec 22, 2020

ewq1938 said:

The foolish ones were left. It was wise virgins that were taken.

No, the order is same with ten virgins. The good or wise ones are taken, the rest are left. The Greek word for left means to be rejected and to leave to die which is what happens to those not worthy of being taken by bridegroom/Christ.

YES
AND YES

Absolutely · Dec 22, 2020

BELIEVERS ARE BOTH TAKEN AND LEFT BEHIND

ewq1938 · Dec 22, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

Overwhelmingly the word is something very negative:

left
863

863 aphiemi {af-ee'-ay-mee}

from 575 and hiemi (to send, an intens. form of eimi, to go);
TDNT - 1:509,88; v

AV - leave 52, forgive 47, suffer 14, let 8, forsake 6, let alone 6,
misc 13; 146

1) to send away
1a) to bid going away or depart
1a1) of a husband divorcing his wife
1b) to send forth, yield up, to expire
1c) to let go, let alone, let be
1c1) to disregard
1c2) to leave, not to discuss now, (a topic)
1c21) of teachers, writers and speakers
1c3) to omit, neglect
1d) to let go, give up a debt, forgive, to remit
1e) to give up, keep no longer
2) to permit, allow, not to hinder, to give up a thing to a person
3) to leave, go way from one
3a) in order to go to another place
3b) to depart from any one
3c) to depart from one and leave him to himself so that all
mutual claims are abandoned
3d) to desert wrongfully
3e) to go away leaving something behind
3f) to leave one by not taking him as a companion
3g) to leave on dying, leave behind one
3h) to leave so that what is left may remain, leave remaining
3i) abandon, leave destitute

"to send away"
"of a husband divorcing his wife"
"to expire"
"to disregard"
"neglect"
"keep no longer"
"to leave on dying"
"leave behind one"
"abandon, leave destitute"

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 22, 2020

The CONTEXT of Matt25:1-13 ("the wedding FEAST/SUPPER") re: "the 10 [or 5] VirginS" is NOT who Jesus is coming to "MARRY".

Matt25:1-13's "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" does not come into play until Rev19! (NOT SO "the MARRIAGE" itself!

)

Absolutely · Dec 22, 2020

Two believers in a bed,one taken,one left

10 virgins waiting for Jesus with oil,light,lamps and camping with the ones that had more of the same,half taken,half left

Absolutely · Dec 22, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

he is coming for the bride,not the wife.

re read it.
they went into the marriage chamber

ewq1938 · Dec 22, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

Incorrect. bridegroom is going to spiritually marry a large number of symbolic/spiritual virgins also known as the body of Christ and Church. timeframe of that parable is second coming which is when He comes for his bride/s.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 22, 2020

ewq1938 said:

Paul says, "that *I* may PRESENT *A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]* to Christ" (not 10 nor 5... who are the "bridesmaids [PLURAL]" by contrast)... This pertains to the "betrothed" and "the MARRIAGE" itself (whereas the others [PLURAL] pertain to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" i.e. the EARTHLY MK age, commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth [NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"]).

Matt25:10,1 = "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (upon His RETURN to the earth). They "went in WITH [G3326 - meta - accompanying] Him;
Not "WITH [G4862 - syn - UNION-with] Him"

theLastEndWatcher · Dec 22, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

You're still not getting it.

Yeah, "the worst that is going to happen TO YOU [the Christian/member of the Church which is His body]" who incorrectly believed it was going to be post-trib when it turned out to be pre-trib... but what you spelled out (to be "the worst that's going to happen" concerning YOU/the BELIEVER/MEMBER of the ONE BODY who happened to have it wrong) is NOT *all* that it affects.

Let's put a picture to it:

--[you] "Rapture is POST-trib"

--*poof* [Rapture happens PRE-trib--and YOU go UP with the rest of us... ALL MEMBERS of "the Church which is His body," REGARDLESS of which viewpoint they held!!]

--[your unsaved neighbor or best bud] "Harry always said 'rapture' was POST-trib. Some really great RELIGIOUS PEOPLE talking now are saying that *what just happened* was the '[reapers] gather ye *FIRST* the TARES [to be burned]' [Matt13]... I guess my best bud Harry was a false convert/false believer, coz LOOK AT THE SCRIPTURE, what they are SHOWING FROM SCRIPTURE *is TRUE*!!!! Harry is actually DOOMED [he was taken and cast into the furnace of the FIRE] just like SCRIPTURE SHOWS!! I'm going to really bear down and FOLLOW THESE RELIGIOUS PPL who are CORRECT coz SCRIPTURE SHOWS what they are saying IS TRUE!! [*best bud proceeds to follow hard after those of the anti-[/pseudo-]Christ*... to his ultimate doom... all because things in Scripture got BLURRED (and we incorrectly AFFIRMED it before we EXITED, so "best bud" thus had no accurate teaching--and he is existing on the earth DURING the time-period OF GREAT DECEPTION [which we had ADDED TO/AFFIRMED instead of CORRECTING while we were HERE!]), as far as Scripture and its "correctly apportioning" which we ARE CALLED TO DO! So (to *best bud's* mind), now that the "TARES [i.e. YOU among them]" have been gathered "OUT" (Matt13), he is awaiting that *POST-trib Rapture* shortly yet to come (which the DELUDED are endorsing IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib yrs, but which WILL NOT COME--because it ALREADY happened "PRE," but they've been DELUDED that it had been SOMETHING ELSE ('judgment/cursing/doomed/condemned/burned in the fire/etc'--Matt13 incorrectly applied! as they will try to convince ppl and will be convinced of themselves, tho WRONG! [not saying EVERYONE in the trib will fall for that falsity! No!])]

So... "the worst thing that's going to happen TO YOU" is what you said (I agree--for those who are indeed saved in this present age)... but NOT "the worst thing that's going to happen TO OTHERS" as a result of this "mis-application" of Scriputes/"INcorrectly" apportioning/NOT distinguishing the things that differ (all of which we ARE called to do!)

"OTHERS" *are* affected (in ways that do not affect "the Church which is His body" who is Raptured "AS ONE" regardless of "rapture-timing viewpoints"). But plz consider OTHERS.

When we get to the point where you are nit picking grammer to make your point, or spelling at that point I'm going to start disregarding everything that has come after.
Because it shows that you have completely missed the point: You are not going to be punished for getting it wrong.
So relax, chill and stop hammering on people.

ewq1938 · Dec 22, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

Doesn't change that each saved Christian whether male or female are going to spiritually marry Christ. In parable there are multiple brides

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 22, 2020

theLastEndWatcher said:

I said I AGREE with that. YOU and I are NOT going to "be punished" for getting it wrong.

It's not US I'm concerned about (nor ANY OTHER member of "the Church which is His body"). We will ALL GO IN THE RAPTURE regardless as to whether or not we got the "timing" right.

It's not [ANY OF] US that I am [expressing] my CONCERN about (if you'd read my entire post, you might have seen that).

ALL OF US will go in the Rapture (REGARDLESS of our view on its TIMING), as I've pointed out many times, including the following passage in 1Th5 (part of PAUL'S POINT also!) -

[quoting old post]

Notice in the following passage I'm always pointing out... see how verses 6 and 10 have the SAME GREEK WORDS [same 2 Grk words]

1 Thessalonians 5:6-11 - [said to/for/about "the Church which is His body," ALL those saved "in this present age"] -

6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others, but we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober.

7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night.

8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet, the hope of salvation,

9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] OR whether we might sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen], we may live together with [G4862 - syn - 'UNIONED-with'/'IDENTIFIED-with'] Him.

11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as also you are doing.

...note that THIS [Grk word for] "sleep" is an altogether distinct Grk word from the "sleep [G2837 - koimōmenōn / koimēthentas] of the PREVIOUS CHPT in 1 Thessalonians 4:13,14,15 (speaking of "the dead in Christ" of v.16, in that chpt).
1Th5:6,10 is not speaking of being "asleep" in death, like the previous chpt is.

So this passage is saying that "whether we may watch, OR whether we may sleep" (same context as what v.6 is speaking about)... which is distinct from what certain passages are stating in the Olivet Discourse, for example, and other related passages
(like Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN from the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347] [they must "WATCH"!! or else!]... which is also not a "Rapture" passage, etc.)

[end quoting old post]

____________

It's not "US" [ALL THOSE SAVED in this present age] that is my concern, on this Subject. But those who WILL BE EXISTING on the earth IN the trib years (our words TODAY can have an eternal negative impact on them THEN, when IN/DURING/WITHIN the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period [Rev1:1/19:19c/4:1], i.e. the 7-yr trib years, a time of GREAT DECEPTION [2Th2:9a, etc]...)

All I am exhorting us about is to NOT ADD TO THEIR *CONFUSION* (I'm not saying that to have a false understanding of the timing AFFECTS *ANY OF US* as far as going in the rapture, IT DOES NOT--That is NOT who is adversely affected by such!)

But... WHO CARES about *THEM,* right?!?!

[I *do* say that "what we SAY NOW will have consequences [for us]... not "damnation," no... but impacting "reward" at least... because of how it affects OTHERS, see... ]

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 22, 2020

Absolutely said:

If you're talking about Matt25, I see the various versions have it as:

--"the wedding/marriage FEAST"

--"the wedding/marriage SUPPER"

--"the wedding/marriage FESTIVITIES"

--"the wedding/marriage HALL"

--"the wedding/marriage BANQUET"

--"the marriage-FEASTS"

I see none that say "marriage CHAMBER" (as though "FIVE VIRGINS [PLURAL]" were going in with Him THERE. NO.)
Where are you seeing that particular word??

Ex: "the wedding FEAST at Cana" had in attendance MULTIPLE "guests [plural]" [vv.1,2], and "servants [plural]" [vv.5,6] and even present with them there was "the master of the banquet/feast [or] headwaiter" [v.8] (TONS OF PPL!!)... NONE OF THESE speaks of "the marriage CHAMBER" which was an INTIMATE affair, pertaining SOLELY TO the WEDDED COUPLE THEMSELVES!

]

When Jesus (in this John 2 passage) says to His mother, "mine hour is not yet come," He was referring to the fact that it was the "bridegroom's" responsibility to provide the wine for his OWN "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" per vv.9b-10a/b of John 2 (note also what Jesus states in Matthew 26:29 ['accompanying you']--Compare also Lk22:16,18,30 with Matt19:28 [and then 25:31-34 for its TIMING]).

ALL DURING the trib years is when the "[Rev19:9] having been INVITED" will have taken place, that is, the INVITATION (of the "guests [plural]") TO the earthly MK age (the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES). Those folks never lift off the earth, but are present on the earth upon His "RETURN" there (because this is NOT "rapture-[timing-]related" at all).

____________

Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [parallels in Matt24] "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (as "ALREADY-WED"!)... THEN the meal [G347]

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 23, 2020

ewq1938 said:

... the same could be said of the following word, in the FIRST EIGHT of its 9 occurrences total...

G4714 - stasis/stasin -

Definition: a rebel, revolutionist

Usage [quoted IN PART]: an insurrection, dissension; [...]

Strong's [quoted IN PART]: a popular uprising; figuratively, controversy -- dissension, insurrection, [...], uproar

[see also the *LIST of the FIRST EIGHT (of only NINE TOTAL) occurrences at BOTTOM of post]

...but try to insert THAT *VERY NEGATIVE* DEFINITION into its 9th occurrence, here:

Heb9:8-9a -

8 By this the Holy Spirit was signifying that the way into the holy places has not yet been made manifest, the first tabernacle [the one in the wilderness, per the "furnishings" in v.4!] still having A STANDING [G4714 - stasis/stasin], 9 which is a symbol/PARABLE for the present time...

*LIST of the FIRST EIGHT [of 9 total] occurrences (Look at how *HORRIBLY NEGATIVE* THESE ARE!!!):

1) Mark 15:7 N-DFS
GRK: ἐν τῇ στάσει φόνον πεποιήκεισαν
NAS: imprisoned with the insurrectionists who
KJV: murder in the insurrection.
INT: in the insurrection murder had committed

2) Luke 23:19 N-AFS
GRK: ἦν διὰ στάσιν τινὰ γενομένην
NAS: into prison for an insurrection made
KJV: for a certain sedition made in
INT: was on account of insurrection a certain having been made

3) Luke 23:25 N-AFS
GRK: τὸν διὰ στάσιν καὶ φόνον
NAS: into prison for insurrection and murder,
KJV: him that for sedition and
INT: him who on account of insurrection and murder

4) Acts 15:2 N-GFS
GRK: γενομένης δὲ στάσεως καὶ ζητήσεως
NAS: great dissension and debate
KJV: no small dissension and disputation
INT: Having taken place therefore a commotion and discussion

5) Acts 19:40 N-GFS
GRK: κινδυνεύομεν ἐγκαλεῖσθαι στάσεως περὶ τῆς
NAS: of being accused of a riot in connection
KJV: for this day's uproar, there being no
INT: we are in danger to be accused of insurrection in regard to

6) Acts 23:7 N-NFS
GRK: εἰπόντος ἐγένετο στάσις τῶν Φαρισαίων
NAS: there occurred a dissension between the Pharisees
KJV: there arose a dissension between the Pharisees
INT: put forth there was a dissension of the Pharisees

7) Acts 23:10 N-GFS
GRK: δὲ γινομένης στάσεως φοβηθεὶς ὁ
NAS: And as a great dissension was developing,
KJV: a great dissension, the chief captain,
INT: moreover arising dissension having feared the

8) Acts 24:5 N-AFP
GRK: καὶ κινοῦντα στάσεις πᾶσιν τοῖς
NAS: and a fellow who stirs up dissension among all
KJV: a mover of sedition among all
INT: and moving insurrection among all the

Now, are we to INSIST that the NINTH OCCURRENCE (Heb9:8, quoted at TOP) *also* be the "VERY NEGATIVE" definition, simply because the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of verses with this word *ARE* "VERY NEGATIVE" ??

I hope not!!

The CONTEXT ITSELF dictates whether it is the negative or the positive definition (since either definition is LEGIT [there's not just ONE "definition"]... and this word, LIKE the word under discussion ['left G863], CAN BE *either* positive OR negative!!)

ewq1938 · Dec 23, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

Since this is a DIFFERENT word I would call this a red herring fallacy. To be "left" means to be rejected. The timeframe of one taken and one left is the second coming with Christ taking or leaving people. Clearly taking would be equated to rapturing or taking people UP to clouds while the rest being left where they are because they are destined for the wrath of God.

echoChrist · Dec 23, 2020

ewq1938 said:

God revealed to me what it truly is and I can’t believe hardly anyone knows it’s right in the Bible.

Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

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