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Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?
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L
LT
Guest
sorry if I sounded argumentative. I do disagree with the Hebrew Roots Movement, or whatever they'd like to call it, because of the fruit I've seen from it.
I do not judge any individual, and I excuse myself from the debate, as nothing productive ever happens with this topic.
I do not judge any individual, and I excuse myself from the debate, as nothing productive ever happens with this topic.
V
Veritas
Guest
Yeshua addressed this yoke of bondage when he spoke to the pharisees:
[SUP]46[/SUP] And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
It wasn't the Torah he was speaking of. Did you read my very first post along with the words of Messiah?
LT, your interpretations of "law" are broad, undefined, and not in agreement with scripture or Christian history on this subject. I have numerous books on Bible law, all by reputable scholars and all refute your liberal antinomian position. Your definition of law would have us believe that Psalm 119, the entirety of which describes the Law of the Lord is also describing a temporary only form of religious hocus pocus. How can you not realize this? Psalm 1 and 119 teach the exact opposite of what you are claiming in your posts. Someone, apparently, has convinced you of a teaching that that was unheard of until recent decades. Your interpretation of law is so broad that it leaves no room for right or wrong. It denies the Bible definition of sin ("sin is the transgression of the law" [1 John 3:4]).
U
Ukorin
Guest
Paul dealt with the Torah in Galatians.
The author of Hebrews also dealt with the Torah.
If you want to celebrate Sabbath on Saturday, go ahead.
If you want to get circumcised, go ahead.
If you want to abstain from pork, go ahead.
If you want to dress like an Israeli and use Israeli terms, go ahead.
Just know that there are Scriptures that release you from needing to do these things.
V
Veritas
Guest
There is some background to these passages. A covenant requires blood to be shed. Yes? When Yeshua's blood was shed for all it was a renewing of a covenant. What Paul was saying is those fully grown men coming to the faith from paganism had no need to cut their foreskin off in order to enter into covenant with YHWH because Yeshua shed His blood. It was not necessary.
V
Veritas
Guest
I think there is something productive from this question. We are working out how much we should believe in OT scripture, what can be taken out of these words of God. Whether learning how God operates helps us know how Christ operates. What is the relationship between the way law is presented in scripture, is there a major difference? We have learned that God does not demand rituals in our walk, should we learn why God suggested them in the first place and if that has anything to do with God's eternal way of being. Are rituals forbidden to us? I could go on and on, and I think it is worthwhile to think about these things and search for God's way in them.
V
Veritas
Guest
Food for thought: 1Thes:[SUP]7[/SUP] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.[SUP]8[/SUP] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[SUP]9[/SUP] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[SUP]10[/SUP] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11[/SUP] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[SUP]12[/SUP] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
[SUP]9[/SUP] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[SUP]10[/SUP] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11[/SUP] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[SUP]12[/SUP] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
U
Ukorin
Guest
void is not a useful word in this.
Those who are in Christ are no longer condemned by the Law, which includes the 10 Commandments. No sin can be held against Believers on the Last Day, because the Blood of Christ has cleansed us of them. Some will go so far as to call this 'voiding them', but that is going too far.
The 10 Commandments, like the rest of the Law, still holds wisdom and is useful for edification, rebuke, and instruction in righteousness. Those who are weak in conscience will need to simply follow the words, and those who are strong will follow what is between the lines... the spirit.
Salvation is not the issue. Maturity is the issue.
Continue reading the Word, meditating upon it, and praying without cease, and maturity is promised through the work of the Holy Spirit.
Putting yourself under more regulations is just gonna hamper your growth, by distracting your efforts from following Christ to following rules. Christ is about doing more than abstaining from sin, but pushing further into actually DOING righteousness.
Perfection is not abstinence from sin, but about having so many good things to do that there is no time to sin.
V
Veritas
Guest
RedTent, you are correct. It IS worth thinking about. If we look at Christianity we see all the separate sects therein. Many have been called cults at one time or another. I don't care about all that. I made up my mind some time ago that I did not want lies or dogmas or doctrines of men. I am in pursuit of the truth.
Some folks want to make fun of me. Even on this chat! That's okay, it's nice to have an elder join in to add reasonable questions. Thank you.
Some folks want to make fun of me. Even on this chat! That's okay, it's nice to have an elder join in to add reasonable questions. Thank you.
V
Veritas
Guest
So Ukorin, you didn't answer me about whether or not you read my very first post as a member on this thread.
If it is, the antinomian position I see on these pages is more so. Their interpretation of "law" contradicts what Psalm 1, Psalm 119, and scores of other references say on this subject. Their interpretation of "law" is so broad that it leaves no definition for sin. It is in total disagreement with what Jesus meant when saying "every word" (Matt. 4:4), and Paul when saying,"all scripture" (2 Tim. 3:16). Those of the antinomian position are denying the very laws used by Jesus as His moral compass. If, their all encompassing definition of "law" is correct why does 1 John remind us that "sin is the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4)? Was John confused, or are those who claim that Jesus came to abrogate that which defines sin?
lol,,null and void? men tried their best for years to make peace between themselves and the father,doves,goats and bulls,to make peace between themselves and god,,then after one sacrifice was completed and the next was then set in it's order the years went by,and at the end of these the final sacrifice was set upon the cross,,,
many years the priest looked at the grain and reckoned the time of the first fruits of the harvest and told the Hebrew when to come to the feast,,this month or that month so that it was the first fruit of the harvest ,,then there was an time and the final sacrifice was made ready,,an virgin was with child,and he was prepared and set forth on the alter of god as ordained.
there are only these to speak of the ten,and the sacrifices being presented to god at the alter for the breaking of the ten,,the child was then set upon the alter and the final sacrifice required by the father was received. the law requires an end sacrifice that is the son of god nothing left out of it's order,first the sinners bringing the sacrifice and the priest receiving it unto the ordnance,then the receiving it by god.
who then after this will bring a sacrifice to the alter other than one who denies the sacrifice brought before it?,that is if one sacrifice is full and accepted by god let none bring another and say the one before it is not pure as if it is judged blemished. without spot and without blemish bring the end of the sacrifices,that is the cross and let any whom in their heart,worry or doubt let him find another than the grace given by the law of god,,,
U
Ukorin
Guest
I don't see when you asked me... but yea, that's where i started reading from today.
I just do not see how your thinking can be the same as scripture tells us. We aren't condemned by the law for we have forgiveness available through Christ, but Christ asks us to follow the law. Not only that, but follow a stricter, harder to follow law than the ten commandments for we are also to follow in truth and spirit. That way not murdering expands to not calling anyone "you fool". More rules.
So how is this going to hamper your growth? It seems to me the way to hamper growth is to not follow these instructions. You call this following rules, and following what Christ tells us to do is not following rules and Christ? That can't be.
U
Ukorin
Guest
you are implying that lawlessness is the necessary result of grace?
You are not arguing for Hebrew roots, but for legalism. Stick to the topic.
As for what you are saying, you are very mislead. There is a balance between legalism and antinomianism. It is not either/or.
It seems you have not found the balance that is in Scripture.
I just finished posting this in another thread, however, looks like it would be relevant here in this thread. Please note that I am referring only to the 10 Commandments written in stone by God Himself not all the other laws that were given to Moses.
I would also like to add that I don't believe the Sabbath was ever just a Jewish law as it was originally given to Adam and Eve at creation as a celebration of the end of the creation week. Yes, I believe that God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Angels and Adam and Eve all celebrated that very First Sabbath and I believe it will be celebrated in heaven after Satan, evil angels, wicked, sin and death is destroyed.
I have never said that the 10 Commandments could save anyone. Unfortunately I have literally broken all 10 Commandments and I'm not proud of it. I had an abortion in my 20's I can't go back and change it, but I praise God that He has forgiven me with His grace. That was about 30 years ago - so believe me when I say I understand Gods grace.
However, I do believe that they are the rules that show us what sin is and what God expects and has asked us to obey. Have I obeyed them NO I can't Jesus did it for me that is called Grace.
I do not believe the 10 Commandments were nailed to the cross as some do. God thought it was important enough to write the rules of His government down on stone with His finger. When we all get to heaven the rules will still be in place, but they will all be obeyed out of love to God and our fellow man.
I'm talking about in heaven now when we have been made perfect. We will honor Gods rules there will never be stealing, killing, lying, adultery, coveting, in heaven we will all love God with all our hearts, we will not put anything above God as in no idols, we will keep Sabbath it says so in Isaiah 66:23, we will still love an honor our parents and no one will take Gods name in vain in heaven. Actually the whole chapter of Isaiah 66 is a good read the and the last few verses are talking about heaven.
Jesus is our Savior and His death on the cross paid the price for our salvation and reconciliation to God the Father. I so look forward to getting back to the Garden of Eden state that Adam and Eve started in. To be able to walk and talk face to face with God what glory, honor and praise is due our Savior
I would also like to add that I don't believe the Sabbath was ever just a Jewish law as it was originally given to Adam and Eve at creation as a celebration of the end of the creation week. Yes, I believe that God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, Angels and Adam and Eve all celebrated that very First Sabbath and I believe it will be celebrated in heaven after Satan, evil angels, wicked, sin and death is destroyed.
I have never said that the 10 Commandments could save anyone. Unfortunately I have literally broken all 10 Commandments and I'm not proud of it. I had an abortion in my 20's I can't go back and change it, but I praise God that He has forgiven me with His grace. That was about 30 years ago - so believe me when I say I understand Gods grace.
However, I do believe that they are the rules that show us what sin is and what God expects and has asked us to obey. Have I obeyed them NO I can't Jesus did it for me that is called Grace.
I do not believe the 10 Commandments were nailed to the cross as some do. God thought it was important enough to write the rules of His government down on stone with His finger. When we all get to heaven the rules will still be in place, but they will all be obeyed out of love to God and our fellow man.
I'm talking about in heaven now when we have been made perfect. We will honor Gods rules there will never be stealing, killing, lying, adultery, coveting, in heaven we will all love God with all our hearts, we will not put anything above God as in no idols, we will keep Sabbath it says so in Isaiah 66:23, we will still love an honor our parents and no one will take Gods name in vain in heaven. Actually the whole chapter of Isaiah 66 is a good read the and the last few verses are talking about heaven.
Jesus is our Savior and His death on the cross paid the price for our salvation and reconciliation to God the Father. I so look forward to getting back to the Garden of Eden state that Adam and Eve started in. To be able to walk and talk face to face with God what glory, honor and praise is due our Savior
U
Ukorin
Guest
Are you placing the ceremonial laws alongside the 10 Commandments?
Let us 1st separate the 'Law' and call it the 10 Commandments.
All else will be referred to as 'Mosaic regulations'.