Is the Rapture Secret?

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Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
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It seems common for people to deny the rapture (though it is a Bible fact harpagesometha = we shall be raptured in 1 th 4:17) and even to sneer at it as the secret rapture theory. IMHO, the secrecy vs visibility debate matters little, and has nothing to do with being pre or post trib. (Maybe for a preterist it is figurative and visible only in people's imaginations? It is a prophecy of persons getting excited in revival meetings & jumping pews???)

IMHO, the rapture might be rated on a scale of 0-10, whereby
0 = nobody sees it; not even the raptured see themselves going up.
5 = half of the people see it.
10 = everybody sees it, even unsaved persons locked in the restroom (without window or TV), and you can imagine the visibility scale of 1,2,3,4, 6,7, 8, 9.

My guess is that the secrecy/visibility lies somewhere in 1-9, but I don't know.

Does anyone have a verse for the visibility rating or secrecy rating?
Does any verse say it will be secret?
 
It seems common for people to deny the rapture (though it is a Bible fact harpagesometha = we shall be raptured in 1 th 4:17) and even to sneer at it as the secret rapture theory. IMHO, the secrecy vs visibility debate matters little, and has nothing to do with being pre or post trib. (Maybe for a preterist it is figurative and visible only in people's imaginations? It is a prophecy of persons getting excited in revival meetings & jumping pews???)

IMHO, the rapture might be rated on a scale of 0-10, whereby
0 = nobody sees it; not even the raptured see themselves going up.
5 = half of the people see it.
10 = everybody sees it, even unsaved persons locked in the restroom (without window or TV), and you can imagine the visibility scale of 1,2,3,4, 6,7, 8, 9.

My guess is that the secrecy/visibility lies somewhere in 1-9, but I don't know.

Does anyone have a verse for the visibility rating or secrecy rating?
Does any verse say it will be secret?



The rapture will be in a twinkling of an eye, So fast that people won't see it.
 
The rapture will be in a twinkling of an eye, So fast that people won't see it.

1975, thanks for the ref. Does the verse refer to the rapture, the catching up being as fast as the twinkling of an eye, or does it refer to the speed of transformation (from unglorified to glorified body)? If the body is suddenly changed, does that prove the speed of the rapture -- being too fast to see?

"but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
 
I think if two are working and one is taken, it would not be secret

But what does working together, and one being taken in judgment, the other left on earth to enter the Millennial Kingdom have to do with the Rapture? The Olivet Discourse has no mention of "ekklesia" (Church) nor rapture -- no one is taken up to a meeting with the Lord in the air in the Olivet Discourse (Mat 24 & parallels).
 
I think if two are working and one is taken, it would not be secret

Does this refer to the coming and the resurrection? Or does it refer to a flight to a place of safety?

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

If this were the resrrection, why would you even consider going back into the house to grab your suitcase with a change of underwear and a toothbrush? But if you were going to a desert place for 3-1/2 years, you might consider trying to take some extra amenities with you.
 
Got a number for non-existent?
Good afternoon John.

A number for non-existent. How about - ∞ ?

1 Thes 4:17 harpagsometha = rapiemur = we shall be raptured (caught up).
The rapture is the catch-up (no mustard) of 1 Thes 4:17. Christians disagree on its timing, its relation to the Trib, and whether it is the same as Christ's return to take over earth -- but the rapture itself is a Bible fact.
 
Does this refer to the coming and the resurrection? Or does it refer to a flight to a place of safety?

Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Luk 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
Luk 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.
Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luk 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luk 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

If this were the resrrection, why would you even consider going back into the house to grab your suitcase with a change of underwear and a toothbrush? But if you were going to a desert place for 3-1/2 years, you might consider trying to take some extra amenities with you.

Great post, John.

Here is the answer to your question:

"If this were the resrrection, why would you even consider going back into the house to grab your suitcase with a change of underwear"

The reason would be that you feared you were lost, and never saved, and thus needed to take your asbestos underwear with you.
 
But what does working together, and one being taken in judgment, the other left on earth to enter the Millennial Kingdom have to do with the Rapture? The Olivet Discourse has no mention of "ekklesia" (Church) nor rapture -- no one is taken up to a meeting with the Lord in the air in the Olivet Discourse (Mat 24 & parallels).

Matthew 24:30-36
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


It says they will see him
 
1975, thanks for the ref. Does the verse refer to the rapture, the catching up being as fast as the twinkling of an eye, or does it refer to the speed of transformation (from unglorified to glorified body)? If the body is suddenly changed, does that prove the speed of the rapture -- being too fast to see?

"but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,


According to the Bible they are both at the same time.
 
Matthew 24:30-36
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


It says they will see him



Every one will see Jesus when He comes back.
But the rapture isn't the second coming of Jesus.
 
Matthew 24:30-36
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


It says they will see him

But DamomBomb:

The question is about the visibility vs. secrecy of the Rapture, not of Christ at His coming. Your quote says nothing about either the Church nor the rapture. The elect here are gathered "from the four winds," not into the four winds, from the end of the heavens, not into Heaven. There is no catching up to a meeting with the Lord in the air.
 
Good afternoon John.

A number for non-existent. How about - ∞ ?

1 Thes 4:17 harpagsometha = rapiemur = we shall be raptured (caught up).
The rapture is the catch-up (no mustard) of 1 Thes 4:17. Christians disagree on its timing, its relation to the Trib, and whether it is the same as Christ's return to take over earth -- but the rapture itself is a Bible fact.

If you are referring to a resurrection at the return of Christ then I am in agreement. This will happen in the twinkling of an eye but if you are referring to the false doctrine of the "rapture" that was originated by Fransisco Ribera in 1585-90 and then popularized by John Nelson Darby circa 1830, then that is hogwash.
 
According to the Bible they are both at the same time.

1975:

Let's see the scripture which indicates that the transformation does not immediately precede the rapture? Where is the speed of the rapture mentioned? If the transformation is instantaneous, how does that prove the speed of the rapture?
 
The rapture is strictly a church event. It does not have any place in the prophecy given to Israel regarding the end times. This is why it should be place at the very beginning of the tribulation period. the tribulation is all about Israel and not the church.

If you are not a born again person you have nothing in the rapture.

The world will notice after the fact that the rapture has occurred. They will explain it as alien abduction of something like that but God has said that they will receive strong delusion that they will believe the lie.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
1975:

Let's see the scripture which indicates that the transformation does not immediately precede the rapture? Where is the speed of the rapture mentioned? If the transformation is instantaneous, how does that prove the speed of the rapture?




The transformation and the rapture happen in a twinkling of an eye, At the same time.
See 1 Cor 15: 51--52, With 1 Thess 4: 14--17.
 
The rapture is strictly a church event. It does not have any place in the prophecy given to Israel regarding the end times. This is why it should be place at the very beginning of the tribulation period. the tribulation is all about Israel and not the church.

If you are not a born again person you have nothing in the rapture.

The world will notice after the fact that the rapture has occurred. They will explain it as alien abduction of something like that but God has said that they will receive strong delusion that they will believe the lie.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

?????

Rev 5:9 And they sung a song new, saying: Worthy thou art to receive the scroll, and to open the seals of it; because thou wast slain, and didst buy back for the God us with the blood of thee out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation;

Is the martyrdom only about Israel?

Rev 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those having been killed because of the word of the God, and because of the testimony which they held;
Rev 6:10 and they cried with a voice great, saying: How long, the sovereign the holy one and true one, not thou judgest and avengest the blood of us from those dwelling on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And was given to them a robe white, and it was said to them, that they should rest yet a time, till should be completed also the fellow-slaves of them and the brethren of them, those being about to be killed as even they.

Is this only about Israel?

Rev 6:12 And I saw when he opened the seal the sixth, and an earthquake great was, and the sun black became as sackcloth of hair, and the moon whole became as blood,
Rev 6:13 and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth, as a fig-tree casts the untimely figs of her by a wind great being shaken,
Rev 6:14 and the heaven was separated from as a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island out of the places of themselves were moved;
Rev 6:15 and the kings of the earth and the great ones and the commanders and the rich ones and the strong ones, and every bondman and every freeman hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
Rev 6:16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks: Fall you on us, and hide you us from face of the one sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the lamb;
Rev 6:17 because came the day the great of the wrath of him; and who is able to stand?

Only Israel?

Rev 7:9 After these things I saw, and lo a crowd great, which to have numbered him no one was able, out of every nation and of tribes and of peoples and of tongues, standing in presence of the throne and in presence of the lamb, having been clothed robes white, and palms in the hands of them;

I think Christ summed it up here...

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The only occurrence that fits this description is the Great Tribulation.

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Israel? or the church?

Ooops, got a little trigger happy there and hit reply before I was finished. Anyhoo, tie in Rev 3:10 with this...

Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Protection in a place of safety not a rapture to heaven.
 
Is this only about Israel?everyone in the tribulation

only the church in Philadelphia is hidden saftly

we are in about to spit them out of his mouth churches hear


these 7 churches where physical, but the whole bible has dual

his candle sticks are history of his church

we are at the last one, that i cant spell or pronance

keep asking , prove all things
 
these are the saints maytered in past in the dark ages

we are waiting for more saints to die for Gods sabbath total 144000

the cathloc church marked them for keeping the sabbath

but it was rome that tortured them to acept sunday worship

rome is the mark of the beast

this will happen again with germany as rome with 5 east and 5 west come together again

rusia is pushing at him and germany will grow

and again the cathloc church will ride the beast

when you see german troups in jersulam, run for the hills and hope its not a sabbath