It's like I said the word death is spoken of many times in the bible but dos not always imply that death is where it ends. As I said death is only the beginning the second death speaks of eternal torment it speaks of a person going into eternal hell fire you asked and you received I have evidence and what you decide to with that is up to you
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Hello Magenta,
Let's address the following only in order to avoid jumping from scripture to scripture. You wanted one scripture that demonstrates that the soul of man is immortal. Please see the scripture below:
"And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
The scripture above is of course from Rev.14. In order for the smoke of their torment to rise up for ever and ever, the individual would have to be existing in order to be able to experience said torment. The word "basanismos" translated "torment" means to torture. If the individual was annihilated immediately upon hitting the fire, then the smoke of their torment could not ascend up for ever and ever and that because they would be non existent.
"There will be no rest day or night"
This part of the scripture further cements in the meaning of on-going punishment, for unless there is conscious existence, one could not experience not having no rest day or night. The word "anapausis" translated "rest" is
defined as having no cessation, no intermission from said torment in flame.
Your problem continues in not understanding that the word "destruction" which is translated from the word "apollumi" does not mean annihilation or non existence, but of loss of well being and complete ruin while existing. You need to look to the Greek words and their meanings and not just the translated word.
Life and death are two states of conscious existence. Separation from God and on-going conscious punishment in the lake of fire is the state of death. While on-going existence in the joy of the Lord is life.
Let's address the following only in order to avoid jumping from scripture to scripture. You wanted one scripture that demonstrates that the soul of man is immortal. Please see the scripture below:
"And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
The scripture above is of course from Rev.14. In order for the smoke of their torment to rise up for ever and ever, the individual would have to be existing in order to be able to experience said torment. The word "basanismos" translated "torment" means to torture. If the individual was annihilated immediately upon hitting the fire, then the smoke of their torment could not ascend up for ever and ever and that because they would be non existent.
"There will be no rest day or night"
This part of the scripture further cements in the meaning of on-going punishment, for unless there is conscious existence, one could not experience not having no rest day or night. The word "anapausis" translated "rest" is
defined as having no cessation, no intermission from said torment in flame.
Your problem continues in not understanding that the word "destruction" which is translated from the word "apollumi" does not mean annihilation or non existence, but of loss of well being and complete ruin while existing. You need to look to the Greek words and their meanings and not just the translated word.
Life and death are two states of conscious existence. Separation from God and on-going conscious punishment in the lake of fire is the state of death. While on-going existence in the joy of the Lord is life.
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Good day Blain! You are correct in your assessment of eternal punishment as being on-going and conscious, for the word of God is very clear on this subject. There just seems to be those who refuse to accept this truth. The thee main words used often translated as "destroyed" or "destruction" are the words "Apollumi, Apoliea and Olethros" none of which are defined as annihilation or extinction. And I'm writing this more for Magenta's benefit. Let's consider the following scripture:
"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."
The word "destruction" in the verse above is translated from the Greek "Olethros" which is defined as the following:
ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
If you will notice, right in the definition of the word, which is underscored and highlighted in red, states that olethros does not imply extinction or annihilation. And therefore, the translated word "destruction" does not carry with it those meanings. If one ignores the meaning of the Greek word and just applies the translated word destruction, then one can force it to mean annihilation.
Having an understanding that the word "olethros" translated "destruction in the scripture above, then we can deduce that the "everlasting destruction" does not infer annihilation or extinction, but on-going conscious punishment and that being shut out of God's presence.
"They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might."
The word "destruction" in the verse above is translated from the Greek "Olethros" which is defined as the following:
ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
If you will notice, right in the definition of the word, which is underscored and highlighted in red, states that olethros does not imply extinction or annihilation. And therefore, the translated word "destruction" does not carry with it those meanings. If one ignores the meaning of the Greek word and just applies the translated word destruction, then one can force it to mean annihilation.
Having an understanding that the word "olethros" translated "destruction in the scripture above, then we can deduce that the "everlasting destruction" does not infer annihilation or extinction, but on-going conscious punishment and that being shut out of God's presence.
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly
Apoliea[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"]Definition[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]
Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Short Definition: ruin, doom, destruction
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Funny how you say it means one thing and not another when Strong's Concordance says the opposite. This has been pointed out to you before but as usual you close your eyes to it and instead do the very thing you are always telling other people not to do, which is: you do not take words at face value but instead spiritualize them when there is no need to. http://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm
Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing
Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing (the resultant death being viewed as certain).HELPS Word-studies
622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).
622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.
Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly
Apoliea[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"]Definition[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]
- destroying, utter destruction
Original Word: ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: olethros
Phonetic Spelling: (ol'-eth-ros)
Short Definition: ruin, doom, destruction
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Funny how you say it means one thing and not another when Strong's Concordance says the opposite. This has been pointed out to you before but as usual you close your eyes to it and instead do the very thing you are always telling other people not to do, which is: you do not take words at face value but instead spiritualize them when there is no need to. http://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm
Magenta, you conveniently left his part of the definition out of the word olethros:
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
Do you see the highlighted in red? The word does not imply extinction or annihilation. Why did you leave that part out? Again, you are depending on the word "destruction" without the core meaning, which is defined as complete ruin, complete loss of well being.
The most convincing evidence for the eternality of hell is Matt.25:46, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an “age.” If believers will be in heaven forever, unbelievers will be in hell forever.
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."
Do you see the highlighted in red? The word does not imply extinction or annihilation. Why did you leave that part out? Again, you are depending on the word "destruction" without the core meaning, which is defined as complete ruin, complete loss of well being.
The most convincing evidence for the eternality of hell is Matt.25:46, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” In this verse, the same Greek word is used to refer to the destiny of the wicked and the righteous. If the wicked are only tormented for an “age,” then the righteous will only experience life in heaven for an “age.” If believers will be in heaven forever, unbelievers will be in hell forever.
They give an opinion that contradicts what is said earlier. You ignore it completely. Plus it is used only five times as opposed to- to destroy i. e. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to, ruin being used many more times.
Word Origin - apollumi
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly
Word Origin - apollumi
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly
G
What do you believe happens to satan and the fallen angels in the LoF? Do they cease to exist?
New American Standard Bible
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
New American Standard Bible
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Eternal hell fire is the most loving option God could give for the sinner.
Sound cruel, I know -- let me explain:
Example:
I want to give you ten billion dollars free at no cost. How can I get you to have it for your own? OK, listen to something I want to tell you for just five minutes and the money is yours. If you don't listen to me (and instead go do whatever you want for the next 5 minutes), I am going to have ISIS soldiers torture you for the next ten years day and night! And I mean that too - it will happen! Which would you choose? Easy answer!
5 minutes is comparable to our "life here on earth"
10 years is comparable to "eternity"
Obviously my illustration is crude and insufficient and breaks down - I don't like the "have to listen to me for 5 minutes" part because it sounds like a works salvation!
Sound cruel, I know -- let me explain:
Example:
I want to give you ten billion dollars free at no cost. How can I get you to have it for your own? OK, listen to something I want to tell you for just five minutes and the money is yours. If you don't listen to me (and instead go do whatever you want for the next 5 minutes), I am going to have ISIS soldiers torture you for the next ten years day and night! And I mean that too - it will happen! Which would you choose? Easy answer!
5 minutes is comparable to our "life here on earth"
10 years is comparable to "eternity"
Obviously my illustration is crude and insufficient and breaks down - I don't like the "have to listen to me for 5 minutes" part because it sounds like a works salvation!
And how do you explain the following:
"And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
The scripture above is of course from Rev.14. In order for the smoke of their torment to rise up for ever and ever, the individual would have to be existing in order to be able to experience said torment. The word "basanismos" translated "torment" means to torture. If the individual was annihilated immediately upon hitting the fire, then the smoke of their torment could not ascend up for ever and ever and that because they would be non existent.
"There will be no rest day or night"
This part of the scripture further cements in the meaning of on-going punishment, for unless there is conscious existence, one could not experience having no rest day or night. The word "anapausis" translated "rest" is defined as having no cessation, no intermission from said torment in flame.
"And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
The scripture above is of course from Rev.14. In order for the smoke of their torment to rise up for ever and ever, the individual would have to be existing in order to be able to experience said torment. The word "basanismos" translated "torment" means to torture. If the individual was annihilated immediately upon hitting the fire, then the smoke of their torment could not ascend up for ever and ever and that because they would be non existent.
"There will be no rest day or night"
This part of the scripture further cements in the meaning of on-going punishment, for unless there is conscious existence, one could not experience having no rest day or night. The word "anapausis" translated "rest" is defined as having no cessation, no intermission from said torment in flame.
The eternal punishment is to never rise to new spirit life forever more. The smoke showing nothing is left but has been burned up by the fire of God wrath . Smoke shows their suffering on earth is finished. Just as was Jonas when he was placed on the dry ground used to represent hell (the tribulations, suffering of men who are alive.)
Scripture defines the words used in parables, like hell. They as parables are designed to hide the spiritual understanding from the lost by revealing it to those He is forming Christ in. He does not hear the dead who have no spirit.
Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
The teaching of the Eternal Lake of Fire is Scriptural and correct... Now if people have a problem finding ""logic"" in the reality of the eternal lake of fire then the fault lies with their human mind and it's inability to fathom / understand it.. Humans with limited awareness and understanding cannot trust in their own measure of what is logical and what does not make sense and then declare the Word of God to be ok in one passage of scripture and bad in another passage of scripture..
What people engage in when they do this is declare themselves to be gods sitting in judgement over God declaring their judgements to be superior to Gods.. And declaring God to be guilty or evil or stupid or some other such negative dismissive pontification..
The Bible is clear that those who have rejected the will of God will be cast into the eternal lake of fire where they shall be tormented for ever and ever.. Those who have Faith in God trust that He knows what He is doing and trust that God is justified in doing it and even if they cannot understand why God has done something or will do something they trust that when they enter into eternity with God in His perfect eternal existence they will be given understanding they currently lack...
To followers of God reject any such doctrine that declares the Word of God a lie...
Revelation 20:KJV
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
What people engage in when they do this is declare themselves to be gods sitting in judgement over God declaring their judgements to be superior to Gods.. And declaring God to be guilty or evil or stupid or some other such negative dismissive pontification..
The Bible is clear that those who have rejected the will of God will be cast into the eternal lake of fire where they shall be tormented for ever and ever.. Those who have Faith in God trust that He knows what He is doing and trust that God is justified in doing it and even if they cannot understand why God has done something or will do something they trust that when they enter into eternity with God in His perfect eternal existence they will be given understanding they currently lack...
To followers of God reject any such doctrine that declares the Word of God a lie...
Revelation 20:KJV
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
G
And Another~~
John 6:40
New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:40
New American Standard Bible
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
The answer is simple. The passage is talking about the way the Romans tortured their prisoners to make them confess. The reality is therefore that the prisoners are seen as tortured.,
They 'find no rest day or night' is the exact same wording as found in Rev 4.8. The idea is of a period of unceasing. In the case of those who are being tortured day and night it ends with 'the smoke of their torture' ascending. Their actual torture has ceased..
YOU are simply reading in what is not there.
as regards the meaning of apollumi let us ask the EXPERT, In his book on the immortality of the soul Plato argues continually that people who die are not apollumi for their soul lives on. He clearly saw it is resulting in ceasing to exist.
They 'find no rest day or night' is the exact same wording as found in Rev 4.8. The idea is of a period of unceasing. In the case of those who are being tortured day and night it ends with 'the smoke of their torture' ascending. Their actual torture has ceased..
YOU are simply reading in what is not there.
as regards the meaning of apollumi let us ask the EXPERT, In his book on the immortality of the soul Plato argues continually that people who die are not apollumi for their soul lives on. He clearly saw it is resulting in ceasing to exist.
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