Is This a Hyper-Grace Doctrine of Men FORUM?

[Grandpa]

I think you are a little confused to an extent here, because the reason the Law (Mosaic law) brings us to Christ is our failure to keep it and thus points out our sinful behaviors. Thus showing us a need for a Savior to help us overcome this wretched way of life.

It is our failure by ourselves to keep the written ordinances that leads us to needing the Lord !!!

Once a person has come to the Lord Jesus Christ, His commandments to love encompasses all else and makes the walk easier and burden light. Because of instead of focusing on trying to keep over 600 ordinances, that is impossible to do, we only have to focus in walking in love.

That love in turn will establish (Romans 3:31) and uphold (Romans 13:9-10) those commands in the faith, not void them !!!

The Holy Spirit will guide is in keeping His commands and walking according to the teachings of Christ, He does not bring a different set of teachings to go by then what the Lord already gave. Neither did Apostle Paul !!!

You can't perform the command to Love any easier than you could perform any of the other commands.

You are purposely confusing the Law with coming to Christ.

You know that the Law says Love God and Love your neighbor. So you are double minded.

So, in effect, you are saying we failed at the law so we needed someone to condense it for us so we could really follow it.

Nope. Our Rest in Christ is Real Rest.

Through the Holy Spirit, our New Heart and our New Faith in Him Alone.

Have you noticed that one of the fruit of the Spirit is Love? That's a gift from God. Rest.

We are given the Gift of Love when we come to Christ. Not a new command, and therefore condemnation when/if we don't measure up to His Perfect Love.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You can't perform the command to Love any easier than you could perform any of the other commands.

You are purposely confusing the Law with coming to Christ.

You know that the Law says Love God and Love your neighbor. So you are double minded.

So, in effect, you are saying we failed at the law so we needed someone to condense it for us so we could really follow it.

Nope. Our Rest in Christ is Real Rest.

Through the Holy Spirit, our New Heart and our New Faith in Him Alone.

Have you noticed that one of the fruit of the Spirit is Love? That's a gift from God. Rest.

We are given the Gift of Love when we come to Christ. Not a new command, and therefore condemnation when/if we don't measure up to His Perfect Love.

I think that is the heart of the issue, We can not measure up to his perfect standard of love, Thats why we can not be perfect, and why we are judged as sinners to begin with.

When we realise this, we realise our need for Grace, an humbly fall on our knees and come to Christ,

Until we realise this, we will continue in religion, or give up altogether, because we realise our life is meaningless..

 

[Grandpa]

I have never tried to prove myself to the Lord. I am not trying even today, because it is pointless.
We all are grateful and thankfull you found the Lord totally accepts you as you are and calls you His child.

All we on the traditional side of theology are saying, "and now the walk of change."
I would never describe it as hard, just different. I loose who I am because I become something else.
But it does have rules, discipline, obedience, mistakes, rebukes, humbling, exaltation, growth.

The problem is Joseph Prince does not have these things. He has another gospel entirely.
Whatever you found, and feel is exactly right, nothing ever is except Jesus.

Too much of the Joseph Prince teaching is from the enemy to be authorative. It is your choice who you follow, but what you follow will in the end make you what you become.

We are only here because our experience of the Lord is different to hyper-grace, it is that simple.
If that means you call us legalists, fine but it is not true, not even close.

Our experience with the Lord must be looked at through the lens of scripture.

That is what Joseph Prince does.

You look at the experience with the Lord through your work and self-effort. It means you only understand half of scripture.


What do you have that wasn't freely given? How did you receive it? It's all Grace. That is our experience with the Lord. Without Him we can do nothing.

 

[KennethC]

You can't perform the command to Love any easier than you could perform any of the other commands.

You are purposely confusing the Law with coming to Christ.

You know that the Law says Love God and Love your neighbor. So you are double minded.

So, in effect, you are saying we failed at the law so we needed someone to condense it for us so we could really follow it.

Nope. Our Rest in Christ is Real Rest.

Through the Holy Spirit, our New Heart and our New Faith in Him Alone.

Have you noticed that one of the fruit of the Spirit is Love? That's a gift from God. Rest.

We are given the Gift of Love when we come to Christ. Not a new command, and therefore condemnation when/if we don't measure up to His Perfect Love.

I am not confusing the Mosaic law with coming to Christ, that is your false assertion !!!

This is why you have been mislead a little because you think every command Jesus gave puts one under the Mosaic law, that is not correct in any shape or form. When Jesus gave a command it is to be what is followed under His Perfect Law of Liberty !!!

The Liberty we have in Christ has conditions to it, and Paul states this very clearly when he says "do not use liberty for the opportunity of the flesh." <----This means not use liberty to continue to sin !!!

Love the way Christ set forth does come from the Holy Spirit, and again though this Love will show out in our actions, speech, and treatment of others. It is not something that is done just internal and not shown externally !!!

Apostle Paul even states that LOVE is greater then faith (1 Corinthians 13:13), well if faith in Christ is what saves how can love be greater ??? Because our faith in Christ hangs on love, without love as the Apostle John stated the Truth (1 John 2:4) and eternal life (1 John 3:15) is not in us !!!

Apostle John says if a person claims to know Jesus but does not do what He commanded, they are a liar and the Truth is not in them !!!

 

[Nautilus]

So youre solution to the too many hyper grace threads is to make a thread complaining about hyper grace? Brilliant! Honestly this forum is the only place I've even seen the term, I thought the whole thing was made up by people on here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have never tried to prove myself to the Lord. I am not trying even today, because it is pointless.

I am sorry, I am not trying to be mean, just honest.

How can you say you are not doing this when you proclaim eternal salvation is based on how well you do this and if you do not do it well, or at all you will lose salvation?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I really like you HRFTD. Sincerely. I think we would really get along quite well.

But I respectfully think you have your understanding of coming to Christ and resting in His Work at a complete 180 degrees.

It took a tremendous amount of work and humility and hardship for me to come to Christ. 5 yrs of complete focus on the Lord and His Word with very little distraction. Even though my whole life was falling apart. Trying to be completely perfect in all things.

Coming to Christ took this heavy burden away. Pretty much all of it.

Now my work of "righteousness" in the Lord is simply trying to show others what I have learned and experienced. Which is come to the Lord Jesus Christ and He will give you Rest. He is the source of ALL of our blessing.

Can I get an Amen? lol

I like and respect you, too. The difference between us, I think, is that I never had the legalism baggage. N.E.V.E.R. I have always sought to walk in the spirit of his grace, and eschewed anything else assiduously; possibly to my own detriment at times to avoid becoming legalistic, which I abhorred.

But what I have to come to realize over the years is that we are commanded to do things; not to prove ourselves worthy, but to grow.

So my issue with new.modern.hyper grace is its lawless spirit that claims we don't have to do anything.

Do you see the difference? If we don't do, we don't grow. But that's not necessarily fatal. However, following a lawless spirit that tells us not to do anything is potentially fatal.

"Hath GOD really said to believe and do? Nay, but he knows that when you rest and simply identify with him ye shall be as gods!"

 

[Grace777x70]

LOL...so true..and the term was made up by men...good one!

So youre solution to the too many hyper grace threads is to make a thread complaining about hyper grace? Brilliant! Honestly this forum is the only place I've even seen the term, I thought the whole thing was made up by people on here.

 

[PeterJens]

Our experience with the Lord must be looked at through the lens of scripture.

That is what Joseph Prince does.
You look at the experience with the Lord through your work and self-effort. It means you only understand half of scripture.
What do you have that wasn't freely given? How did you receive it? It's all Grace. That is our experience with the Lord. Without Him we can do nothing.

You sound like a nice guy. What I find interesting spiritually is how we can worship the same Lord, yet not see the same realities?

What makes me convinced you are in some kind of delusion, because you have no sense of different walks and experiences in the Lord. People vary tremendously and project lots of ideas while behaving according to various impulses and drives.

Rather than taking my words at face value, I am the enemy, in a place of condemnation. That is because you see me through your propoganda concepts. These are always very powerful as testified to by many here.

Can a christian once truly walking with Jesus get deluded like this?

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2 Thess 2:11

So it would appear this kind of delusion which exalts wickedness as acceptable is part of the rise of the enemy.

I had wondered how muslims felt the way they do, and was surprised by there dedication to a single line of thought.
Nothing here appears any different. If knowledge of scripture all the words ideas can be turned so thoroughly it is a wonder to know how we ever stay on the road except by His grace. That is also very ironic.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You sound like a nice guy. What I find interesting spiritually is how we can worship the same Lord, yet not see the same realities?

What makes me convinced you are in some kind of delusion, because you have no sense of different walks and experiences in the Lord. People vary tremendously and project lots of ideas while behaving according to various impulses and drives.

Rather than taking my words at face value, I am the enemy, in a place of condemnation. That is because you see me through your propoganda concepts. These are always very powerful as testified to by many here.

Can a christian once truly walking with Jesus get deluded like this?

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
2 Thess 2:11

So it would appear this kind of delusion which exalts wickedness as acceptable is part of the rise of the enemy.

I had wondered how muslims felt the way they do, and was surprised by there dedication to a single line of thought.
Nothing here appears any different. If knowledge of scripture all the words ideas can be turned so thoroughly it is a wonder to know how we ever stay on the road except by His grace. That is also very ironic.

You ever think the reason you can not see what Granpa is speaking of. and what he believes is the way one should walk. Is because Grandpa is focused on what one must do to get saved, not what one does after he is saved?

 

[KennethC]

So youre solution to the too many hyper grace threads is to make a thread complaining about hyper grace? Brilliant! Honestly this forum is the only place I've even seen the term, I thought the whole thing was made up by people on here.

You right here though hit the nail on the head, that people follow all sorts of man made doctrines...........

Pretty much any term or ism you can think of was started by man and not the Word of God, and that includes eternal security, OSAS, Calvinism, and the like. All terms made up by man and each one of them have gone through doctrinal changes since they were started, and some are just adaptations of the others with minor to major differences !!!

If these doctrine's was sound and true to begin with why the need for all the changes over the years ???

A sound doctrine would have no need to change what it teaches, and thus even change it's name constantly if it was true !!!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You right here though hit the nail on the head, that people follow all sorts of man made doctrines...........

Pretty much any term or ism you can think of was started by man and not the Word of God, and that includes eternal security, OSAS, Calvinism, and the like. All terms made up by man and each one of them have gone through doctrinal changes since they were started, and some are just adaptations of the others with minor to major differences !!!

If these doctrine's was sound and true to begin with why the need for all the changes over the years ???

A sound doctrine would have no need to change what it teaches, and thus even change it's name constantly if it was true !!!

again, I have to just laugh.

Eternally secure people do not have to change our doctrines, we just have to follow the word of god and agree and trust that God is faithful to keep his promise.

 

[PeterJens]

You ever think the reason you can not see what Granpa is speaking of. and what he believes is the way one should walk. Is because Grandpa is focused on what one must do to get saved, not what one does after he is saved?

EG I never said I cannot see what Grandpa is speaking of. I know exactly what he means and I disagree.

Or is this idea too difficult for you to grasp, people knowing what you mean, and what you have experienced and not agreeing?

Faith and interpretation is very subjective. My greatest challenge in my spiritual life was how to convey the love I had for Jesus into words and actions in the power of Christ.

Now I am amazed at how this idea has become so destructive in the hands of propoganda and a false sense of hatred towards righteousness. But then I am merely a mortal in the hands of God and history. But I just praise and honour Him.

Time will tell whether this is a small flash in the pan or the beginning of the end.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG I never said I cannot see what Grandpa is speaking of. I know exactly what he means and I disagree.

Or is this idea too difficult for you to grasp, people knowing what you mean, and what you have experienced and not agreeing?

Faith and interpretation is very subjective. My greatest challenge in my spiritual life was how to convey the love I had for Jesus into words and actions in the power of Christ.

Now I am amazed at how this idea has become so destructive in the hands of propoganda and a false sense of hatred towards righteousness. But then I am merely a mortal in the hands of God and history. But I just praise and honour Him.

Time will tell whether this is a small flash in the pan or the beginning of the end.

These are your words.

What makes me convinced you are in some kind of delusion, because you have no sense of different walks and experiences in the Lord. People vary tremendously and project lots of ideas while behaving according to various impulses and drives.

This proves you do not have any understanding of What Grandpa teaches, Because I have seen him explain the different walks and things we must do to walk a certain way many many times..

Your problem is your going off a score card system that was taught to you.. you see He teaches this gospel. so he must teach this.

Instead of actually sitting and listening to everything he says..

 

[Willie-T]

So youre solution to the too many hyper grace threads is to make a thread complaining about hyper grace? Brilliant! Honestly this forum is the only place I've even seen the term, I thought the whole thing was made up by people on here.

Many of the things people attack on here are issues you really have to spend time hunting for. I honestly think some people spend more time looking for things to put down than they do lifting God up.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Sounds like it's time for "10 ways to spot a legalist", again.



1. They cheapen grace by focusing on what we must do rather than on what Christ has done.


2. They’ll say nonsensical things like, “Salvation is free, but it will cost you everything you have.”


3. They are “fruit inspectors” and hypothesize how much spiritual fruit a person must produce in order to truly be saved.


4. They focus on things like turning, trying and crying instead of faith alone in Christ alone for salvation.


5. Their “gospel” could never be falsely accused of being a license to sin (like Paul’s was in Romans 3:8!)


6. They scare others with assertions that, if you preach too much grace, people will run amok


7. They conveniently avoid or misexegete large portions of gospel-centric New Testament books like Galatians, Romans and John.


8. They blend justification passages with sanctification passages, and then try to get us to drink a heresy smoothie.


9. They bake the same works-based righteousness cake that Mormons and Muslims do, but cover it with evangelical frosting.

10. They use the phrase, “You mean to tell me … ” a lot. Then they create worst case salvation scenarios of those who claim to be Christians, but abuse the grace of God. “You mean to tell me that someone can be saved and still … ?”



- Courtesy of Greg Stier of Dare2Share Ministries

 

[Willie-T]

Sounds like it's time for "10 ways to spot a legalist", again.

9. They bake the same works-based righteousness cake that Mormons and Muslims do, but cover it with evangelical frosting.

- Courtesy of Greg Stier of Dare2Share Ministries

Wow! #9 is frighteningly accurate.

 

[Grace777x70]

I agree..they "Christianize" it....make mental assent....but in reality and deed are doing the very opposite...

Wow! #9 is frighteningly accurate.

 

[PeterJens]

Sounds like it's time for "10 ways to spot a legalist", again.
2. They’ll say nonsensical things like, “Salvation is free, but it will cost you everything you have.”

Any person who claims to follow Jesus but does not know the meaning of the phrase

"Salvation is free, but it will cost you everything you have"

To me does not know what salvation is. If this makes me a legalist, then amen, hallelujah.

If living righteously is the sign of Jesus living in me, then amen, hallelujah.

If through my struggles with self and myself I turn in humbleness to the Lord, then amen, hallelujah.

So many non-christians have filled the "spirit filled" church, they do not know what they speak of or the Christ they follow.
No follower can cheapen grace or love, it is why we walk, why we suffer, why we wait, why we sacrifice and truly give to bring glory to His name.

An immediate sign of how un-christian people are is to pick up a phrase

"Salvation is free, but it will cost you everything you have"

and not know what it means. To those who understand you know exactly what I mean.
We stand among unbelievers. It is like a sign coming from the Lord, know by their words what they believe and know.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here in lies the rub in all this...we have no life outside of Christ....He is our life...we are in union with Him

Galatians 2:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Colossians 3:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.