Is This a Hyper-Grace Doctrine of Men FORUM?

[eternally-gratefull]

Any person who claims to follow Jesus but does not know the meaning of the phrase

"Salvation is free, but it will cost you everything you have"

To me does not know what salvation is. If this makes me a legalist, then amen, hallelujah.

If living righteously is the sign of Jesus living in me, then amen, hallelujah.

If through my struggles with self and myself I turn in humbleness to the Lord, then amen, hallelujah.

So many non-christians have filled the "spirit filled" church, they do not know what they speak of or the Christ they follow.
No follower can cheapen grace or love, it is why we walk, why we suffer, why we wait, why we sacrifice and truly give to bring glory to His name.

An immediate sign of how un-christian people are is to pick up a phrase

"Salvation is free, but it will cost you everything you have"

and not know what it means. To those who understand you know exactly what I mean.
We stand among unbelievers. It is like a sign coming from the Lord, know by their words what they believe and know.

Yes, that is what makes you a legalistic, and why you reject eternal security in Christ.
Anyone who does not say.

Salvation is free, But Cost God everything he had"

Is a legalist. and boasting on self (like you just did) not God.

You have your life, You have you family, You have your house, your job, your friends, You have wealth (even if you do not agree, compared to all people on earth, you are very wealthy)

So do not be so boastfull and say your salvation cost you all you have, because it has not..


Luke 18:22
So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

You have not done this, so according to Jesus, you have not earned eternal life.

 

[KennethC]

Many of the things people attack on here are issues you really have to spend time hunting for. I honestly think some people spend more time looking for things to put down than they do lifting God up.

You see though part of the teachings in the Word of God tells us to be ready in season and out of season to give sound doctrine and squash false teaching when we see it.

But there is a way to this and the demeaning, belittling, condemning, and attacking one's character behind their back approach that some take is not the proper way to do this !!!

How is one to squash false teaching if they have personally never did any research on it and instead just go by what others have told them down the line ???

I have personally researched the two doctrine's of eternal security and OSAS and have found out when they were started and by who, and also the false quotes made by those who started these.

I have to admit I have not dug into Hyper-Grace in much detail yet, but what I have heard so far of this doctrines seems to be another revamped version of OSAS. It separates itself from that doctrine in some ways but still sticks to the lies taught in that doctrine in other areas !!!

This doctrine changing form and name over time can be compared to the Protestant vs. Catholic situation, yes the Protestant church separated itself from some of the lies taught in Catholicism, but in other places still stick some of the other lies !!!

Nobody is perfect, but the doctrine we follow should be perfect and sound because it comes from the Lord our God Himself !!!

If it has to change what it teaches and change names over the years to make a new doctrine, then it is not from God !!!

 

[DP]

Hebrews 4:2-3
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


People seem to be confused about what it takes to come to Christ and what happens after.

Grace or "hyper" Grace is solely talking to people who have come to Christ. A person can't know it, can't understand it if they haven't experienced it for themselves.

That statement in bold is exactly one of the elitist philosophies men of the world use to try and exalt themselves into some special group, trying to make others want to be a part of it. God's grace is given all those in Christ Jesus who do their best to keep their walk with Him. Fall away from Him back into a sinful life and see how fast that puts you back in danger with bondage to the law, because not all of God's laws went away like you may think. Go out and murder and steal and see how fast you leave His grace.

It's that kind thinking which Hyper-Grace philosophy uses to trick the believer back into a sinful life.

 

[PeterJens]

Yes, that is what makes you a legalistic, and why you reject eternal security in Christ. Anyone who does not say.
Salvation is free, But Cost God everything he had"

I did give up all my security and went on the mission field risking everything I was to follow Christ.
Now the spiritual walk is to lay all before the Lord and for Him to give back what he desires.

Some of the people I met had to give up their families, their country and flee for their lives to follow Jesus.
It is not a boast it is a simple choice.

I am shocked at the depths you will go to. In all my own sense of self worth or things I respected I gave up for the Lord.
I wonder which world you live in and the anger in your words. You are like the enemy putting me on trial.

Well praise the Lord that I have walked the path I have and can testify to His glorious name, Amen and hallelujah.

I know who I am, and who my Lord is, so amen to His great victory. There is no gain by the way you talk, because it is all missplaced. I cannot hold it against you, because you do not know who you are speaking to, or your flaying in the dark as if it is cutting me to my heart. I would happily die for Jesus, because He is seated at the right hand of the Father.

Sometimes I would rather be taken than face these absurd situations. But in the Lords good time.

You may realise I am not boasting in anything, I just testify to who I am. I am though pitiable, poor and wretched.
So I wonder who you are or what is your accusation, because it gets you no where, other than bring me reward with the Father, glory to His great Name, "Worthy, worthy, worthy is the lamb who was slain"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I did give up all my security and went on the mission field risking everything I was to follow Christ.
Now the spiritual walk is to lay all before the Lord and for Him to give back what he desires.

Some of the people I met had to give up their families, their country and flee for their lives to follow Jesus.
It is not a boast it is a simple choice.

I am shocked at the depths you will go to. In all my own sense of self worth or things I respected I gave up for the Lord.

You said you must give everything away, now your back tracking and saying you did not have to give everything away. Which is it??

I wonder which world you live in and the anger in your words. You are like the enemy putting me on trial.

Well praise the Lord that I have walked the path I have and can testify to His glorious name, Amen and hallelujah.

I know who I am, and who my Lord is, so amen to His great victory. There is no gain by the way you talk, because it is all missplaced. I cannot hold it against you, because you do not know who you are speaking to, or your flaying in the dark as if it is cutting me to my heart. I would happily die for Jesus, because He is seated at the right hand of the Father.

Sometimes I would rather be taken than face these absurd situations. But in the Lords good time.

You may realise I am not boasting in anything, I just testify to who I am. I am though pitiable, poor and wretched.
So I wonder who you are or what is your accusation, because it gets you no where, other than bring me reward with the Father, glory to His great Name, "Worthy, worthy, worthy is the lamb who was slain"

I live in a world where people like you say things like one must give up everything they have to be saved, then when confronted about it, and even, when posting scripture saying your correct.. and prove how you di dnot do what ytou claimed one must do..

you Back track, and say you did not have to give up everything, You meant something else..

That is why your gospel is so easy to see through, It has no meaning, it is full of lies. So it easily is confronted..

Sad thing is, Prety much everyone here can see it but you (I did not say everyone, so do not lie about me again please)

 

[PeterJens]

You said you must give everything away, now your back tracking and saying you did not have to give everything away. Which is it??

The phrase "Salvation is free, but it costs everything." obviously means nothing to you.

To many believers it expresses the accepting of Jesus is defeat of everything we hold dear within. It is putting everything you have on the table and waiting for the Lord to show the next steps.

I am sad you call this lies.

It is an unexpected response. You call this backtracking, but the phrase reflects what is going on inside a person.

I cannot put things simpler. I can do nothing to help you or your bitterness within.

You still have not made anything clearer to me. Now going on the mission field was giving up everything.
The danger was very real. We went through Iran in the middle of the Iranian revolution, skipping between riots.

Now I suppose I could have actually died to prove your point. There is no end to your disappointment in putting me in a corner. I doubt anything I write will help you. You are like a lion trying to rip me to pieces. May the Lord open your eyes and release you from your distortions, Amen.

 

[Grace777x70]

Maybe we should let the Holy Spirit deal with all of us in whatever area He deems is fit for us individually? I don't see any fruit coming from these endless talks here. Some believe one way and some another.

The endless debates are useless and are really causing divisions amongst us which should not be. We should just "allow" the other to have the freedom to believe however they are inclined. This "attacking" each other and calling names and having malice towards another and slandering each other and leaders in the body of Christ must stop.

I for one am leaning towards just leaving the information and let the Holy Spirit show the people interested what He wants them to know about any area. If someone has a legitimate question , then that is fine and can be asked in a loving, respectful way..then those I will answer.

We can trust Him to reveal Jesus to us.

I just want people to have another view other then the so-called traditional view and the other side should be free to say what they want too as well. They too can leave websites or blogs for people to access to determine within themselves things.

I tend to think what Gamaliel had to say about disputes with the apostles might be appropriate here.

Acts 5:38-40 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown;
[SUP]39 [/SUP] but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."
[SUP]40 [/SUP] They took his advice; and after calling the apostles in, they flogged them and ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and then released them.

Let's all be willing to take a final flogging from both groups and then leave it in the Lord's mighty hands...we are all brothers and want to grow in the grace and knowledge of out Lord Jesus. Let's lift Him up. He is our Life!

 

[Grandpa]

That statement in bold is exactly one of the elitist philosophies men of the world use to try and exalt themselves into some special group, trying to make others want to be a part of it. God's grace is given all those in Christ Jesus who do their best to keep their walk with Him. Fall away from Him back into a sinful life and see how fast that puts you back in danger with bondage to the law, because not all of God's laws went away like you may think. Go out and murder and steal and see how fast you leave His grace.

It's that kind thinking which Hyper-Grace philosophy uses to trick the believer back into a sinful life.

The truth is the truth.

If you haven't been given the Revelation of Christ then you still have the veil over your mind.

The Bible states this as fact. Not conjecture.

Doing your best doesn't necessarily bring you to Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:14-17
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.


Mitspa hit the nail on the head when he said all those who reject Grace have placed themselves under the law in one form or another.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The phrase "Salvation is free, but it costs everything." obviously means nothing to you.

See your lying again, It means everything to me, It Cost God everything.

To many believers it expresses the accepting of Jesus is defeat of everything we hold dear within. It is putting everything you have on the table and waiting for the Lord to show the next steps.

There is only one step. Faith in Christ, now it may take some things to get us to repent and place this faiht in God. but that is the one things which saves us..

If your trying steps.. Your still trying to do it of your own power. and not relying in the power of God..

I am sad you call this lies.

It is a lie. the same lie romanism teaches, and phariseism tought,, It is also taught by Islam, Mormons, and many other religions around the world.

It is an unexpected response. You call this backtracking, but the phrase reflects what is going on inside a person.

You said, it cost everything,, You either meant it or you did not..

Then when confronted, you changed, and claimed you did not mean everything..

You can not have it both ways my friend. that is being deceptive..

I cannot put things simpler. I can do nothing to help you or your bitterness within.

Bitter? Me? I am saved by Grace, and will one day meat my savior faith to face,, He is my Abba, I am not bitter at all. I am saddened to the heart that you can not see what your doing though.. and i am angry at satan for lieing to you and not allowing you to see what you are doing.

You still have not made anything clearer to me. Now going on the mission field was giving up everything.
The danger was very real. We went through Iran in the middle of the Iranian revolution, skipping between riots.

Are you still homeless?

thats what I thought.. Many people go on mission fields. it does not mean they are any more saved than a person who never went on a mission field..

see how your reasoning keeps coming back to bite you.. You think you have an answer but you do not..

Now I suppose I could have actually died to prove your point. There is no end to your disappointment in putting me in a corner. I doubt anything I write will help you. You are like a lion trying to rip me to pieces. May the Lord open your eyes and release you from your distortions, Amen.

No, that would not prove my point either, You already were dead, That was your penalty for your sin,, You dieing physically would not pay for that sin, any more than you giving up everything would help you to pay for the tiniest of sins you ever committed.

The payment was the cross.. Not things you gave up. or did. Those are useless.

Thats the point, Your salvation cost YOU NOTHING, YOU WERE ALREADY DEAD. and COULD NOT PAY YOUR OWN DEBT..

It Cost God everything, When you realise, and admit this,, Then, maybe then, can you say you understand what the true grace and love of God means.

Until then...

 

[DP]

The truth is the truth.

If you haven't been given the Revelation of Christ then you still have the veil over your mind.

The Bible states this as fact. Not conjecture.

Doing your best doesn't necessarily bring you to Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:14-17
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.


Mitspa hit the nail on the head when he said all those who reject Grace have placed themselves under the law in one form or another.

But no believer here has rejected Christ's grace except those little fabrications in your own mind.

Like Apostle Paul taught, Christ's death and resurrection was for the remission of sins PAST. We still need to repent to Christ of sins we may commit in the future, and that according to 1 John 1.

Read Paul's rebuke of the Corinthians starting in 1 Cor.5, and you should see what I'm talking about. Then see 2 Cor.7.

 

[kohelet]

That's terrible advice, because everything Michael Brown addresses isn't being proposed by the "modern grace movement."

But Ben, we were just referred to Paul Ellis' blog, where he writes:

In a recent CharismaNews article, Dr. Michael Brown confronts what he calls the “dangerous error” of the hyper-grace movement. He describes the foundational doctrines of this movement as follows; (1) we have been made righteous by the blood of Jesus, (2) all our sins have been forgiven, (3) the Holy Spirit never convicts believers of sin, and (4) we need never repent for nor confess our sins.

Although I would qualify the last point, Dr. Brown has done a fair job summarizing the gospel that we in the grace movement proclaim.

 

[Stephen63]

1 Corinthians 9:27 (NASB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (NLT)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]I discipline my body like an athlete, training it to do what it should. Otherwise, I fear that after preaching to others I myself might be disqualified.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (NRSV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (TEV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP]I harden my body with blows and bring it under complete control, to keep myself from being disqualified after having called others to the contest.

 

[Willie-T]

I suggest reading "Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Movement" by Dr. Michael L. Brown. Not saying you have to agree with all or any of what he writes, but he presents a case against hyper-grace and its contemporary proponents.

That's terrible advice, because everything Michael Brown addresses isn't being proposed by the "modern grace movement." Its like setting up a straw man and tearing it down, that is what that book is. He shares a misconception of hyper-grace and tries to refute it, yet grace preachers aren't preaching what he accuses them of. I suppose that's why this book was written...

[h=1]The Hyper-Grace Gospel: A Response to Michael Brown and Those Opposed to the Modern Grace Message by Paul Ellis.[/h]

I'm sorry, but I have to chuckle at all this hoopla about Michael Brown.
I wonder how many people know that Michael Brown is actually a "Grace Preacher" who just thinks some people have gotten off track. If some people here found out that he was a leader of The Brownsville Revival (that horrible nest of crazy tongue-talkers and people falling on the floor, etc.) for four (4) years straight, they would probably die of mortified embarrassment.

 

[Grace777x70]

Interesting...isn't this Dr. brown the same guy that that MacArthur guy said was into "strange fire"?..

I'm sorry, but I have to chuckle at all this hoopla about Michael Brown.
I wonder how many people know that Michael Brown is actually a "Grace Preacher" who just thinks some people have gotten off track. If some people here found out that he was a leader of The Brownsville Revival (that horrible nest of crazy tongue-talkers and people falling on the floor, etc.) for four (4) years straight, they would probably die of mortified embarrassment.

 

[Willie-T]

I suggest reading "Hyper-Grace: Exposing the Dangers of the Modern Grace Movement" by Dr. Michael L. Brown. Not saying you have to agree with all or any of what he writes, but he presents a case against hyper-grace and its contemporary proponents.

Interesting...isn't this Dr. brown the same guy that that MacArthur guy said was into "strange fire"?..

Yep, the very same guy.

 

[Willie-T]

It just seems to be a game of "Pick the guy who will help me make someone look bad if I use the right article or book from them."

 

[Grace777x70]

another "heretic"....lol..it is so funny how we all call someone who doesn't believe what we believe a heretic..

Yep, the very same guy.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes...and all in the so-called name of defending the faith.....

It just seems to be a game of "Pick the guy who will help me make someone look bad if I use the right article or book from them."

 

[Willie-T]

Seems like a "Hairy Tick" just might be found in anyone's bed.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'm sorry, but I have to chuckle at all this hoopla about Michael Brown.
I wonder how many people know that Michael Brown is actually a "Grace Preacher" who just thinks some people have gotten off track. If some people here found out that he was a leader of The Brownsville Revival (that horrible nest of crazy tongue-talkers and people falling on the floor, etc.) for four (4) years straight, they would probably die of mortified embarrassment.

I doubt that there are more than a few here who know about M. Brown. I knew about his role at Pensacola, and didn't like him for it. However, except for the hyper grace name he helped popularize, I respect the work he's done exposing it.