Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?

[Shiloah]

I have been watching this thread and reading your posts with great interest. You have been verbally attacked and responded as I like to see someone respond. By that I mean that I see you putting a lot of effort into responding without nastiness, anger, and such. It is the effort to do better that I see in you, that pleases me and I know pleases God. I struggle often with my attitude toward people who seem to want to stay ignorant, and have to bite my tongue, not just in the forum but in everyday life here where I live. Willful ignorance is one of my pet peeves. This is the truth: as Sunday school teachers, my husband and I have both been told, "Don't teach us anything we don't already know." Disgusting isn't it? For people to attempt to take advantage of our Heavenly Father's grace like that is just one example of "counterfeit Christians" (great label there!) that has emboldened me in recent years to write commentaries on spiritual topics without tiptoeing through the tough stuff. ("Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, because I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." Matthew 11:29) So, there has been a benefit, but my heart aches because of how these people treat our Adonai.

You inspire me! Thank you!

May ADONAI bless you and keep you.
May ADONAI make his face shine on you and show you his favor.
May ADONAI lift up his face toward you and give you peace.
Numbers 6:24-26 (CJB)

Thank you so much for your kind support. Obviously, I need to work on never saying anything that would not give glory to my Lord though, and I'm very aware of that and know I must keep working at it through constant prayer. I've got some great examples on these threads I need to watch closely and imitate. I hope you people know who you are, though I've said as much now and then. I just don't want to list or I fear I might leave someone out, which tells me there's lots of godly people here I can and do learn from. Thanks again.

[FONT=&quot]Ephesians 6:12 * For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.[/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Psalm 118:8 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

lol, this is even better.

I should have said what God spoke through paul

 

[john832]

1st off. Just-us-2. This should prove my point.

Now to John.

Running a race to earn a reward.

can you explain romans 4 to us? How if abraham worked he would earn reward. but not before God. He Trusted God and God acredited to his account righteousnessness.

Paul is not talking about keeping salvation. he is talking about earning eternal rewards, and being a light in this world where God can use him.

A christian who becomes a hypocrite, or falls into a sin habit, and does not try to break out of it, loses his light, and can not be used by God. they are castaways in the work of God and held powerless.

It does not say they lose salvation.



Again, Keep on trying to earn your salvation. You will fail.

Paul spoke of eternal life. He spoke of the eternal seal of the spirit. he spoke of passing from death to life. He KNEW he would make it because he said quite plainly his wish was to be absent from the body and present with the lord (if he did not know his eternal life was secure, he would never make such a claim) he spent 4 chapters in ephesians proclaiming the eternal rest we HAVE in Jesus based not on our works, but on his grace and mercy. He spent romans doing the same, There is no more condemnation. He spent most of his public ministry fighting these people who claimed you could lose salvation if you did not line up to Gods law.

Now who should I trust? You or paul??

Well thank you very much, but I really can't take credit for those statements, see those abbreviations with numbers after them, those are not my statements, those are from a book you should try reading, the Holy Bible. The comments there that I quoted are from the Apostle Paul, they are not my words.

What I find interesting is that clear scriptures Paul wrote saying that he could be cast off are hard to argue with, so what you have to do is find a way to twist it around to try to say that those are my comments and not Pauls. Beleive what you like and say what you like. Misrepresenting me and what I say is nto really important in the schemem of things, I certainly am not perfect, but misrepresenting what Paul wrote that was canonized is something you may wish to consider.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well thank you very much, but I really can't take credit for those statements, see those abbreviations with numbers after them, those are not my statements, those are from a book you should try reading, the Holy Bible. The comments there that I quoted are from the Apostle Paul, they are not my words.

No they are your misinterpreted words of paul. Your trying to make his say something

1. He did not say (taking him out of context)
2. Contradict him self (in other passages where he speaks openly of KNOWING where he would spend eternity, and not fearing he would ever loase that. because it is not in him but in Christ.

People can quote passages of scripture all the time. It does not prove they are correct.

 

[Shiloah]

Yes,, But we have ALL DONE THESE THINGS have we not?

What red tent and john do not realise is something separates us from others who continue to do those things. that is the point I am trying to make.

Again, if you had been around and KNOW what they teach, you would understand this.



lol. No maam. that is not the case. And I am not trying to be rude, or disrespectful. Just trying to show you what I see.

The case is I continue to sin, we ALL DO. the more mature in Christ we become, the more sinfull we realise we are (thats why the law CONTINUES to be the schoolmaster.

If we focus on just these few sins, we will never see our true nature, and never be able to grow.

A christian who gets drunk will not realise the true blessings God has to bestow on him, And will miss out on alot of Gods blessing. does that mean that Christian is not saved because he struggles with a sin? Don't we ALL struggle with certain sins?

If struggling with a sin is causes out ticket to heaven to be voided. God is a liar. And we are not under grace, but under law.

They teach we can void salvation. Thus they teach a gospel which is not from God. but is based on mans ability to work.

She's perfectly capable of reading all the posts on these threads. Clearly you have misunderstood their message all along or you wouldn't ask if the writer still sacrifices animals.

My God is no liar. My God laid our for me laws that are perfect for the purpose of giving me guidance as I walk with Him through life during which time, by His grace and only with the help of the Holy Spirit, I allow Him to complete His good work in me.

You evidently just can't seem to separate doing God's will and what He asked us to do out of love for Him because of what He has already done for us and doing God's will so you'll either earn or keep your salvation. You continually make it about earning salvation which has already been earned and accomplished by Christ alone. So what then? Do we sit on our hands and do nothing? When we first receive that salvation, we're mere babes in Christ. From there we desire to grow in Him if we truly love Him and He abides with us.

I look forward to celebrating with Messianic Jews which remind us again and again of God's perfect plan and how it was fulfilled in Christ, which ultimately resulted in the salvation of everyone who comes to Him.

I'm sorry you can't understand the difference between doing God's will out of love or simply celebrating Him in this manner and doing everything we do just to earn of keep your salvation. I fear this is the way you think on every level, hence, you can't understand thinking or acting beyond that.

 

[Grandpa]

I am so happy that you have changed your mind and heart about the Mosaic Law, and all the Old Testaments covenants that have been completed, and properly identified in their fullness through Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior. In addition, I thank you for treating my wife (just-us-2) with so much kindness. Wonderful! Simply wonderful

I would invite you to join into the discussion about our human nature that we all have in the other thread that I started yesterday called;


“DOES HUMAN NATURE VANISH AS SOON AS WE ARE BORN AGAIN?”

I haven't changed my mind about the Mosaic Law.

I know what it is and what its for.

For a second I thought Just-us-2 and you did too...

I didn't say that it was an awesome testimony that your wife was greatly edified by learning more about culture in biblical times and jewish custom. I said it was an awesome testimony that she came to the Lord as a child asking Him for Wisdom and Knowledge in the Revelation of Him. I recognized that this is the first and most important step of Christianity and I thought Just-us-2 did too.

Did you think that I'm against the bible, God's written word? You shouldn't have been so nice if you thought that...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

She's perfectly capable of reading all the posts on these threads. Clearly you have misunderstood their message all along or you wouldn't ask if they still sacrificed animals.

Clearly you do not understand the just of my question. Or you would not have made such a remark.

Paul said if we are going to go back to even one part of the law. we are indebted to keep the whole law. So it is reasonable to ask if they are doing part of it, Why are they not doing all of it??

My God is no liar. My God laid our for me laws that are perfect for the purpose of giving me guidance as I walk with Him through life during which time, by His grace and only with the help of the Holy Spirit, I allow Him to complete His good work in me.

My God is no liar either, He wrote his laws in my heart. But as a typical human in the flesh, I hide these laws because as romans 1 says, I want to be my own God (my flesh) thus he wrote the law on tablets. so I may be shut up and all my excuses go away. He used the nation of Israel to prove to the world we can not live up to his standard. he used the things he told them to do as a picture to lead us to christ when he came. so we would know him.

The law can not make me righteous, Only faiht in Christ can. and only by looking at the things of the spirit will I learn to be like him.

You evidently just can't seem to separate doing God's will and what He asked us to do out of love for Him because of what He has already done for us and doing God's will so you'll either earn or keep your salvation. You continually make it about earning salvation which has already been earned and accomplished by Christ alone. So what then? Do we sit on our hands and do nothing? When we first receive that salvation, we're mere babes in Christ. From there we desire to grow in Him if we truly love Him and He abides with us.

Maam, Many people in hear teach this. If you would listen you would see this.

I question everyone. Peole like Just me and just us 2 have proven they do not believe this. Others, like John, prove they do not believe this, They deny doing it to earn salvation, yet all they do is preach it.

YOU need to learn the difference and see people for what they are.

No one here is teaching we should just sit still or ocntinue in sin.

They are teaching the grace of God and how to learn to grow in it, and in doing so, grow in him

They are ALSO fighting the legalistic works based gospel which comes from the pits of hell. If you believe that salvation is solely of grace, and can never be lost, because it is not based on us, but on what Christ did. You should be fighting this to, and not defending them.

I look forward to celebrating with Messianic Jews which remind us again and again of God's perfect plan and how it was fulfilled in Christ, which ultimately resulted in the salvation of everyone who comes to Him.

I'm sorry you can't understand the difference between doing God's will out of love or simply celebrating Him in this manner and doing anything we do just to earn of keep your salvation. I fear this is the way you think on every level, hence, you can't understand thinking or acting beyond that.

I look forward to celebrating with ALL of Gods people, whether they be jew or gentile. because ALL of them have shown Gods love mercy and grace.

 

[Shiloah]

I haven't changed my mind about the Mosaic Law.

I know what it is and what its for.

For a second I thought Just-us-2 and you did too...

I didn't say that it was an awesome testimony that your wife was greatly edified by learning more about culture in biblical times and jewish custom. I said it was an awesome testimony that she came to the Lord as a child asking Him for Wisdom and Knowledge in the Revelation of Him. I recognized that this is the first and most important step of Christianity and I thought Just-us-2 did too.

Did you think that I'm against the bible, God's written word? You shouldn't have been so nice if you thought that...

It is wonderful that she came to Christ and was saved by grace. She simply doesn't desire remaining a babe in Christ subsisting on milk alone, hence, she's now looking for meat to eat to put her on path where she can, in God's time, come to the full knowledge of God.

 

[Grandpa]

Grandpa, you agree to scripture? I am amazed. You have said all the old passed away when scripture said the first convenant passed away, the covenant with Adam based on works. Adam's part was not to eat the apple. The new covenant was what Christ gives us of forgiveness, the HS, etc. You said the new covenant was grace, mercy and love. That is not what the bible says. It says we have always had grace, mercy and love. You go on about free in Christ. You seem to imply it means we should listen to some law you have in your head, not scripture. We are free in Christ because the law does not mean our death, we have forgiveness. You say the law was given because of Hebrew transgression. I don't find that in the bible except when a scripture is read using logic. Our logic says that if this is so it is common sense that is so. I have never seen you stay strictly, exactly to scripture and God asks that of us. Now, you are accepting scripture?

If you understood coming to Christ you would never talk like this. You would understand more of the new testament.

How can I explain Spiritual concepts to you when you think they are against scripture? Then I show you the scripture that explains them even better than I do and you think those are against scripture too because you don't understand.

Do we come to Christ based on our works of the law? No.

We come to Christ by faith. This is the moment of our first Victory.

Do you want more Victory? Keep coming to Christ by faith.

The Mosaic Law is not of faith, but the person that does them shall live in them.

 

[Shiloah]

Clearly you do not understand the just of my question. Or you would not have made such a remark.

Paul said if we are going to go back to even one part of the law. we are indebted to keep the whole law. So it is reasonable to ask if they are doing part of it, Why are they not doing all of it??


My God is no liar either, He wrote his laws in my heart. But as a typical human in the flesh, I hide these laws because as romans 1 says, I want to be my own God (my flesh) thus he wrote the law on tablets. so I may be shut up and all my excuses go away. He used the nation of Israel to prove to the world we can not live up to his standard. he used the things he told them to do as a picture to lead us to christ when he came. so we would know him.

The law can not make me righteous, Only faiht in Christ can. and only by looking at the things of the spirit will I learn to be like him.



Maam, Many people in hear teach this. If you would listen you would see this.

I question everyone. Peole like Just me and just us 2 have proven they do not believe this. Others, like John, prove they do not believe this, They deny doing it to earn salvation, yet all they do is preach it.

YOU need to learn the difference and see people for what they are.

No one here is teaching we should just sit still or ocntinue in sin.

They are teaching the grace of God and how to learn to grow in it, and in doing so, grow in him

They are ALSO fighting the legalistic works based gospel which comes from the pits of hell. If you believe that salvation is solely of grace, and can never be lost, because it is not based on us, but on what Christ did. You should be fighting this to, and not defending them.



I look forward to celebrating with ALL of Gods people, whether they be jew or gentile. because ALL of them have shown Gods love mercy and grace.

Unfortunately I do understand it. That's why I said what I said.

 

[Shiloah]

If you understood coming to Christ you would never talk like this. You would understand more of the new testament.

How can I explain Spiritual concepts to you when you think they are against scripture? Then I show you the scripture that explains them even better than I do and you think those are against scripture too because you don't understand.

Do we come to Christ based on our works of the law? No.

We come to Christ by faith. This is the moment of our first Victory.

Do you want more Victory? Keep coming to Christ by faith.

The Mosaic Law is not of faith, but the person that does them shall live in them.

You repeat and repeat the same things and yet continually arrive at the same false conclusions. She has come to Christ by faith and continually does so, over and over. That's why she is now able to see the worth of the Law written by Christ's own hand. Without Him? Obviously it's means nothing and saves no one. With Him, it represent His truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Unfortunately I do understand it. That's why I said what I said.

No, evidently you don't understand, And this comment proves it.

Thats too bad.

 

[Grandpa]

It is wonderful that she came to Christ and was saved by grace. She simply doesn't desire remaining a babe in Christ subsisting on milk alone, hence, she's now looking for meat to eat to put her on path where she can, in God's time, come to the full knowledge of God.

If you point people back to the Law and tell them to accomplish it that is not learning the first lesson you should have been taught.

If you did indeed learn the lesson of the schoolmaster why would you go back to follow the shadow?

This is the exact reason why hebrew roots can be dangerous.

Galatians 3:1-2
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

 

[just-me]

It is wonderful that she came to Christ and was saved by grace. She simply doesn't desire remaining a babe in Christ subsisting on milk alone, hence, she's now looking for meat to eat to put her on path where she can, in God's time, come to the full knowledge of God.

That's great the way you explained it. Years ago, when I was teaching Sunday School, and holding a revival, I was mentioning the Mosaic Law as a benefit to Spiritual growth. After explaining the benefits of that concept, and saying it was because of the love of God that He has kept those writings intact, I asked the question; "how many here are satisfied with their Spiritual understanding?" An elderly man spoke up and said; "I've been saved for over 20 years, and am still a babe and that's good enough for me." It wasn't too long after that, that the deacons, and pastor of the church prohibited me from saying anything, and ultimately I was expelled for endorsing the validity of the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

By not rightly dividing the word of truth, andputting a negative spin on certain parts of the Bible, do we mistakenly putourselves on the same level as the Pharisees? I think it's something toconsider, for they too, denied the original truth of the Mosaic Law.

John 5:45-47 (KJV)
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[Grandpa]

You repeat and repeat the same things and yet continually arrive at the same false conclusions. She has come to Christ by faith and continually does so, over and over. That's why she is now able to see the worth of the Law written by Christ's own hand. Without Him? Obviously it's means nothing and saves no one. With Him, it represent His truth.

What are these false conclusions?

Apparently neither you nor she sees the worth of the law.

 

[just-me]

You repeat and repeat the same things and yet continually arrive at the same false conclusions. She has come to Christ by faith and continually does so, over and over. That's why she is now able to see the worth of the Law written by Christ's own hand. Without Him? Obviously it's means nothing and saves no one. With Him, it represent His truth.

I've noticed that. I've seen it over and over myself. There is a certain prohibition which I can't understand. No one is denying Christ by describing the assets given to us by the writings of Moses. I can't understand the negative spin. No one is saying that it justifies, no one is saying that we are righteous only if we obey something we know we can't. There is no contradiction. If the true church through Christ would be hindered in any way by the Mosaic Law, then I would have to say God's love isn't real. If one considers the truth in the Mosaic Law, then one can see that it defines love in detail because God gave it, and preserved it, for GOD IS LOVE. Why in heaven's name would He desire for us to have something that would turn us away from Him?

 

[just-us-2]

What are these false conclusions?

Apparently neither you nor she sees the worth of the law.

Hmm, so you think I don't understand the law and see its worth? I thought we had come to a meeting of the minds on this but apparently not. So, I have no choice but to cease discussion of this topic with you because:
Romans 14:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

Yes, I am saying that I will no longer discuss this with you because it genders strife.
2 Timothy 2:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

This has gone round and round way more than should be necessary for reasonably intelligent people who all supposedly believe in the One True God and His Word. I have better things to do with my time.

 

[Shiloah]

Hmm, so you think I don't understand the law and see its worth? I thought we had come to a meeting of the minds on this but apparently not. So, I have no choice but to cease discussion of this topic with you because:
Romans 14:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

Yes, I am saying that I will no longer discuss this with you because it genders strife.
2 Timothy 2:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

This has gone round and round way more than should be necessary for reasonably intelligent people who all supposedly believe in the One True God and His Word. I have better things to do with my time.

Thanks for posting those scriptures. Nothing like "straight to the point" scriptures to make things crystal clear.

 

[Grandpa]

That's great the way you explained it. Years ago, when I was teaching Sunday School, and holding a revival, I was mentioning the Mosaic Law as a benefit to Spiritual growth. After explaining the benefits of that concept, and saying it was because of the love of God that He has kept those writings intact, I asked the question; "how many here are satisfied with their Spiritual understanding?" An elderly man spoke up and said; "I've been saved for over 20 years, and am still a babe and that's good enough for me." It wasn't too long after that, that the deacons, and pastor of the church prohibited me from saying anything, and ultimately I was expelled for endorsing the validity of the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 5:17-20 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

By not rightly dividing the word of truth, andputting a negative spin on certain parts of the Bible, do we mistakenly putourselves on the same level as the Pharisees? I think it's something toconsider, for they too, denied the original truth of the Mosaic Law.

John 5:45-47 (KJV)
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

There is no spiritual growth in beholding the Mosaic Law. This is your first mistake and probably why you were expelled.

There is only spiritual growth in beholding our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. This is what the Mosaic Law should have taught you.

There is spiritual perspective and understanding in the Mosaic Law that shows and points to what the Lord Jesus Christ has already done for us and completely fulfilled. You know, after you have been saved you can look back and understand, oh... that's why they did that... that's what that was pointing to...

This is what happens when you try to blend Law and Grace. You get confusion and error.

Feed my sheep. With what, the Mosaic Law? How absurd. The Bread of Life is what His sheep need.

That is what the religious fail to understand. Not that the Lord Jesus was under the Mosaic Law during His Life but that He Himself is what His Church needs. Nothing but the Blood of Jesus...

Oh Precious is the flow
That makes me white as snow
No other fount I know
Nothing but the Blood of Jesus

O foolish so and so, who has bewitched you? Did the Law cause your growth in the Spirit or did the Blood of the King??

 

[Grandpa]

Hmm, so you think I don't understand the law and see its worth? I thought we had come to a meeting of the minds on this but apparently not. So, I have no choice but to cease discussion of this topic with you because:
Romans 14:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

Yes, I am saying that I will no longer discuss this with you because it genders strife.
2 Timothy 2:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

This has gone round and round way more than should be necessary for reasonably intelligent people who all supposedly believe in the One True God and His Word. I have better things to do with my time.

That post wasn't to you. Shiloah had responded to a post that I sent to RedTent. I was including Shiloah and RedTent in the post to Shiloah.

That's what I meant by being more clear and not misunderstanding...

This is basic Christianity. If we can't agree that we are under Grace and not under Law then we just can't agree...

I also thought we had come to an understanding...