Is there more than one God

[forerunner]

Try to focus on the scripturally accurate information being presented. It's a blessing and the information goes far beyond just showing Jesus as God. It shows Jesus as the third person in the Trinity exactly what scripture teaches. God loves you and wants you to come into the fullness of His truth. I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time with it. Peace.

Scripture does not teach the lie you promote, and I will never accept anything that cannot be shown with scripture.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

This should explain it for ya, but I doubt you'll get it.
Well, it's nice of you to bless us dummies with your profound knowledge.

God is one and has always been one. Jesus is the man God became. Jesus did not exist before incarnation as God the Son. In His pre-incarnate state, He existed as the Father, God Himself. Now the two of them are in heaven together, God the Father and the man he became, the Son of God, Jesus Christ. The problem is that when I say the Father became a man people think it means I believe he stopped being an eternal Spirit after incarnation and that heaven was empty. This is not what I believe. God the Father continued to exist as a transcendent, unlimited Spirit, while also becoming a man. The Father did not become confined to a human existence. It is not as though the omnipresent Spirit of God transformed Himself into a man, to the exclusion of His existence as the Holy Spirit.

When God assumed a human existence with a complete human mind, psyche, will, and emotion etc. He was distinct from the Father while he continued to exist as the Father in heaven. As a genuine human being, Jesus was and is distinct from the Father. This is because of His humanity not because he is the second person of the Trinity. While I confess that the deity of the Son did pre-exist incarnation, I do not see that deity as the second person of the Trinity, known as " God the Son ", and separate from the Father or Holy Spirit, but rather as the uni-personal God of the old testament. Yahweh, the Father, the Great I Am.

Concerning the Holy Spirit, I believe He is the Spirit of God the Father and not a separate person of the Trinity, the third person known as " God the Holy Spirit. " The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, He is the Spirit of the Father, He is the Spirit of Christ. God is a Spirit, the Holy Spirit. There is one God not three, nor are there three persons that create one God. He is one uni-personal God that He himself became flesh. There is no such person as God the son nor God the Holy Spirit but only God the Father, the son of God and the Spirit of God.

Yet Jesus is the "I am". By the way, you said you agreed with the United Pentecostals on this subject. I don't think that is correct.
Again, you divide deity, you have a mutable God, and you ignore obvious references to the spirit as a separate individual from the Son and the Father.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Scripture does not teach the lie you promote, and I will never accept anything that cannot be shown with scripture.

Permit me to show you scriptures

The Bible teaches that Jesus is God (John 1:1) and that He knows all things (John 224; Col. 2:2-3). On the other hand, He "grew in wisdom" (Luke 2:52) and sometimes did not seem to know certain things (cf. John 11:34). Indeed, He denied knowing the time of His own second coming here and in Mark 13:32, saying, "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

We must distinguish between what Jesus knew as God (everything) and what He knew as man (not everything). As God, Jesus was omniscient (all-knowing), but as man He was limited in His knowledge. This passage is not a denial of the deity of Christ; rather, it is in harmony with the distinction between the two natures of Christ, one divine and one human. A reciprocity of personal knowledge between God the Father and God the Son is affirmed in scripture.

This teaching is taught by every mainstream conservative Christian seminary I've ever interacted with. CARM, a mainstream Christian apologetic ministry, elaborates on it as follows:

"As a man, Jesus walked and talked. As God He was worshipped (Matt. 14:33; 28:9; Heb. 1:6), prayed to (Zech. 13:9; 1 Cor. 1:2), etc. This is called the Hypostatic Union.

During His earthly ministry He moved in the power of the Holy Spirit and did His miracles by the Holy Spirit and not by His own divine power. This is because He was made for a little while lower than the angels (Heb. 2:9) and had emptied Himself and taken on the form of a man (Phil. 2:7).​

This would explain why in Matt. 12:22-32, when the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of the devil, Jesus said that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would never be forgiven? Why? Because Jesus, as a man who was ministering completely as a man under the Law (Gal. 4:4-5), did His miracles by the power of the Holy Spirit.

This demonstrates that Christ was completely human and dependent upon God and that He was cooperating with the limitations of being human. That is why He said He didn't know the day or hour of His return.

However, we see that after the resurrection of Christ it is said of Him that He knows all things (John 21:17) and that He is omnipresent (Matt. 28:20). Therefore, after His resurrection and glorification, the Lord Jesus did know all things."

It's clear, systematic, and logical just like mainstream conservative Christian theology should be.

Isn't sound doctrine good. It's good to read it and reread it and then read it again. Praise the Lord for this proper understanding. God bless.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Yet Jesus is the "I am". By the way, you said you agreed with the United Pentecostals on this subject. I don't think that is correct.
Again, you divide deity, you have a mutable God, and you ignore obvious references to the spirit as a separate individual from the Son and the Father.

The immutability of God is such an important concept. You were right to bring it up for the purposes of this discussion. Here's a good article I found at Bible.Org on the immutability of God:


http://bible.org/seriespage/immutability-god

 

[Saint]

You are the very last person on this forum I would pay any attention to.

hey, that's a great concept, we should ignore all of the people who disagree with us, that way we'll never be proven wrong. too bad the article he asked you to look at wasn't written by him. andtoo bad he's using scripture that wasn't written by him.

 

[forerunner]

hey, that's a great concept, we should ignore all of the people who disagree with us, that way we'll never be proven wrong. too bad the article he asked you to look at wasn't written by him. andtoo bad he's using scripture that wasn't written by him.

I do not ignore everyone that disagrees with me. I do not ignore you. I ignore those that ignore others, and have terrible attitudes.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Good afternoon everyone. I choose not to argue ad hominem but to focus on sound doctrine like that currently taught at conservative Christian seminaries and apply it to questions on the forum. God bless you.

 

[Saint]

I do not ignore everyone that disagrees with me. I do not ignore you. I ignore those that ignore others, and have terrible attitudes.

I see. that makes sence. i guess if you 2 can't come to a resolution, then you should both stop going back and forth on this

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

First, let me tell you that what I’m about to proclaim is going to make you really, really upset, or it is going to be really, really insightful.

In a previous post you said, ‘You can refute modalism all you want I am not a modalist, and that is not what Ricke was teaching.’ I contend that this is precisely what is being taught by you, and Ricke. Sequential modalism may differ than the view that Oneness Pentecostals hold true to, but regardless, you agree that God is one in Person, with three distinct personalities, thus you are a modalist. Of course, there are different forms of modalism, such as, Patripassianism, which Oneness Pentecostals deny, but all Oneness groups (whether you be a Oneness Pentecostal, or Patripassianist) are considered modalists. Modalism is simply the belief that God is one in Person. David Bernard, a Oneness advocate, even said, "Modalism is the same as the modern doctrine of Oneness." (the Oneness of God p.318 ).

I find it almost fascinating that some Jehovah Witnesses, as well as some Mormons, but not always, make the false accusation that Trinitarian’s actually adhere to Oneness theology, that is, most often, believe that we think Jesus is the Father, and the Holy Spirit is the Son, and every other combination of the sort. Then it comes to Oneness proponents, and they accuse the Trinitarian of tri-theism, which is actually a Mormon view of God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all separate, and individual Gods, no unity), but it is even evident, that Mormons are actually more polytheistic, in their belief that they too can achieve a status equivalent to God, and that they too could rule over planet(s). And then we have the Trinitarian caught in the center of the cross hairs of fire, waving that big red flag, saying, ‘No, no, no, and no… that’s not what we believe, you’ve got it all wrong!’ The Jehovah Witnesses, the Mormons, and the Oneness folks don’t quite get their accusations right at all. So here I am, holding that big red flag. Let me share with you what a Trinitarian is, and what a Trinitarian is not.

• A Trinitarian is totally Monotheistic, that is, the belief in One God (please note the difference between One Being, and One Person). Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 45:18, James 2:19
  
  
• A Trinitarian believes that the Scripture declares that the Father is 100% God (Galatians 1:1, Romans 1:7, 1 Corinthians 1:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 1:2; 3), that the Son is 100% God (Isaiah 48:11-16, Hebrews 1:8-12, John 1:1-14, Colossians 1:13-17, Revelation 22:12-16), and that the Holy Spirit is 100% God (Acts 5:1-5, Job 33:4, Psalms 139:7-8, Hebrews 9:14, Acts 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 21:11, 1 Timothy 4:1, Hebrews 3:7)

• A Trinitarian believes that the Father is Eternal, that the Word (Christ before His manifestation) is Eternal, and that the Spirit is Eternal. That is, Christ as the Eternal Word pre-existed with the Father, as well as the Holy Spirit.

• A Trinitarian believes that God exists in three Persons revealed to us as the Father, Son, and Spirit, and that they are One in Being and in purpose, that is, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit make up a tri-unity (Trinity). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit exist in unity in the Godhead.

• A Trinitarian does not believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate, or distinct Beings (not to be confused with Persons).

• The Doctrine of the Trinity teaches that there is One Being, that is God. Not that there’s three Being that are One Being. Nor does it teach that there is One Person that is three Persons. The Trinity is One Being that is God, three Persons that fully share that Divine Being.

(Continued...)

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Nice. Have some positive rep GraceBeUntoYou .

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

(Continuation...)

The argumentation you set forth is not what is considered exegesis, that is, drawing an interpretation from the text. Rather, you use eisegesis-- introducing ones own ideas, reading it into the text.

You give an explanation of what you believe, and you try to make the text fit around your ideas, but you haven’t actually exegeted any passages that confirms anything that you’ve said. Never does the Scripture identify the Father as the Son, the Son as the Father, or the Holy Spirit as the Son. Passages such as John 10:30 do not identify the Father as the Son, or the Son as the Father, or teach that they are the same Person, rather, the same in Being. In short, you confess that as a human, Jesus is distinct, but prior to His manifestation in the flesh, He existed as the Father (the key difference between Patripassianist modalism, and Oneness Pentecostal modalism). And because that is the root of your argument, that is the root in which I must rebut.

Isaiah 48:12-16
‘Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last. Surely My hand founded the earth, And My right hand spread out the heavens; When I call to them, they stand together. Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans. I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and He will make his ways successful. Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.’ – Isaiah 48:12-16

To make this straight forward, follow the personal pronouns in the bold. Notice the difference in language used, ‘I,’ ‘Me,’ ‘Him,’ ‘He.’ The speaker has claimed that He Himself is the first, and the last, and has claimed ownership over all creation. But yet, this same Person speaks of a ‘He,’ and a ‘Him,’ that is, someone other than the speaker. Notice, the Person speaking did not say, ‘I, even I, have spoken; indeed I have called him, I have brought him, and I will make his ways successful.’ Rather, He says, ‘…and He will make his ways successful.’ This very same Person says, ‘…the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit.’ May I submit to you, that the One speaking here is the pre-incarnate Lord Jesus Christ, the Eternal Word, the Alpha and the Omega, and He is referring to being sent by the Father.

To reaffirm that this is indeed Christ speaking, refer to Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 22:14-16 where Christ claims to be the first, and the last. Also, see Hebrews 1:8-12, which is the Father’s proclamation of the Son, ‘…YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS… .’ The ‘He,’ ‘Him,’ and ‘Lord GOD’ that is made mention here in Isaiah 48 is clearly in reference to the Father, whom has sent the ‘Me,’ ‘the first and the last,’ that is, Christ.

May I suggest, that if Jesus is the Father, He wouldn’t speak of another as ‘He,’ and ‘Him,’ and ‘Lord GOD.’ If Jesus was the Father before His pre-incarnation, He would have said something on the lines of, ‘…From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there And now I, the first and the last, am coming in the flesh.’

John 1:1-2, 18
‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.’ – John 1:1-2 (NASB)

Key term to take note of here is ‘pros,’ otherwise, ‘with.’ The term ‘pros’ is a preposition (Ex: The pen is on the floor; The cat is under the bed; My shoes are beside the couch) which means, ‘toward,’ ‘together,’ ‘near,’ ‘with,’ that is, ‘face-to-face’ with another. A couple examples from Scripture include:

Mark 2:2, ‘And many were gathered together [pros], so that there was no longer room, not even near the door; and He was speaking the word to them.’

Luke 6:11, But they themselves were filled with rage, and discussed together [pros] what they might do to Jesus.
​

It is evident that what we have in John 1:1-2 is an interpersonal relationship between the Word and God. The phrase, ‘…kai ho logos en pros ton theon,’ that is, ‘…and the Word was with God,’ demonstrates the distinct personage of the pre-existent Word. This is also demonstrated in John 17:5, where Christ said, ‘Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.’

‘No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.’ – John 1:18 (ESV)

I contest that John 1:18 can not be understood outside the lens of the Doctrine of the Trinity. According to the Old Testament, clearly, men have seen God:

Genesis 32:24-30, “Then Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until daybreak. When he saw that he had not prevailed against him, he touched the socket of his thigh; so the socket of Jacob's thigh was dislocated while he wrestled with him. Then he said, ‘Let me go, for the dawn is breaking.’ But he said, ‘I will not let you go unless you bless me.’ So he said to him, ‘What is your name?’ And he said, ‘Jacob.’ He said, ‘Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.’ Then Jacob asked him and said, ‘Please tell me your name.’ But he said, ‘Why is it that you ask my name?’ And he blessed him there. So Jacob named the place Peniel, for he said, ‘I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.’”

Joshua 5:13-15, “Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, ‘Are you for us or for our adversaries?’ He said, ‘No; rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the LORD.’ And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, ‘What has my lord to say to his servant?’ The captain of the LORD'S host said to Joshua, ‘Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.’ And Joshua did so.”

Job 42:5, “Then Job answered the LORD and said, ‘I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge? Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Hear, now, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me. I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You;”
​

And yet, no man has ever seen the Father, for the Scriptures say, ‘Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father’ (John 6:46), and ‘And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form’ (John 5:37).

Amos 4, Genesis 18 & 19, and John 8 – The Consistency
I’ll be first to say that I don’t take the most common Trinitarian approach to Genesis 18, which usually teaches that the three men that appeared before Abraham as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

In Genesis 18, you’ll recall that ‘Ieue,’ that is the Hebrew term used for ‘Yahweh’ aka ‘LORD’ in most of our Bible translations, appeared before Abraham (v. 1). Since we can conclude that no one has seen the Father, might I suggest that since Jesus is a distinct Person from the Father, it was the pre-incarnate Christ that had appeared before Abraham, with two angels. It was the pre-incarnate Christ that Abraham pleaded with, and it was the pre-incarnate Christ, the Eternal Word that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Cross reference Genesis 18, with what Christ said in John 8:56-58, ‘Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad. So the Jews said to Him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.’”

With that being said, Genesis 19 takes into account the grand destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and in v. 24-25 it declares, ‘Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven, and He overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.’ That is, two Persons that are named Yahweh, one on earth, which appeared before Abraham, and the other in Heaven. Likewise, Amos 4:10-11 also declares,

“‘I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me,’ declares the LORD. ‘I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze; Yet you have not returned to Me,’ declares the LORD.”

Revelation 5:1-7
“I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, ‘Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?’ And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; and one of the elders said to me, ‘Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.’ And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.”

Revelation 5:1-7 portrays the Father sitting on the throne with a sealed book, along with another that is standing in the midst of the elders, the Lamb, whom takes the book out of the hands of the One sitting on the throne – a clear distinction.

Putting the Finish Over the Paint – The Conclusion
Since there is clear distinction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, there is only one way that is expressed in the Scripture that can present God as One, and I contend that the Scripture clearly portrays through unity.

Paul wrote in the book of Galatians that, ‘There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus’ (Galatians 3:28). That is, that the Church, the Body of Christ are in unity, unified together as one Body. Not literal ‘one body,’ but a unified Body. Jesus compared the unity between the Church as to the unity with He and His Father when He said,

John 17: 9-11, ‘I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are.’ John 17 goes onto say in verses 22 and 23, ‘The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.’
​

Christ prayed for His Sheep, He said, ‘…may they be one even as We are (v. 11)… that they may be one, just as We are one (v. 22)… that they may be perfected in unity (v. 23)… .’ That is what the Scripture clearly says, and clearly hints at throughout (refer to Deuteronomy 6:4, Genesis 2:24, John 10:30, Galatians 3:28, and John 17:9-11, 22-23).

‘Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.’ – John 17:5