Is This a Hyper-Grace Doctrine of Men FORUM?
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Grace of the Lord is a wonderful thing.
The problem is if you have a group who are happy to lie, distort, slander, boast, threaten without any moral balance in their hearts, they have already left the gospel far behind.
If someone lies, what normally happens. They say sorry, correct the error and move on.
But for these people there is no moral position or consistency.
Where is the problem? Joseph Prince is a WOF, prosperity and hyper-grace preacher.
They have no theology of suffering, discipline or rebuke. Listen to David,
For they persecute those you wound, and talk about the pain of those you hurt.
Psalm 69:26
David is saying that which the Lord brings, those around just make worse.
Difficulty, work, effort are not bad things but things we bring to victory.
Paul goes on to talk about Jesus and identification with Jesus in his suffering.
Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;
Rom 5:3
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
Col 1:24
The gospel is about love above circumstance, it is about truth and reality above selfish gain.
So which spirit talks of the easy path, the way with no morals or boundaries? It is not Jesus.
The problem is if you have a group who are happy to lie, distort, slander, boast, threaten without any moral balance in their hearts, they have already left the gospel far behind.
If someone lies, what normally happens. They say sorry, correct the error and move on.
But for these people there is no moral position or consistency.
Where is the problem? Joseph Prince is a WOF, prosperity and hyper-grace preacher.
They have no theology of suffering, discipline or rebuke. Listen to David,
For they persecute those you wound, and talk about the pain of those you hurt.
Psalm 69:26
David is saying that which the Lord brings, those around just make worse.
Difficulty, work, effort are not bad things but things we bring to victory.
Paul goes on to talk about Jesus and identification with Jesus in his suffering.
Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;
Rom 5:3
Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
Col 1:24
The gospel is about love above circumstance, it is about truth and reality above selfish gain.
So which spirit talks of the easy path, the way with no morals or boundaries? It is not Jesus.
K
KennethC
Guest
When we are in Christ (abiding in Him) those good deeds are not done by themselves, they are His righteousness being done through us.
Yet this does not answer the question posed to you, that Acts 15 is discussing on rather Gentiles are to keep the Law of Moses (Mosaic law) or not !!! I was called to be in error for saying that, and you liked the post that said that.
Therefore that is agreeing with a lie !!!
K
KennethC
Guest
You see though you continue to say things that none of us are saying either, as none of us are saying you have to try, maintain, or attain salvation by works.
This faulty straw-man was used in the past from Grace only preachers that could not win debates when it came to speaking on consequences for sinful actions. In the past they tried to change every scripture about consequences into only being earthly physical in the flesh consequences, and that same bad teaching has carried over to today.
Those of you from the Grace only crowd are saying the exact same thing as us even though you don't think so, and the only difference arises what happens to those who continue or return to a life of willful deliberate sinning. That in both cases is a rejection of Christ and God's grace !!!
Most of the time we here Grace only (hyper-grace) say one of three things; not really saved, will still go to heaven, and/or can't happen.
The not really saved is debatable because of the "Sower and the Seed" parable that speaks of some who immediately accept the Word and walk in it for awhile, but then fall away because of troubles in life !!!
The will still go to heaven should not even be debated because there is enough scriptures saying such, fall back to perdition, perish, return to condemnation, become accursed, and become illegitimate and not sons !!!
As for the can't happen well there is enough teachings in the NT about falling away and apostasy to show it can !!!
Luke 13:24 and Hebrews 4:11 are parallel verses and both of them say strive (make every effort) to enter in through the narrow gate (His rest) which is to receive eternal life.
Now day doctrines of man tell you there is nothing we do, but that is not what the Lord said !!!
Hebrews 4:2-3
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
People seem to be confused about what it takes to come to Christ and what happens after.
Grace or "hyper" Grace is solely talking to people who have come to Christ. A person can't know it, can't understand it if they haven't experienced it for themselves.
You can't go back to your work at the law, you can't separate the law into parts and follow your favorite parts, you can't work at commands, after you come to Christ. You already know that all your work didn't amount to any progress. Only the Work of the Lord Jesus Christ gave you progress. How? Because you trusted and abided in Him. You received by Grace through Faith.
That is the whole "theology" of "hyper" Grace. Instead of working we receive by Grace through Faith. By abiding and trusting in Christ, our Saviour.
If we want to discuss all the work required to actually come to Christ, then lets talk Law, lets talk legalism, lets talk about all our self-effort. But if we want to talk about Christianity we have only one focus, the Lord Jesus Christ and His Work.
A Christians walk is not one of falling away from Christ and coming back. A Christians walk is one of attempting to rest in the finished work of Christ at all times. When, or if, a person fails and falls into the TRAP of self-effort, they must repent and come back to their place of complete rest in the finished work of Christ.
Psalm 46... esp v 10.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
People seem to be confused about what it takes to come to Christ and what happens after.
Grace or "hyper" Grace is solely talking to people who have come to Christ. A person can't know it, can't understand it if they haven't experienced it for themselves.
You can't go back to your work at the law, you can't separate the law into parts and follow your favorite parts, you can't work at commands, after you come to Christ. You already know that all your work didn't amount to any progress. Only the Work of the Lord Jesus Christ gave you progress. How? Because you trusted and abided in Him. You received by Grace through Faith.
That is the whole "theology" of "hyper" Grace. Instead of working we receive by Grace through Faith. By abiding and trusting in Christ, our Saviour.
If we want to discuss all the work required to actually come to Christ, then lets talk Law, lets talk legalism, lets talk about all our self-effort. But if we want to talk about Christianity we have only one focus, the Lord Jesus Christ and His Work.
A Christians walk is not one of falling away from Christ and coming back. A Christians walk is one of attempting to rest in the finished work of Christ at all times. When, or if, a person fails and falls into the TRAP of self-effort, they must repent and come back to their place of complete rest in the finished work of Christ.
Psalm 46... esp v 10.
K
KennethC
Guest
What are you trying to say ???
Verse 1 starts off talking about physical circumcision and that unless people are circumcised they can not be saved.
Verse 2 the Apostles Paul and Barnabas went to Jerusalem to discuss this matter with the other Apostles and elders of the Church.
Verse 5 some of the Pharisees that are now believers in Christ spoke up because they thought Gentile believers had to be circumcised and not just that, but also to keep the whole Mosaic law (Law of Moses).
Verses 6-11 the Apostle Peter spoke out saying that Gentiles should not have to bear that yoke of keeping the whole Mosaic law that none of them (Jews) could keep.
Verses 20-29 they plus the Holy Spirit (15:28) agreed upon what should be kept from the Law of Moses........
Well said Grandpa...that IS the whole gospel of the grace of Christ...with all this understanding ...now we "move on" to walk out what Christ has already done for us.
Romans 1:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
We live by faith in Him...Faith in the finished work of our Lord. His work is done!. Rest in Him and in His finished work for us and walk out the wonderful life He has for you with Him!
Romans 1:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
We live by faith in Him...Faith in the finished work of our Lord. His work is done!. Rest in Him and in His finished work for us and walk out the wonderful life He has for you with Him!
K
KennethC
Guest
You see though nobody is debating what you said here accept the whole self-effort part, because in Christ there is no such thing as self-effort.
The good deeds we do we do them in Christ, and thus the Word of God says God is not unjust to forget our works and labor of love for Him, and that we will receive rewards for that faithful servitude !!!
We don't do those works with the mindset of "what do we get in return", we do them because we Love Him, because He first Loved us by dying for our sins.
Doing as He commanded we would do is a sign of love and respect for what He has done for us !!!
Verses 20-29 was an appeasement to the Jews who believed.
Much like when you or other legalists make the weird statement, "so its ok to murder now?" under grace. No, its not ok to murder. Its not ok to lust. Its not ok to sin.
But the yoke of working at any aspect of the law is more than we or our fathers before us could handle.
Our only solution is to come to Christ and receive rest from our work.
You state God's word so calmly and plainly. I kind of envy that peaceful attitude. I'm not there yet.
You are partially correct Kenneth, like usual.
We strive to enter into His Rest.
That is the only self-effort we, as Christians, benefit from.
The rest of our 'works' are mostly convincing other Christians who claim faith in Christ that there is a walk beyond legalism, beyond fear, beyond self-effort. In other words, un-veiling Christ.
If you are focused on sin and self-effort and law you are mostly just vain jangling, knowing not what you say or affirm.
It doesn't take any work on our part to come to Christ, but it does take a lot of work to walk, and therefore abide, in Christ. Christ is doing things, and we are to follow him.
It's not an issue of doing things to remain worthy (law), but doing what the spirit tells us to do so that we may walk in Christ and abide in him.
Resting in Christ's finished work is what gives us the strength to do his righteousness.
New.modern.hyper grace falls away from this by proclaiming that any kind of law or commandment is legalism; that any kind of requirement to do anything is old covenant religion. Even though new covenant writings are filled with things for us to do so that we may live holy, blameless lives. All of this simply gets brushed aside by the lawless spirit of hyper grace.
Christ is sitting on a throne in heaven, but he is very active on this earth through his people.
Therefore, to the one who knows to do good and does not do [it], to him it is sin. James 4:17
I really do hate it when I see the truth of Gods Word twisted to mean something it doesn't mean.
But I suppose we all do it to some degree, based on our own limited understanding. So I try to take that into account.
Thanks Willie-T...
K
KennethC
Guest
Well that is not true because the way you put it, anything done that Jesus commanded us to do is not considered self effort. It is considered doing His righteousness !!!
Would you have known to repent of your sins if Jesus would never have said it ???
Would you have known to get baptized, and be born again if Jesus hadn't commanded it ???
Would you have known to true way to walk in love if Jesus had not shown how ???
The answer to each question should be no, because without the Lord's teachings and His Holy Spirit we would not know what to do to be under God's grace. Therefore what He taught and commanded us to do, when we do it it is His righteousness we are walking in, not our own self-effort !!!
Self-effort means you completely rely on self on what to do, going by what Jesus said is not relying on self !!!
I really like you HRFTD. Sincerely. I think we would really get along quite well.
But I respectfully think you have your understanding of coming to Christ and resting in His Work at a complete 180 degrees.
It took a tremendous amount of work and humility and hardship for me to come to Christ. 5 yrs of complete focus on the Lord and His Word with very little distraction. Even though my whole life was falling apart. Trying to be completely perfect in all things.
Coming to Christ took this heavy burden away. Pretty much all of it.
Now my work of "righteousness" in the Lord is simply trying to show others what I have learned and experienced. Which is come to the Lord Jesus Christ and He will give you Rest. He is the source of ALL of our blessing.
Can I get an Amen? lol
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Then I am confused. God lied when he said come to him and he will give us rest.
"Alot of work" as you put it does not equal rest.
But you just said it is a alot of work. now your saying it is rest? I am confused..
No, this is not true
Hyper grace teaches one can rest in Christ, Let God do the work of changing us, as we get out of the way.
I believe and I have experienced it, If you think doing Gods will is work. Your still trying to do it yourself. Those getting out of Gods way to let hi work in you. do not see it as work, as paul said, they see it as a momentary light affliction..
Thats rest, When you can consider suffering, pain, striving to Do Gods will in any circumstance, and continually giving God the glory, a momentary light affliction.
All of Christs commands, including the 10 Commands, are designed to bring you (and everyone else) to Him.
When you do come to Him, He gives you Rest from your work at His Commands.
This Rest is in the form of the Holy Spirit, your New Heart and your New Faith in Him Alone.
None of us repents from our own sin. The bible shows this is an impossibility. Only the Light can expel the darkness. Your fake light of works doesn't cut it.
K
KennethC
Guest
AMEN !!!
You say some good things some of the time and just like all of us you still have issues to work on, anybody who says they don't is a liar.......
The resting in Christ though is not from labor or works, because there are still works of the faith to be done.
Depending what a person's calling is depends on what their responsibilities is in the body (Church) !!!
The resting in Christ is from our problems, issues, worries, troubles, and such that we are to give over to Him completely to take care of. He has lifted a heavy load off my shoulders by doing this and lead me to be content with what I have and what life throws at me.
Do I still get worried sometimes? Yes we all do, but the Lord is there again to help me through !!!
(Hebrews 6:9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
These things we do in Christ (good deeds) accompany (at the same time) salvation, not follows after !!!
K
KennethC
Guest
I think you are a little confused to an extent here, because the reason the Law (Mosaic law) brings us to Christ is our failure to keep it and thus points out our sinful behaviors. Thus showing us a need for a Savior to help us overcome this wretched way of life.
It is our failure by ourselves to keep the written ordinances that leads us to needing the Lord !!!
Once a person has come to the Lord Jesus Christ, His commandments to love encompasses all else and makes the walk easier and burden light. Because of instead of focusing on trying to keep over 600 ordinances, that is impossible to do, we only have to focus in walking in love.
That love in turn will establish (Romans 3:31) and uphold (Romans 13:9-10) those commands in the faith, not void them !!!
The Holy Spirit will guide is in keeping His commands and walking according to the teachings of Christ, He does not bring a different set of teachings to go by then what the Lord already gave. Neither did Apostle Paul !!!
I have never tried to prove myself to the Lord. I am not trying even today, because it is pointless.
We all are grateful and thankfull you found the Lord totally accepts you as you are and calls you His child.
All we on the traditional side of theology are saying, "and now the walk of change."
I would never describe it as hard, just different. I loose who I am because I become something else.
But it does have rules, discipline, obedience, mistakes, rebukes, humbling, exaltation, growth.
The problem is Joseph Prince does not have these things. He has another gospel entirely.
Whatever you found, and feel is exactly right, nothing ever is except Jesus.
Too much of the Joseph Prince teaching is from the enemy to be authorative. It is your choice who you follow, but what you follow will in the end make you what you become.
We are only here because our experience of the Lord is different to hyper-grace, it is that simple.
If that means you call us legalists, fine but it is not true, not even close.