Is Ultimate Release from Hell Possible?

[crossnote]

Does the NT allow the possibility of ultimate postmortem release from Hell?

NO.

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
(Rev 14:9-11)

 

[Waggles]

do you believe in a pre-trib rapture?

No - all "Christians" will go through the tribulation and then there will be a sifting of the wheat and the chaff.

Waggles comes from the Aussie humour of making puns and nick names concerning a person's appearance or their legal name.
Then I discovered to my horror that there is a petcare chain of stores in the U.S. trademarked 'WAGGLES'
If only I had known.

 

[Journeyman]

Journeyman,
First, you don't get to exclude secondary lessons of Jesus' parable of the 2 servants simply because the primary lesson is different. One secondary lesson is that the unforgiving servant is neither executed nor given a life sentence; rather he is consigned to debtor's prison "until he should pay back all he owed (Matthew 18:34)." This place of torture is an image of Gehenna and the implication is that the debt can theoretically be paid. Your claim that he can't ignores Jesus' routine use of Semitic hyperbole and is in any case not stated in the text.
Second, Paul's use of "the day" in 1 Corinthians 3:13 leaves unclear whether he has in mind a preliminary judgement at death or the final judgment. But even if you are corect, that does not mean that the believers in question can't be retrieved from Gehenna and be "saved, yet so as by fire." Indeed, the rabbinic use of this expression points in that direction and Paul, as an ex-Pharisee can be presumed to use the same language that he once used prior to his conversion.

My friend, I don't believe in torment until infinity, but there is no doubt the unforgiving servant would die in that prison. This is why Jesus said,

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven. Lk.6:36-37

But there's no reason the unforgiving servant could not have a change of heart in prison and forgive his fellow servant, instead of trying to collect for a debt (millions of dollars) that could never be repaid. God is merciful to the repentant. If we desire God's mercy, we should desire it for others.

Even in the "the rich man and Lazarus" story, Jesus wasn't advocating torment without end. Abraham tells the rich man,

Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime Lk.16:25

And this is what the judgment seat of Christ is, an examination, an illumination of lives lived. This is why "torment forever and ever" refers to exposure of unforgiven sins (from "eternity past" if you will, all the sins of the unsaved from beginning to end). Satan himself will be turned to ash.

 

[John146]

And this is what the judgment seat of Christ is, an examination, an illumination of lives lived. This is why "torment forever and ever" refers to exposure of unforgiven sins (from "eternity past" if you will, all the sins of the unsaved from beginning to end). Satan himself will be turned to ash.

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Hell is a real place of torment with flames of fire.

Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

 

[crossnote]

My friend, I don't believe in torment until infinity, but there is no doubt the unforgiving servant would die in that prison. This is why Jesus said,

There is no such thing as 'torment unto infinity', it is called FOREVER.

Revelation 14:9-11 NKJV
[9] Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, [10] he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [11] And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Besides, who should we believe, ourselves, or the One who made heaven and hell?

 

[Journeyman]

He cites Zechariah 13:7 -

"Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, And against the man, My Associate," declares the LORD of Hosts. "Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones. "​

​

isn't it after all, the LORD who does the striking? He lays down His life, and no one takes it from Him

That's right,

Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake. Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy. No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD. Isa.54:15-17

 

[Journeyman]

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Hell is a real place of torment with flames of fire.

Hell, spiritually speaking (Hades, the abode of the dead), is a state people are in apart from Christ.

ye have no life in you. Jn.6:53, the congregation of the dead. Pro.21:16, who were dead Eph.2:1, let the dead bury their dead. Mt.8:22

Too many to list, but when "the dead" face Jesus in judgment, their torment will be the result of having their sins laid bare. But that torment will end when their bodies, still corruptable and their minds, not eternal are consumed.

Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Yes, the resurrection is a matter of reaping what we sowed. Sowed before death, not after.

 

[Journeyman]

There is no such thing as 'torment unto infinity', it is called FOREVER.

Revelation 14:9-11 NKJV
[9] Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, [10] he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [11] And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Besides, who should we believe, ourselves, or the One who made heaven and hell?

We should believe the Bible, when it says devil worshippers have no rest day or night. I know I didn't before faith in Jesus. In fact, the more I walk with the Lord, experiencing his peace, I didn't fully know how tormented I was.

The "mark" is just affirmation, agreement with the devil that someone wants nothing to do with the Lord. They will be tormented in the presence of the heavenly host as their lives are exposed as the vapor they were.

 

[John146]

Hell, spiritually speaking (Hades, the abode of the dead), is a state people are in apart from Christ.

ye have no life in you. Jn.6:53, the congregation of the dead. Pro.21:16, who were dead Eph.2:1, let the dead bury their dead. Mt.8:22

Too many to list, but when "the dead" face Jesus in judgment, their torment will be the result of having their sins laid bare. But that torment will end when their bodies, still corruptable and their minds, not eternal are consumed.

Yes, the resurrection is a matter of reaping what we sowed. Sowed before death, not after.

Hell is not simply "separation" from God. The new versions make it seem not so bad. Hell is hell fire, torment in flames. We should be preaching hell not separation.

 

[crossnote]

We should believe the Bible, when it says devil worshippers have no rest day or night. I know I didn't before faith in Jesus. In fact, the more I walk with the Lord, experiencing his peace, I didn't fully know how tormented I was.

The "mark" is just affirmation, agreement with the devil that someone wants nothing to do with the Lord. They will be tormented in the presence of the heavenly host as their lives are exposed as the vapor they were.

The issue I raised was concerning your statement " I don't believe in torment until infinity ", which seems to mean you don't believe that Christ rejecters will suffer torment forever... IS this true?

 

[Journeyman]

Hell is not simply "separation" from God. The new versions make it seem not so bad. Hell is hell fire, torment in flames. We should be preaching hell not separation.

I'm sure unbelievers will be tormented in flame. I simply believe the torment is the result of facing the truth about themselves in the light of Jesus Christ. After this the ungodly will be annihilated.

John146, I have a question for you. It's a question I've asked a number of people their opinion about on this website, on other websites, in different churches and other Christian gatherings, but was never answered. Here's the question:

What's the difference between Rev.19:20 and 2Thes.2:8?

 

[Journeyman]

The issue I raised was concerning your statement " I don't believe in torment until infinity ", which seems to mean you don't believe that Christ rejecters will suffer torment forever... IS this true?

"Forever" defined as their entire lives, no. "Forever" defined as never ending, yes. I do not believe Christ rejecters will suffer torment without end.

 

[crossnote]

"Forever" defined as their entire lives, no. "Forever" defined as never ending, yes. I do not believe Christ rejecters will suffer torment without end.

I gave the passage I believe says they will suffer torment forever (without end) (Revelation 14:9-11 ).
Do you have a passage that says otherwise?

 

[Journeyman]

I gave the passage I believe says they will suffer torment forever (without end) (Revelation 14:9-11 ).
Do you have a passage that says otherwise?

I already answered that passage. Furthermore, being tormented without end in front of Jesus, the angels and no doubt the redeemed is nonsensical,

They will undergo the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength 2Thes.1:9

There are only two reasons in all of scripture why God punishes sinners. One is to correct them. The other is to put an end to them who refuse correction. God doesn't punish without reason.

And while I'm at it, can you answer the question I asked John146 in post #171?

 

[crossnote]

I already answered that passage. Furthermore, being tormented without end in front of Jesus, the angels and no doubt the redeemed is nonsensical,

It may be nonsensical to you but which reigns supreme, God's Word or your intellect?

They will undergo the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength 2Thes.1:9

This is not addressing the 'eternal' aspect of their torment.

There are only two reasons in all of scripture why God punishes sinners. One is to correct them. The other is to put an end to them who refuse correction. God doesn't punish without reason.

Are those your two reasons?

And while I'm at it, can you answer the question I asked John146 in post #171?

2 Thessalonians 2:8 NKJV
[8] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Revelation 19:20 NKJV
[20] Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

In Rev 19:17-20 it is referring to the beast and his armies at Armageddon, Jesus will destroy at His coming. That will be the first death for the antichrist. Then the beast and false prophet were cast into the Lake of Fire.

In 2Thess2:8 is also speaking about the destruction of antichrist and his armies.

Neither of those passages refer to the duration of torment.

 

[John146]

I'm sure unbelievers will be tormented in flame. I simply believe the torment is the result of facing the truth about themselves in the light of Jesus Christ. After this the ungodly will be annihilated.

John146, I have a question for you. It's a question I've asked a number of people their opinion about on this website, on other websites, in different churches and other Christian gatherings, but was never answered. Here's the question:

What's the difference between Rev.19:20 and 2Thes.2:8?

Certainly “that wicked” is linked to the Antichrist, his workers of iniquity, and the mystery of Babylon. Jesus Christ, at His second coming, will righteously execute genecide at the battle of Armageddon and bring judgment upon the Antichrist and all the nations of the world before Christ reigns a thousand years.

 

[Journeyman]

It may be nonsensical to you but which reigns supreme, God's Word or your intellect?

My old intellect is fading away. The Word of God has always reigned supreme. I'm learning that in ways I never knew.

This is not addressing the 'eternal' aspect of their torment.

Yes it is. The ungodly suffer "forever and ever" (that is, from the beginning of the old creation until the end of it), in the presence of the Lord, the holy angels and the redeemed as their sins are exposed at the judgment seat of Christ. This torment in the presence of Jesus doesn't go on eternally as you are interpreting Rev.14.

Are those your two reasons?

No. I'm learning by the Spirit of God in me and the Bible doesnt disagree.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 NKJV
[8] And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Revelation 19:20 NKJV
[20] Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

In Rev 19:17-20 it is referring to the beast and his armies at Armageddon, Jesus will destroy at His coming. That will be the first death for the antichrist. Then the beast and false prophet were cast into the Lake of Fire.

In 2Thess2:8 is also speaking about the destruction of antichrist and his armies.

Neither of those passages refer to the duration of torment.

The antichrist doesn't die a "first death" as you're claiming. He's "captured" and cast "alive" into the lake of fire. And the lake of fire is for the purpose of destroying. But Paul says antichrist is destroyed by the brightness of the presence of Jesus himself and by the Spirit of his mouth. You have a contradiction. I don't.

 

[Journeyman]

Certainly “that wicked” is linked to the Antichrist, his workers of iniquity, and the mystery of Babylon. Jesus Christ, at His second coming, will righteously execute genecide at the battle of Armageddon and bring judgment upon the Antichrist and all the nations of the world before Christ reigns a thousand years.

So is antichrist destroyed by the brightness of Christ, or the lake of fire?

And since you're mentioned it, when Jesus destroys antichrist and his followers (whose names were not written in the book of life Rev.13:8, 17:8), who is Jesus going to be reigning over after that?

 

[John146]

So is antichrist destroyed by the brightness of Christ, or the lake of fire?

And since you're mentioned it, when Jesus destroys antichrist and his followers (whose names were not written in the book of life Rev.13:8, 17:8), who is Jesus going to be reigning over after that?

He’s destroyed by Christ by casting him into the lake of fire.

The nations of the earth will be judged. See Matthew 25. Those who oppose and persecute Israel during the time of Jacob’s trouble will be cast into fire, aka the goats. Those who aided Israel, aka the sheep, will be ushered into the reign of Christ. The believing Jews will reign with their Messiah in Jerusalem. The returning bride of Christ, the Church, will reign over the nations of the earth. That’s my take.

 

[jacobay43]

This is what i believe from scriptures also..

The doctrine that people will be saved from the eternal Lake of Fire after they are cast into it on the day of the final judgement is just a ear tickling false doctrine.. Eternity is eternity, thats forever and ever..

Finally someone making sense