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Mitspa
Guest
If sin looks attractive to you? Then your in the flesh... If knowing the grace of God seems to sound like you can sin as you like? Your In the flesh.
Is This a Hyper-Grace Doctrine of Men FORUM?
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Oh, it does matter just not for eternal reasons. It hurts the person in the now and for that very reason the Holy Spirit is grieved. Sin has many natural consequences.
I ask, who are those that overcome the world? Those that believe in Jesus Christ. Scripture explains that clearly as those who overcome the world are those that believe in God, the Son.
I say it doesn't matter from an eternal perspective, because the day you overcome gluttony (for example) is not the day you become saved. That's my point. The day you learn to control your appetite in your life and diet is not the day the Lord grants you salvation. It may be a lifelong struggle rooted in deep hurts. His grace is sufficient. That is the point, that although we may continue to struggle with a particular sin, the day we overcome it wasnt the day we became saved. That is a self-righteous gospel, and not God's Good News.
Grace is not a license to sin.....
[video=youtube;VP4S8UxUM0I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP4S8UxUM0I[/video]
[video=youtube;VP4S8UxUM0I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP4S8UxUM0I[/video]
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KennethC
Guest
See there is the problem though is that big word in bold above !!!
There are those who believe they are "REAL" believers in Christ, but are still walking around in willful habitual sin.
These are the ones who Jesus will say to them at judgment, "I never knew you."
That is why there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth at judgment, because there will be a number of people who thought they were saved but will find out they are not !!!
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KennethC
Guest
Yes it does matter for eternal life, what is it about "will not inherit the promise" that you don't understand ???
The promise mentioned there is of eternal life, it is not talking about rewards !!!
Notice that in Matt 7:19-23..Jesus said "I never knew you "...these people were not believers.....everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....
John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Jesus did the "will of God"...and delivered us from this present evil world
Galatians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.
Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.
1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
The good works we do are from "being in Christ"..being lead by the Holy Spirit. Notice God has prepared them for us. we walk them out as we life our lives dependent on Him.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Jesus did the "will of God"...and delivered us from this present evil world
Galatians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.
Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.
1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
The good works we do are from "being in Christ"..being lead by the Holy Spirit. Notice God has prepared them for us. we walk them out as we life our lives dependent on Him.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
You see, you're missing the point. You're making sanctification a necessity in order to be saved but that is incorrect. Sanctification does follow conversion, but isn't always experienced to the degree of overcoming a particular sin. The thief on the cross being a prime example, he didn't get much sanctification for his stealing after he believed in Jesus. He never went through some repentance of not stealing anymore, he just simply believed Jesus. Simply. It is the simplicity of the Gospel.
Again, this is the mistake that is being inferred into what grace preachers are saying. NO ONE is endorsing, promoting, or excusing sin. They declare victory over it in Christ. However, the emphasis that His grace is sufficient is true, for there is no sin within man that is not cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. He took care of all sin, for all time. One sacrifice, perfecting forever those that are being sanctified (see, sanctification isn't being neglected).
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KennethC
Guest
Again with your false assertions that those of Matthew 7 were not believers............
This is why your doctrine is so dangerous because it has to change the context and override the full passage to make a false understanding.
Jesus said: "If you deny me before men, I will deny you before the Father."
These people in Matthew 7 were believers in the sense that they pleaded with Him that they did the things He said we would do.
This has been twisted to say they trusted in their works instead of Christ, that is false understanding and the only way to come away with this is to force something not said into the passage.
Jesus did not say, I never knew you, depart from Me because you trusted in your works or because you were unbelievers.
No, Jesus said this to them because they continued to practice lawlessness (Which means they continued to live deliberate sinful lifestyles on top of trying to serve Him.)
Serving two masters is the context here, and the outcome for those who try to serve two masters is not eternal life through Christ !!!
I agree very much with this. The born again regenerate believer understands grace and exactly what this means. The thing that concerns me about it is when the unbeliever hears this, it can be confusing. I sat in church for 5 years listening to preachers and never knew God at all. I was still watching porn, smoking weed, not being the father and husband I should, and felt secured in my "Christianity". When I only heard "we still sin, we can sin and it's OK, God still loves us no matter what, as long as we confess Jesus with our mouth and believe we're saved, we are". I never even considered I wasn't really saved, and I WASN'T. I do not see a huge problem with much of what as said for the truly regenerated believer, but for the people like I was, the ones that "liked the IDEA of Jesus, but have real world bills to pay", I think it is dangerously lacking a BIG half of the truth. It basically condemns anyone talking about the result of true conversion and the change the Holy Spirit fuels in us and says "we are sinners, but still saved not matter what". It would have sent me strait to hell saying "Lord,Lord", if I would have died in the motorcycle wreak that took my arm. While I agree it's really not "bad" by any means, and the believer will get it, it's misleading for the seeker in my opinion. That is my biggest problem with it, it doesn't stress the change in the truly saved man at all, and strait up ignores and denies it in some cases.
If we couldn't become defiled, there would be no admonition to pursue holiness, without which no one will be admitted into GOD's presence.
Pursue peace with everyone, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord. Hebrews 12:14
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KennethC
Guest
There you go using a faulty example to one who lives their life out for Christ, you can not use a death bed confession to compare to one who lives a long or length of time of their life for Christ.
It does not fit and Paul even warns about using such examples to apply where they don't belong !!!
I will tell you as I did another as for some reason there is a teaching going around these things follow, or come after salvation.
That is false teaching that is not taught in the bible, as the Word of God says these things "ACCOMPANY" salvation.
Accompany means they are at the same time working hand and hand together, not one comes after the other !!!
For instance if I ask you to accompany me to lunch, that means we both go to eat lunch together, it does not mean I go to lunch and then you follow later and eat lunch at the same place.
The one main problem I have with Grace or Hyper-grace teachers that I have seen a lot, is you all act as if eternal consequences don't exist when the do !!!
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Phil 3:12-14
No man can answer such a question, because we stand before the King. It has never been about a check list but about love and a walk. I am walking better than I did but not as well as I will be. Most issues I know of I walk well in but still many more to experience.
The problem is it is probably a sin to be presumptious or to even suggest I have arrived or how far I am along a path.
But the goal is certain and the walk is plain, that is all I can say about such a question.
I often wondered why those who confess they sin all the time but are still saved no matter what, say they need not to repent or ask forgiveness at all because all they have to is look at the finished work of Christ and "imagine" themselves as holy and righteous.
As I told you long ago, if that is the case, it would be better for all us to accept the Lord and then die immediately upon acceptance if there is no security in Him. If a death bed confession is more secure in his faith than a man living his life for the Lord, we would all be smart to put ourselves in danger's way that we may be with the Lord quickly. That is the extreme that would need to be taken to ensure heaven.
Oh, I hear you already. "That denies the transforming power of the Holy Spirit." Yes, I know it is such carnal thinking. The thing is, both those knocking at deaths door and those living in Christ are as secure as the other because both are dependent upon His grace which is found in His sacrifice. Only that we would place faith in Him and we have.
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Mitspa
Guest
Holiness is not through the law (flesh)...its through the Spirit ... and the defilement is of the temple ..or the body through fornication ...its not a defilement of the spirit.
1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
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sydlit
Guest
A woman taken in the 'very act' of adultery was brought to Jesus.
No mention of confession or repentence before Jesus said to her,
'Neither do I condemn thee...'
Salvation, the gift of God's grace BY the God of all grace
standing there in the flesh. (Amazing!)
He THEN said to her, 'Go, and sin no more'.
Does anyone think she never sinned again the rest of her life?
Do you think Jesus cast her out,
or changed His mind about not condemning her
had she sinned again?
Is salvation a once for all forever gift of God's grace,
never to be taken away? It's either yes or no.
If yes, then praise the Lord,
if no, then what must we do to be saved?
No mention of confession or repentence before Jesus said to her,
'Neither do I condemn thee...'
Salvation, the gift of God's grace BY the God of all grace
standing there in the flesh. (Amazing!)
He THEN said to her, 'Go, and sin no more'.
Does anyone think she never sinned again the rest of her life?
Do you think Jesus cast her out,
or changed His mind about not condemning her
had she sinned again?
Is salvation a once for all forever gift of God's grace,
never to be taken away? It's either yes or no.
If yes, then praise the Lord,
if no, then what must we do to be saved?
So are you saying that "go and sin no more", really meant "go and sin as much as you want, it doesn't matter you're golden regardless?" I'm not following your point here, do you think she went off and commented adultery again all she wanted and didn't try to live better in complete gratitude?
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KennethC
Guest
As I told you long ago, if that is the case, it would be better for all us to accept the Lord and then die immediately upon acceptance if there is no security in Him. If a death bed confession is more secure in his faith than a man living his life for the Lord, we would all be smart to put ourselves in danger's way that we may be with the Lord quickly. That is the extreme that would need to be taken to ensure heaven.
Oh, I hear you already. "That denies the transforming power of the Holy Spirit." Yes, I know it is such carnal thinking. The thing is, both those knocking at deaths door and those living in Christ are as secure as the other because both are dependent upon His grace which is found in His sacrifice. Only that we would place faith in Him and we have.
That again why it shows you have a misunderstanding because you want to place a death bed confession in the same light as one who comes to Christ and lives the next 20, 30, or even 50+ years for Christ.
You can not do that because if the person on the death bed would have lived instead, then their stance would be no different then the others. Also the death bed confession is an example of His mercy !!!
A person who continues to live can still choose to be obedient or not to His ways, and the word of God clearly shows that those who are continuously disobedient will be placed with the unbelievers.
I know you will bring up the Apostle Peter's disobedience, but again by doing so you would be in the wrong, because Apostle Peter's disobedience was not one of a continuous nature. He is more of the example of when one stumbles and needs to be corrected !!!
Eternal security only exists when one abides in Christ, outside of Christ (Faith in Him) there is no security !!!
Those who continue to live deliberate habitual sinful lives or those that return to this way of life are not or no longer abiding in Christ. Therefore they no longer have that security !!!
Again I will finish off that the bible speaks on earthly as well as eternal consequences, they are not all earthly as you think they are !!!
The fact of the matter is that the gift of no condemnation came prior to the victory over sin. Most would say to stop sinning so that you may not be condemned but Jesus' answer is a paradox to people. He first doesn't condemn people and then tells them to sin no more. It seems there is a secret there to victory over sin, being in His grace and not being condemned.
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sydlit
Guest
My question first, so far it hasn't been answered. Does anyone think she never sinned again?